Discussing Expedition Campers and Crossing Jungles with Lance Gillies

Overland Journal Podcast Episode #25

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A Journey into Overlanding

Overlanding is more than a mode of travel; it’s a lifestyle, a philosophy of embracing the unknown and rediscovering the world through your own windshield. Scott and Lance kick off their conversation reminiscing about their early interactions, with Scott’s firsthand experience driving an EarthCruiser in Australia, marveling at its purpose-built nature for international travel.

Lessons from the Wild

Lance shares thrilling stories from his adventures, taking listeners to the heart of jungles and deserts worldwide. From the wild terrains of Northern Australia to the mystical lands of Mongolia, and the intense jungles of Borneo, his tales highlight not just the geographical feats, but the profound connections made with local communities and the sheer will needed to overcome nature’s hurdles.

One standout incursion was the east-to-west crossing of Kalimantan, Borneo. Lance recounts the logistical nightmare and ultimate triumph of threading through untouched jungles, river crossings, and the indomitable camaraderie forged with his fellow explorers.

The Overland Spirit

Through these expeditions, Lance explains overlanding as a pursuit of living in somebody else’s shoes, broadening one’s horizons, and the humility realized in understanding the labor and resilience of people in remote areas. His poignant recall of an incident in Senegal, where a misunderstanding revealed itself as a mutual respect moment between cultures, underscores the essence of what overlanding truly means.

Building the Ultimate Adventure Vehicle

Lance discusses the integral details of designing and constructing a vehicle capable of enduring global terrains. With a focus on livability and simplicity, he emphasizes that the ultimate vehicle should serve its owner, not the other way around. Lance speaks at length about practical modifications based on real-world scenarios, from winches to water capacity, that prepare vehicles for the most daunting situations.

The Future of EarthCruiser

In adapting to global shifts, EarthCruiser’s move to gasoline engines is rooted in practical realities—maintaining reliability and serviceability worldwide. Lance sheds light on the thought process behind this transition, aligning with international emissions regulations and ensuring travelers can access fuel anywhere on their journey.

Pearls of Wisdom

Both Scott and Lance share their reading inspirations that reflect their philosophies on life and travel. Lance’s recommendation, “Don’t Split the Difference,” offers insight into negotiating and truly understanding communication, a skill vital for travelers facing unfamiliar terrains and cultures. Scott’s favorite, “The Obstacle Is The Way,” reinforces resilience through adversity, resonating deeply with their shared travel ethos.

As the podcast draws to a close, Lance leaves listeners with imperative advice for budding overlanders: Be clear about your motivations. Whether your goal is discovery, self-reliance, or invoking passion for the unknown, authenticity lies at the heart of an enriching overlanding experience.

Scott Brady

Scott Brady

Scott Brady is an adventurer, author, and publisher, and the first person in history to cross all seven continents. Brady is executive publisher of the Overland Collective, home to Overland Journal, the Overland Journal Podcast, and expeditionportal.com—the world’s largest vehicle-dependent adventure community. Scott wrote Overlanding 101 (Simon & Schuster) and is currently riding around the world on his BMW GS. He also led Expeditions 7, the first expedition to drive the same vehicle on all seven continents. Brady’s polar crossings include Antarctica and a south–north crossing of the Greenland ice sheet. Scott is a fellow of the Explorers Club and lives in Prescott, Arizona.

Matt Scott

Matt is a leading expert in automotive adventure. He has extensively explored the world’s most remote places by 4WD and is considered an industry authority on overland travel. He is the only American to ever become an editor of a major Australian 4WD publication and has over 15 years of competitive auto racing experience. @mattexplore

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Our No Compromise Clause: We do not accept advertorial content or allow advertising to influence our coverage, and our contributors are guaranteed editorial independence. Overland Collective may earn a small commission from affiliate links included in this article. We appreciate your support.

Transcript

Scott Brady: [00:00:00] Hello and welcome to the Overland Journal Podcast. I’m your host, Scott Brady, and I am here with a good friend of mine and someone that I admire not only for the products that he produces, but the places that he has traveled in the world. I’ve got Lance Gillies with me. He is the founder and CEO of EarthCruiser, and we will talk a little bit about EarthCruisers today.

But we really wanna spend some time talking about Lance as a traveler, and also the things that he’s learned, not only as a traveler, but as a builder of expedition campers that I think will apply to a lot of the listeners. We can glean a lot of insights from someone who has spent, um, you know, decades traveling the world and building unique vehicles.

And Lance started off in Australia, and he has traveled… He’s done some significant expeditions, including one that we’re gonna spend some time talking about today, crossing, uh, Kalimantan and Borneo, uh, sticking within a few degrees of the equator, and that [00:01:00] was something that he just recently completed, and a very significant adventure in and of itself.

So thank you for being on the podcast, Lance.

Lance Gillies: Mate, thanks for having me. Yeah. You must be getting to the bottom of the barrel to get me here. It’s true.

Scott Brady: No, no. I- it is, it is a pleasure. It’s a pleasure to have you, and, and, uh, we first talked when… This was 2011, and w- you were, you were coming to the US- Yeah

with EarthCruiser. Mm-hmm. And, uh, we, we wanted to get a chance for me to get into one of your vehicles, and you arranged for one of your EarthCruisers to be available for me to drive in Fraser Island- That’s right, yeah … and around Australia. Yeah. And I had such an amazing time in that vehicle, and it really…

It showed me what was possible in a vehicle that was designed for true round-the-world international travel. And there was a lot that I learned from that, ’cause I’ve driven a lot of different campers, and it was unique to see something that was so purpose-built for that.

Lance Gillies: Sure.

Scott Brady: So very, very, very cool. And but I think one of the things that makes- you so notable in the industry is the fact that you not [00:02:00] only build campers, but you also are very well traveled yourself as an individual.

And, uh, one of the ones that you told me about, uh, just a few minutes ago was trying to make it to Cape York in the wet. So t- tell us how that went.

Lance Gillies: Uh, it went really well. I mean, this is a lifetime ago now, but yeah, so it was, uh, a, uh, just our little Hilux, nothing exciting, and we just really wanted to s- it was a see if you can moment.

And, uh- Sure … I forgot how many creek crossings. I forgot all about that- … sort of stuff. And, and, a- and look, you traveled Australia. I mean, those, some of those tracks people use to get the kids to school, right? Sure. So don’t be a moron and go and wreck people’s tracks. We’re very cap- you know, we, we think about that.

So but the, the old telegraph track, um, tried to follow the beach as much as we possibly could. All that sort of stuff was just, it was an adventure. We simply wanted to find out if we could. Uh, it, it was, um, yeah, swim across, um, with a winch cable on the other side, all that sort of stuff. Have your mate, ’cause I went with a mate, um, have a mate tie a [00:03:00] rope to you just because when those rivers start to go, and they really go- Sure

the first floods are really fast. All that. It’s fun. And

Scott Brady: how many ve- how many vehicles did you have?

Lance Gillies: Two. No, the, uh- And what, what

Scott Brady: vehicles

Lance Gillies: did you do it in? The other one was a, uh, not, not known here. It was Holden Rodeo. Okay. Uh, basically a little, uh, it’s kind of Isuzu Trooper sort of thing. Yeah, sure. Yeah, a little diesel motor.

Both are little diesels. Um, it was just, it was just fun. It was- Yeah … it’s what, to my mind, it’s supposed to be about. Right. You know? The trucks weren’t particularly special. I mean- Right … this is quite a while ago now. Trucks weren’t particularly special. W- it wasn’t about that. It was about just to see if we can, you know?

See if you can do it. And meet some… Yeah. You know, um, you know, we spent some really good times with Ab- Aboriginal communities in really remote places when other people don’t normally go. You know?

Scott Brady: Yeah,

Lance Gillies: wonderful

Scott Brady: people. Amazing people.

Lance Gillies: Oh, incredible. You know, learn something every day. It’s just- Yeah Again, big part of it for us is, is just doing that.

It w- it wasn’t, uh, it wasn’t that it was, um, you know, we wanted to be legends. We just, you just, you kind of wanna test yourself, [00:04:00] uh, but not in a silly way.

Scott Brady: Right.

Lance Gillies: Only because it’s just fun and- Yeah … and you don’t forget them. Yeah. You don’t, you know, I’m a, a, I’m big believer in that you remember the moments, not the years.

Scott Brady: Mm.

Lance Gillies: And then, and for me, that’s a big part of travel.

Scott Brady: Yeah, no- It

Lance Gillies: really is …

Scott Brady: no question. A- and, and it’s also, it adds an element of, of excitement when you’ve got to wade across this water crossing, but- Mm … it’s also filled with crocs. I think there’s been a, a lot of Germans that have been consumed by crocodiles in Northern- Yeah

Northern Australia.

Lance Gillies: Well, you know, there’s a, a, just for your listeners, a quick story about crocs. Don’t, if you’re gonna go fishing in, well, wherever the crocodiles are, I mean, not just in Australia, but quick story. I mean, I’m sure you’ve been told this, is that you never, ever go to the same water hole in the same place three times.

Scott Brady: Oh, okay.

Lance Gillies: He can see you, and he’ll let you go the first time. You go the second time, he goes, “All right.” Now he’s sized you up, and the third time you’re lunch. And so it, it’s a really, seriously. So you don’t ever- Interesting … don’t ever put your swag down the same place three times. Don’t do it. Don’t do it.

[00:05:00] Move it. Even if it’s the same campsite, move it. Um, a- a- if you’re going to, um, uh, go fishing, clearly don’t go and clean your fish where you’re just standing to be fishing.

Scott Brady: Oh,

Lance Gillies: sure. Don’t ever, you know, if you’re gonna go fill your water bottles- Got all the blood

Scott Brady: and everything else, yeah …

Lance Gillies: yeah, don’t go fill your water bottle.

I mean, anyway, but, you know, don’t go and clean your pots and pans in the th- same place three times. Don’t do it.

Scott Brady: Sure.

Lance Gillies: Don’t do it. Don’t do it.

Scott Brady: Well, and that’s, it’s the same in Africa, too. I remember I was, I was on a, a friend’s farm, big farm near the Kruger. Yeah. And it was this beautiful r- and it was a hot day.

Yeah. And it was this, and it, there was a lot of white water and everything. I’m thinking, “There’s no way there’s gonna be crocs and stuff up here.” And so I get working down a little bit closer to the river, and I start throwing rocks into the, into the various pools and stuff. And sure enough, here goes a tail- Mm-hmm

of this giant crocodile. Mm. And it made me realize, yeah, you know, you just don’t do it. You just can’t do

Lance Gillies: it. And the, the, it’s, it, it, it’s their world. I mean-

Scott Brady: Yeah …

Lance Gillies: and isn’t that another great part of traveling? I love it. You’re, you’re, you’re pulling back a veil into a new exciting place, right?

Scott Brady: Yeah.

Lance Gillies: I [00:06:00] mean, if, if you wanna open your eyes to it.

If you wanna, if you wanna stay- You know, if you wanna stay in the airport, that’s great. But it’s, I think it’s a mental, uh, brain snap we have to do.

Scott Brady: Right.

Lance Gillies: That you go, “Okay, um, I’ve landed at the new s- this new place,” wherever it may be, “and I’m do- gonna do the very best I can to say hello in whatever language, and I’ve gotta start when I walk off the airplane.”

Scott Brady: Oh, that’s great advice. And, and one of the things that I’ve loved doing is I’ll, I’ll download a book on the history of the country- Mm-hmm, mm-hmm … that I’m gonna go visit. And I also do get a, a small language book as well. Mm. Usually you can get an app for that for, for whatever language you’re, you’re gonna be encountering.

But learning those pleasantries, learning how to say hi. They kn- Sure … they know that you don’t speak the language- Yeah … fluently, but the fact that you’ve made an effort-

Lance Gillies: Yeah …

Scott Brady: they really respond well to that.

Lance Gillies: Oh, big, and I, and I learn, right? I mean, you, you, you, whatever, right? You’re off the airplane, you book into a motel, whatever you’re gonna do.

Then, you know, you try and ride it out and, and, and it’s such an [00:07:00] icebreaker-

Scott Brady: Yeah …

Lance Gillies: at that first moment, right? Yeah, for sure. Okay. So I’ve tried to r- I’m gonna ride it out in a way that I can remember it. And, and, and explaining that to whoever it is, “Is this the way I say hello in Mong- in Mongol?”

Scott Brady: Yeah, sure.

Lance Gillies: You’ve been to Mongolia, haven’t you?

Scott Brady: I have, yeah.

Lance Gillies: I love Mongolia.

Scott Brady: Is that one of your most favorite places

Lance Gillies: to travel? Oh, it’s, it’s one of my most favorite places in the whole wide world to me.

Scott Brady: And where, where did you travel in Mongolia?

Lance Gillies: Uh, well, you know, you go U- um, Ubi. Yeah. So, you know, you know, we’ve got customers there.

So to me, it’s kind of sort of cheating-

Scott Brady: Yeah … ‘

Lance Gillies: cause I can just go there.

Scott Brady: Yeah,

Lance Gillies: sure. And then pick up a truck and drive around and be, carry on. So, but I love Mongolia.

Scott Brady: Yeah, it’s really beautiful. I just love Mongolia. That nor- the northern part of Mongolia when I- Yeah … I went from Russia into Mongolia, and then crossed the northern tracks.

And it was so remote. And it was just so beautiful to be dri- you’d drive for hours on this perfectly manicured grass almost. Mm-hmm, mm-hmm. And then, oh, here’s a beautiful creek, uh, let’s camp here. Mm-hmm. And then, and then the next morning the locals have, are, have ridden up on their camel, their Bactrian [00:08:00] camel or their- Yeah, yeah

or their horses or whatever- Right … and they’re interacting with you. Uh, it was real- it’s a really special place.

Lance Gillies: It really is. I, I was lucky enough, um, yeah, through one of my mates in Mongolia, um- Uh, we went out and visited. So, and I actually didn’t know this, so the, a lot of the sheep a- aren’t owned by the shepherds.

Scott Brady: Oh, okay.

Lance Gillies: I didn’t know that. Uh, there’s a real hierarchy of who owns the sheep. And the shepherds, I don’t think it’s a, a proper lease, but there’s some sort of, I dunno- Sure … ag- a- a- agreement as to where pastures are gonna move and as the s- as the s- as the seasons go up and down, as they can bring the livestock up and down.

Anyway, so story short is that, um, we went out to visit some of his friends, who were the shepherds. Um, and, uh, we stayed in the, uh, I mean this is a real family. This wasn’t a tourist number. Sure. Right? This is, his friends had just got close enough to where we were that we could reach them in a Land Cruiser.

Scott Brady: Amazing.

Lance Gillies: Oh, it was fabulous. And so, it, this might sound a little bit odd, but anyway, so i- it’s a big deal. I, I got to be the, um, the guest of, [00:09:00] of the day, and of course I speak no Mongol.

Scott Brady: Right.

Lance Gillies: Um, and, uh, my friends, oh, they’re so fabulous, they speak German, they speak Russian. Sure. Yeah. I feel so embarrassed.

Scott Brady: I know.

Lance Gillies: It’s pathetic. Um, so yeah, so it was, they just went out, grabbed a, one poor sheep. Um, and we went from there to have a true Mongol feast. Wow. And so then other shepherds come in from different places on their little horses, and it was fabulous. Um- Yeah … i- i- if you, again, why do you travel? ‘Cause you get to do that.

Scott Brady: Yeah, those experiences, they sear into your memories. Oh, yeah. I remember I was somewhere in northern Mongolia, and I came across this family and, and they, they had their ger and everything. Mm-hmm. And they, they offered me this fermented mare’s milk. Oh, yeah … mare’s milk.

Lance Gillies: Oh,

Scott Brady: yeah. Which I was really grateful that they also gave me a, a vodka shooter because that fermented mare’s milk was rough.

Lance Gillies: Yeah.

Scott Brady: It was, it was like this- Yeah … chunky, you know- Yeah, I know it … it was ter- it was terrible.

Lance Gillies: Oh, yeah. It was terrible. You, you don’t for- Yeah … it’s one of those memo- uh, moments you don’t forget. [00:10:00] Yeah. Right?

Scott Brady: Yeah. No, it was wonderful. I mean, I, I’m so glad I did it, but it didn’t taste good.

Lance Gillies: Yeah. Oh, it’s very special.

And they tell me it’s sensational hangover cure. Oh, really? I can’t say that I’ve experienced- Yeah. … that as a hangover cure, but they swear by the stuff. And their little kids, they can ride before they can walk.

Scott Brady: Oh, they’re amazing, yeah.

Lance Gillies: Unbelievable. And it’s great, they’ve never lost those skills.

Scott Brady: Yeah.

Lance Gillies: Never lost those skills, you know? And here I was riding one of these horses, looked like a complete, a complete idiot. And these little kids just go whoosh, straight past you. Yeah. It’s just too good.

Scott Brady: Oh, yeah. Love it. They’re, they’re so, so talented at it. I rem- I remember- Yeah … when I was in, in Tomtor along the Road of Bones in Russia.

Mm-hmm. And that was actually one of the northernmost outposts of the Mongol Empire. Mm-hmm. And when the Mongol Empire contracted, they stayed there. And so when you go to that part of Russia, these are Mongolians that are- Mm … that are still living there, and they have a lot of the Mongol tren- you know, traditions that you can still see.

So it’s really neat to see how [00:11:00] far that empire expanded into Asia.

Lance Gillies: Oh, they made it to Baghdad. I mean- Yeah … you know, uh, they, they went all over Europe. I mean- They did … and I’ve been … I get corrected. It is not Genghis Khan. It is Changis Khan. And it’s, yeah. Anyway.

Scott Brady: Yeah, we lear- It’s different … we learned it the wrong way, didn’t we?

Yeah, yeah, yeah. In our schools. Yeah. Right. Well, and then you, you recently did a trip that looked like it was, uh, such a challenge in such a positive way, too, crossing Kalimantan. Yeah. And tell us, tell us about what you did with that journey. W- how did it g- get brought about? Who did you do it with?

Lance Gillies: Okay. No, really good.

So I was, uh … I, I’ve been very, very fortunate. I mean, again, I think that’s one of the great parts of international travel. You have mates all over the world, right? Right. And so a number of years ago, some friends of mine said, “Listen, we, we’re thinking about, um, doing a quite, a, a trip east to west, uh, following the equator, um, across Kalimantan, Borneo.”

And why are we gonna do that? They said, “Because it’s never been done before.” And I [00:12:00] said, “Well, now that sounds interesting.” Sure. “I’d love to go. If we can pull that together, that’d be terrific.” And so, uh, you know, fast-forward a couple of years, because i- imagine it, right? You know, uh, i- Indonesia is a very modern place and- Sure

a wonderful place. And, um, you know, you’ve got private land, you’ve got jungle jungle, you’ve got, um, some agricultural land. All of that had to be stitched together if we were going to keep the commitment of one degree. And so that took a couple of years, um, for, uh- Just

Scott Brady: logistics.

Lance Gillies: Oh, yeah. Yeah. And, and permissions, and you, and you try…

Yeah, and we had to cross, uh, uh, logging leases and stuff like that, and they just don’t let people in. Sure. You can imagine how all that would go.

Scott Brady: Those natural resources are well, well-guarded, yeah.

Lance Gillies: Yeah, big time. I mean, there’s a really good book, and it’s called The Last Wild Man of Borneo. Okay. It’s a good- And it’s a r- if, if, if someone would like to get a, a quick glimpse of what, uh, Borneo is, it’s

That’s a great book.

Scott Brady: Oh.

Lance Gillies: And that’s- Good

Scott Brady: suggestion.

Lance Gillies: Yeah, it’s really good. And so, so anyway. So it, it gives you a, um, a glimpse [00:13:00] of how the competing mineral rights. Uh, we have environmental. We have, uh, of course, you know, the logging, and we have all the indigenous tribes. And how do, how does all that work out on a relatively small area that was once upon a time, um, uh, owned the, you know, that part of the world?

I mean, uh, once upon a time the, um, Bahasa, they, which is a language also, but they, you know, ruled a lot of Asia.

Scott Brady: Mm.

Lance Gillies: Uh, and parts of China included, you know? Wow. And so, you know, there’s a lot of deep history there that is not often taught to us. And so anyway. So story short is, yeah, so we literally winched ourself a- across once.

Oh, it was excellent fun.

Scott Brady: Yeah, every, every picture you sent me was like thigh-deep or, or hip-deep mud- Yeah, yeah … and a winch line.

Lance Gillies: Exactly, yeah.

Scott Brady: And, and what vehicles did you use for that?

Lance Gillies: Uh, I had the only Nissan. Uh, so I got a little Nissan Patrol Shorty. I can’t help myself. Um, and so that, uh, we shipped that vehicle over, uh, to, um, Jakarta.

Had some friends there help us, um, with some logistics [00:14:00] there, which is again, it’s that- That, that network community

Scott Brady: Sure …

Lance Gillies: you know? It’s wonderful. Um, so just the NSC helped just, uh, with that. Couldn’t get the tires that I wanted. I mean, who, why would anybody be selling jungle tires in Bend, Oregon, right?

Were you trying

Scott Brady: to get Simex

Lance Gillies: or- Uh, no, we didn’t, I didn’t necessarily want the, um, Simex. I’ve, the, so we’ve got the Centipedes. I’ve had them before- Sure … and I’ve had, uh, uh, Jungle Trekker IIs before. But, um, uh, but it’s funny how things change, right? Technology changes all the time. Yeah, sure. You know, the, the Centipedes didn’t really have enough s- real side bite.

I mean, they’re very, very good for going straight. They are not terrific for climbing up the side of a hill.

Scott Brady: Oh,

Lance Gillies: sure. You’ve gotta turn the wheel too much. Got it. And we wanted to basically just… I know it’s hard to say on air, but we want to sort of climb sideways up hills.

Scott Brady: Sure.

Lance Gillies: Does that make sense? Yeah, sure.

‘Cause, ’cause there is no road Right? There’s no lovely wheel tracks to sit in and, and bite. There isn’t. So that’s- You

Scott Brady: needed that lateral grip- Big time … so you didn’t slide down.

Lance Gillies: Yeah. Exactly. And so now, uh, you know, Indonesia’s got a booming tire industry specializing in jungle tires. [00:15:00] So things like that.

So, um, just giving- What

Scott Brady: did you end up using for the tire brand? Do you remember?

Lance Gillies: It’s an Indonesian brand. Okay. Sure. I’d, uh, uh-

Scott Brady: And it worked.

Lance Gillies: Oh, they’re fabulous. Oh, cool. They, uh, we drove around on one completely flat tire for two days. Um, just, there was just nowhere to change it. Sure. It just wasn’t possible.

And so, yeah. We’ll

Scott Brady: include that in the show notes, the brand that, that, uh- Yeah,

Lance Gillies: yeah, I’ll do that. Sorry, I’m pretty-

Scott Brady: Yeah, that’s great. No,

Lance Gillies: it’s good. It, I, I probably couldn’t pronounce the, the Bahasa properly anyway. No,

Scott Brady: we’ll, we’ll, uh, we’ll include it.

Lance Gillies: Yeah. Um- We’ll

Scott Brady: also include some pictures of Lance winching and-

Lance Gillies: Yeah

Scott Brady: his Nissan Patrol

Lance Gillies: and stuff. Yeah, it’s, uh, he’s in… But it, again, it’s the camaraderie, it’s the… Yeah, you, you go, I, I strongly believe that the jungle never actually wants you to really leave. You know? It just, it just- It’s gonna keep a part of you. It’s, it’s gonna keep a part of you. And, and you, and you start to go into it, and you know, like we lit- we, we left the road, and it was just a walking track, and that was it.

There was- Wow … and just, we just kept going. And so it was, um, yeah, no, I, I really… The, the jungle never wants you to really leave. And, but you’ve got to work together with [00:16:00] people, some people we’d never met before.

Scott Brady: Sure.

Lance Gillies: And all of a sudden, you know, you’re either winching them down something sheer, and they are 100% depending on you, and in a few hours or a few days’ time, it took us best part of a month, um, a few hours, a few days’ time, your life literally depends on them.

They are winching you sheer-

Scott Brady: Sure …

Lance Gillies: down who knows what. And if they don’t know what they’re doing, it could be not fabulous.

Scott Brady: What, what was the high point of that trip? What was that one standout memory or, or, or part of the adventure that was so extreme that, that it really was an earmark?

Lance Gillies: Uh, probably the canoes.

We arranged, one of the rivers was just too high to winch across or drive across, and so we arranged for canoes. So we winched the vehicles down onto canoes. Uh-huh. Um, and, uh, and the locals, you know, did a really good job of it. Uh, j- they were just canoes. Sure. And, and we just put the vehicle, unloaded all the vehicles, um, took all our gear across to the other side.

Um, [00:17:00] then they paddled, uh, the canoes across to then where it was a sheer winch straight up. And so actually the, my car, it fell, the back canoe, um, it, ’cause we d- uh, we did it at nighttime. Um, yeah, the exit at nighttime. And that, so the back canoe, it sunk, and so the back, the back of my car, um, w- went underwater.

And, and so it’s those, it’s, it’s, it’s those moments that you go, you don’t panic. Yeah. You don’t worry, you just do it by the numbers. You hit the winch, you got y- you got good gear, you’ve put together the vehicle the way it should be put together, and you trust the guy on the other side of it. Yeah. And you just…

What else you gonna do? You gonna sit there and scream? You know, no- nobody cares. I mean, you know. No. You know? And we, and we- It’s not gonna get you out of that … it’s not gonna get you out. Right. Yeah. And we’ve still got another two weeks of jungling to do yet, so- Yeah … doesn’t matter what happens, you know?

And so, um, I, I, I’d say it again, again, again You build your truck for that moment. Don’t build your truck for the moment when it’s so nice and sitting in that [00:18:00] showroom, or so nice and sitting in- Mm … your garage, you can sit around and talk about it. Don’t build it for that. Yeah. ‘Cause that’s not where it matters.

Scott Brady: Yeah. Build it for getting out there and doing something interesting.

Lance Gillies: Yeah, at the worst possible time.

Scott Brady: Yeah, for

Lance Gillies: sure. You know? Um, so anyway, so that… So y- you don’t forget that one. That was a really good one. And on that same night, so now at, um, we’re… Some of our companions are on one side of the river, we’re on the other side of the river, and, um, we’d been camping in the jungle the whole time, blah, blah, blah, wet, mosquitoes, all that kind of stuff.

How did you

Scott Brady: camp? Using h- hammocks,

Lance Gillies: or- No, no, no. Uh, um, I, uh, again, it’s the camaraderie, it’s kinda what you do it for, you know? Yeah. So yeah, no, just two peop- two vehicles together. Uh, winch strap over the top, tighten the winch, and run a tarp

Scott Brady: over it. Okay.

Lance Gillies: Sure. You know? And so it was all a bloke trip, there was no ladies on the trip.

Um, and so yeah, y- we put four stretchers underneath there. Stretchers are better for a flash flood. Um, you’re up off the ground a little bit.

Scott Brady: Sure.

Lance Gillies: You can manage the, uh, mosquitoes and snakes and whatever a little bit better then too, and they’re just a really good [00:19:00] fly net. So very, very simple. Very, very simple.

Simple is good. Uh- Simple is good. Simple is good. Yeah, all the- Simple is- … all the time … simple is good. Yeah, yeah. And so that’s how we slept. Um, anyway, so we’d been wet for, I don’t know, goodness knows how long. Um, and so then there was a, a mosque there, and it’s just a really simple, simple… There, there is no road to this little village, nothing like that.

Scott Brady: Sure.

Lance Gillies: And so there’s a very simple mosque there, and, um, uh, one of the fellas said in Bahasa, “If you…” You know, I don’t speak Bahasa. Um, uh, you know, “If you’d like to sleep in the mosque, you’re welcome.” And I said, “Well, are you sure? Because I’m not Muslim.” And they said, “Look, a, a mosque is…” This is sign language.

“A, a mosque is a place of sanctuary. You are most welcome.” Ah. And it poured rain that night, and I had the most fabulous night’s sleep. A- and I thought- You gotta

Scott Brady: dry your feet out a little bit

Lance Gillies: and everything- Yeah … else.

Scott Brady: Sure.

Lance Gillies: Yeah. And I, and, and I guess some people may take, uh, objection to that, but that’s okay.

I mean, because you’re in somebody else’s country, and when they offer you such a courtesy-

Scott Brady: Yeah …

Lance Gillies: that’s really stunning to [00:20:00] me.

Scott Brady: I, I agree. And you take advantage of that opportunity- Yeah … to see that side of humanity.

Lance Gillies: And people are just people, right? And, and- Yeah … and at sunrise, you know, they had morning prayers, and they…

You know, I tried to stay to the corner and respectful, and you don’t be… You know, don’t bring- take your shoes inside, and all that sort of stuff. Sure. And, uh, it was… Yeah, so you asked me the two things of that?

Scott Brady: Yeah.

Lance Gillies: They’re the two things.

Scott Brady: Oh, that’s awesome. Yeah. And so it took you about a month in total then?

Lance Gillies: Yeah, yeah. I was gone for just a month. Yeah, just a little over a month.

Scott Brady: Oh, what a, what a memory that would be of having that experience. And w- what would you say, um, just kind of more on the technical side of things with the vehicle… So you had a, a short wheel base Nissan Patrol. Mm-hmm. What were maybe the top three modifications that you did to the vehicle for that trip that really stood out in your mind- Okay

as making the difference?

Lance Gillies: It, um… All right. So s- Clearly a really good quality winch, right? Yeah. So I ha- put the Warn 8274 on it. And my truck’s 24 volt by choice, uh, but I put a 12 volt motor on it. The reason is it goes faster with more torque.

Scott Brady: [00:21:00] Okay.

Lance Gillies: And it’s a really easy thing to do. Um, so there’s that.

Uh, making sure that we could carry enough water. Uh, being hydrated is dreadfully important, of course.

Scott Brady: Oh,

Lance Gillies: sure. Uh, we, we, uh, try and avoid those plastic bottles. The… You know, we could, we can do our little part, right? Mm-hmm. Uh, if we’re in a position to put in some decent sized water tanks and water filtrations, which we can, why wouldn’t you, right?

Uh, and then a decent fuel tank, right? So it’s- Where

Scott Brady: you have the range, yeah.

Lance Gillies: Exactly, yeah. And so as far as, um, uh, modifications, I wouldn’t say there’s a lot of modifications. We could have a look at them if you like. It’s, it’s pretty basic, and, and that’s important. Yeah, sure. Um, but it’s ma- I would class it as get-out-able, right?

So we did burn out, uh, a winch motor trying to pull ourself out of something, and so now we’re stuck, right? The back half of the vehicle, again, is underwater, stuck. The winch motor doesn’t work anymore. Uh, there’s no one to pull us out ’cause we were the lead car at that point, and we’re stuck stuck, right?

Now, not only are we [00:22:00] stuck, nobody can get around us-

Scott Brady: Sure …

Lance Gillies: to do anything, right? So now, right, problem. And so, uh- When you pack that winch motor, don’t put it at the very back where you gotta pull everything out. It’s simple things- Sure … like that, that you really gotta think about. Yeah. Seriously. Um, and so you don’t.

I mean, so think of the things that you are really gonna need at the worst possible scenario, and put them where you can get

Scott Brady: them. Yeah, and I’ve, I’ve seen people do that with their medical kits. They’ll put- Mm-hmm … the medical kit in the very back of the drawer system- Yeah … or they’ll have it under a pile of…

Yeah, when you need it, you need it right away.

Lance Gillies: Yeah. Yeah, exactly. You mean, in your, if you’ve got an Astro or center console, what you should have there, in my humble opinion, you should have plenty of those little, um, sanitary, uh, what do you call it? Um, wipes for, uh- Sure … what do you call it? Um-

Scott Brady: Like a wet wipe?

Lance Gillies: Exactly. You should j- They should be there, with Band-Aids.

Scott Brady: Sure.

Lance Gillies: Should be. Yeah. Th- th- those two things should be there all the time. You should never have to go dig for those, because if you can deal with a simple, [00:23:00] particularly in a, a, like a jungle environment, if you can deal with that in the first couple of minutes, it’s gonna make all the difference in the world.

I remember y- one of your recent podcasts, you were talking about getting your, making sure your teeth are, uh- Yeah … in good nick. That’s really smart. Yeah. That is… It sounds silly, but it’s not. I mean, it’s, it’s a case of if you’re really, humble opinion, really traveling, that means you’re going somewhere, and you are not going back to where it was that you were safe.

Scott Brady: Mm-hmm.

Lance Gillies: You are going to somewhere new now. And so don’t, if you can avoid it, don’t put yourself in a position where you have to get to somewhere- Mm … to be safe e- or, or to be comfortable. Right. And, and, and, and safe means different things to different people. To me, it just means it’s, it shouldn’t be a forced march.

There is no medal for being the most miserable.

Scott Brady: True.

Lance Gillies: You know what I mean? There’s not. Yeah, so true. “Oh, you know, look, I walked the whole way with no shoes.” “Well, why didn’t you buy some shoes?” All right? You know what I mean? That’s so true. Yeah. It’s, it’s not like that. Yeah. So, so simple things that one can prepare for themself.[00:24:00]

So okay, so if this got really bad, what is it they want at hand?

Scott Brady: Mm-hmm.

Lance Gillies: Some water, you want some food. So whatever bits and pieces you think you might need. So that’s it. So, mate, I can’t, I can’t really say that there’s a, a laundry list of, um, uh, of things that we did to the vehicle outside of being very, um, purposeful on what the vehicle was designed to do.

And I think that’s might be the question you asked me.

Scott Brady: Yes.

Lance Gillies: Yeah. I- i- is what, is what is it that we could do to make it so it’s gonna fit our purpose?

Scott Brady: Right.

Lance Gillies: And that’s what we could do.

Scott Brady: And you, you know, it’s, it’s, uh, the Nissan Patrol, in the times that I’ve used them in Africa and in Australia, they’re really exceptional vehicles.

Is that kind of your wagon of choice?

Lance Gillies: Um, yeah. I, I, I got the p- I’ve had a couple of Patrols and, you know, spoil it a little bit. Um, I got a Nissan Patrol, GQ Patrol only because there was no other one in the US that I could find.

Scott Brady: Okay, cool.

Lance Gillies: So that made… To me, that makes mo- [00:25:00] most logical thing that I should do.

Yeah. And I’ve had them and, and I know them. Yeah. You know? And they’re pretty basic, you know. They’re a little TD42, 4.2 liter diesel motor, five-speed gearbox, four disc brakes, four coils.

Scott Brady: Yeah.

Lance Gillies: Um, so they’re no powerhouse. Um, but it’s-

Scott Brady: But they work But they work. They’re really tough.

Lance Gillies: Yeah, yeah, they’re tough.

You know? Um, on that trip we tore out all of the brake lines, just all the vines. Mm-hmm. Just destroyed the brake lines, so we did most of the trip with no brakes. Um- But it’s got a really good transmission handbrake. You know, I think, again, some redundancies have, were built into those things- Sure … a long time ago that you can take advantage of.

Scott Brady: Yeah, they’re really robust. In fact, I remember when I was crossing one of the big glaciers in Iceland, we were using some 70 Series Land Cruisers, and to make them robust enough to take the 44-inch tall tires, they actually put Nissan Patrol axles- Yeah … underneath the Land Cruiser. It,

Lance Gillies: yeah, in the… When, when we used to do off-road racing, the winch challenges, which are very, very similar to, uh, r- um, the, a Camel Trophy- Yeah

but under a stopwatch, [00:26:00] um, is that we would get, say, a 75 Series Land Cruiser and cut the axles out of it and put Nissan Patrol under it. Yeah. Because the 75 has, um, really good vision. The Patrol loses a little bit. It’s got a big bonnet. So if you’re, if you’re going vertical, it’s really hard to see.

Scott Brady: Sure.

Lance Gillies: Um, with the 75, it’s much better. So that was a common thing we’d do, yeah. Um, re- take out the 75 axles, um, put Patrol GQ or, uh, GU under it,

Scott Brady: yep. Now, you’ve been involved with the Rainforest Challenge for years. Mm, some time. Um, have you, have you competed in that event, or have you- Oh, yeah,

Lance Gillies: a number of times.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Scott Brady: And, and how did, how did that go?

Lance Gillies: Um, well, actually, that’s how I met Michelle. Okay, cool. So I met my wife… Um, so yeah, I guess that makes sense. So yeah, I met Michelle in the Rainforest Challenge. She was competing, and I was competing.

Scott Brady: Oh, how cool.

Lance Gillies: Yeah, yeah.

Scott Brady: And what year was that?

Lance Gillies: That was in ’97.

Scott Brady: Okay. Yeah. Yeah. That, that event definitely got a lot of international attention at, at several points- Mm … because it was so extreme. Yeah, yeah. And there were even some American teams that- Oh, yeah, a number of them … that went over and, and, [00:27:00] and tried to be competitive. There was a, uh, was it Eddie Angel out of- Yep

out of-

Lance Gillies: Alaska, yeah …

Scott Brady: Alaska? Yeah. Yeah, he’s a good guy. I, I met him- Yeah … a few times. Yeah. Interesting guy.

Lance Gillies: Yeah, yeah.

Scott Brady: Yeah. And, uh, I know that a lot of them tried to be competitive. Now, did you ever do the, uh, the Outback Challenge in Australia?

Lance Gillies: Yep, certainly did.

Scott Brady: Yeah. Yeah, that was a-

Lance Gillies: Did that as well, yeah.

That was a good… Um, but yeah, things have, um, seasons, don’t they?

Scott Brady: Yeah, they do, and those have changed, for sure.

Lance Gillies: They have, yeah. Um, it, it’s, um… the way vehicles have… I don’t know. Um, I think sometimes- Um, Australia, Indonesia, um, Malaysia to a point, has a slight, uh, and Af- South Africa for sure, has a slight advantage when it comes to building overland vehicles because they use them all the time-

Scott Brady: They do.

Lance Gillies: They’ve figured it out … in really difficult situations. Yeah, yeah. You know? It, it’s, they may not be the prettiest, but they’re gonna get you there and get you going, you know? And that counts.

Scott Brady: Yeah. There’s, there’s certain amount of practicality that I’ve seen [00:28:00] in the, in the Australian and the South African vehicle projects because they really do need them to work in the middle of nowhere.

Yeah. So you don’t see as many high-performance modifications. You see more durability- Yep … focused modifications.

Lance Gillies: Yeah, yep, yep, yep. Yeah. I mean, it, yeah, they may not be the prettiest, but it sure beats a first-class walk.

Scott Brady: Yeah,

Lance Gillies: for sure. And, and that’s your, and that’s your next option.

Scott Brady: Well, and with all of your travels and the fact that you grew up in Australia and, and which is where the term overlanding actually originated in many ways, what, what does overlanding mean to you as a traveler?

Lance Gillies: Well, I, I, I’m not sure it’s gotta be necessarily… It, it, it absolutely is not the biggest wheel wallet wins. Yeah, sure. It is absolutely not, in my humble opinion, that, uh, I, I’m driving around in something and, a- [00:29:00] and, uh, you’re sort of, you’re, um… I’m doing a lot of um-ing here For me, a couple of things I try to…

Uh, maybe I could give you an example.

Scott Brady: Sure.

Lance Gillies: So we were in Senegal, uh, in our, one of our trucks. We were in Senegal. And so we’d… W- there’s a place in Senegal where they, um… it’s a habitat for pink flamingos, and so we went to go there. Anyway, so it was, again, very remote. Um, but, uh, uh, uh, Africa, there’s a lot of people live in Africa.

Sure. All right? And so, so anyway, so where- wherever you stop, you’re gonna see a ton of people. So the, um… we were driving through this reserve, I guess we’d call it, and this guy stopped, and I didn’t, we didn’t know anybody. It was getting dark, and we hadn’t figured out where we were gonna stay yet, because a couple of places we were gonna stop, it just didn’t feel right, so we went to somewhere else.

Anyway, and there was a ferry that was gonna close soon, and we were trying to decide [00:30:00] should we keep going that night, catch that ferry, and go into The Gambia for, and stay in The Gambia, or what we were gonna do. We didn’t know. So anyway, so we, um, uh, got to this reserve, and this guy stepped out, and he had a sort of a uniform on, which, as you know, you’ve been in Africa- Sure

that could mean anything.

Scott Brady: Right.

Lance Gillies: And, uh, he s- and through broken French, it was, uh, the toll is a hundred euro. A hundred euro in Senegal is a lot of money.

Scott Brady: Right.

Lance Gillies: And I thought- It’s a

Scott Brady: month’s wages …

Lance Gillies: it’s, it’s a lot of money, you know? And I thought, and I said, “Um, that doesn’t seem right.” I felt, you know, this guy’s really having a go at us.

And, uh, and we kept trying to communicate, communicate. And, uh, he went off and he got his, uh, boss, who was, he was the real deal, and he come back. He spoke great English. And I felt terrible because that, and I’ve not forgotten, ’cause that guy, he was just trying to look after the [00:31:00] flamingos, and the toll was a hundred euro.

Scott Brady: Mm.

Lance Gillies: All right? And here I was, my first thought were, “This guy’s just trying to rip me off.” Mm. Because I had a preconceived idea of what should happen, and I was wrong. And I felt so bad for that guy because, for one, he stood his ground, which I really respected, um, very respectfully, but I could see the anger in him because he could see that I was putting him in a box that…

And I was 100% wrong, and I wish I could have enough French to say, “I apologize.” Yeah. “I am so sorry.” And so to answer your question, what is overlanding for me, it, it is, um, getting out of, you can say comfort zone, but just for one moment, living in somebody else’s shoes.

Scott Brady: Yeah.

Lance Gillies: You know what I mean? You dr- you’ve driven through some amazing places yourself.

Would I be able to even survive or even thrive and feed a family with what those people could do? [00:32:00] More often not a chance. I’d starve and die.

Scott Brady: Yeah. You know?

Lance Gillies: But do you know what I mean? Yeah. And, and, and to have a, to have a moment, that’s t- to me, that is everything.

Scott Brady: Yeah, I had a similar experience in Uganda.

I met, I met a woman and, and, uh, she was trying to get her kids to the next town to go to school, which was 18 kilometers away. Mm-hmm. And I spent some, a little bit of time in their village and, and I, I… At the end of the day, I had this realization that on the day that I work my hardest in my life, I will not work as hard as she does every single day.

Lance Gillies: Mm-hmm. It’s a humbling.

Scott Brady: Yeah.

Lance Gillies: It’s a, it’s a humbling.

Scott Brady: It was a- Yeah … real realization for me.

Lance Gillies: Yeah. You know, and so things like that really matter. I mean, you know, we, um, uh, we were in, driving around Malaysia, you know, in one of our trucks, having a wonderful time. And, um, one of our friends said, “Come back to, come back to my town, you know, my, my, uh, my place for dinner.”

Yes, please. Love Malaysian food.

Scott Brady: Yeah,

Lance Gillies: sure. And, and so he’s got a lovely little [00:33:00] 80s Series Cruiser. And we were… I was flat out keeping up with him and he’s flinging through the back of these little town. It was really quite fun. Anyway, so, and I thought to myself, “If the truck I had was any bigger, I’d be missing out on dinner right now.”

Scott Brady: Right.

Lance Gillies: You know what I mean? So- Sure … so there’s, uh, those, those two opposites. So what is overlanding? To me, it is, um, being in a position to put yourself in someone else’s shoes for just a little while.

Scott Brady: A- a- and that, I love that d- I love that idea. I like that definition in a way because it, it gives us something to, to aspire to- Yeah

is to experience something unique from our own culture, something different from our own life, and we probably learn a lot more about ourselves in that way.

Lance Gillies: Oh, heaven to. Yeah. Oh, well, I know I do.

Scott Brady: Yeah.

Lance Gillies: Um, and, a- a- a- and maybe, maybe we earn a glimmer of respect from the, from the people’s country that we’re-

Scott Brady: Mm

Lance Gillies: guests in. And sometimes these forget that, we’re guests in somebody [00:34:00] else’s country. And, you know, go catch a, a local bus. Don’t go get on the fancy one. Just go figure out the local one. You’ll have a completely different trip.

Scott Brady: Totally different.

Lance Gillies: Oh, yeah. Yeah. Michelle and I did that in Vietnam. We just figured out the transit system.

Scott Brady: They call them a chicken bus for a reason. They j- There’s chicken and go- goats and everything on there.

Lance Gillies: J- just wonderful.

Scott Brady: Yeah, it is

Lance Gillies: wonderful. It, it is wonderful, and the people you meet, you know? And then, yeah, it’s great. I mean, Laos and Cambodia, push bikes, local transport, fantastic. Just couldn’t recommend it enough.

I love… Have you been to Laos?

Scott Brady: No, I haven’t. I’d love to go. Love Laos.

Lance Gillies: Love Laos.

Scott Brady: Yeah, I haven’t spent enough time in Southeast Asia- Yeah … so I need, I need to do that. Matt has, but I haven’t.

Lance Gillies: Yeah. It’s relatively, relatively easy from Australia. I mean, I’ve spent no time in, um, South America, which I really, really, really wanna do.

Um, b- uh, from Australia, it’s just a long, long way away. It

Scott Brady: is.

Lance Gillies: Um, but Asia, you know, it’s much easier, you know? So anyway, it’s all good fun.

Scott Brady: Well, I love your definition. Thank you for sharing that, Lance. That’s very [00:35:00] cool. Um, one of the things that you do is, is run EarthCruiser, which makes expedition campers that are designed to travel around the world.

Um, within the context of someone that’s listening that’s interested in buying a camper, what do you, what do you think are some of the most important things for them to consider, uh, again, if their intention is to go see the world by vehicle- Okay … uh, by a camper? What would you have them look for?

Lance Gillies: Um, well- Who’s…

I, I’m gonna assume the we, um, is a husband and wife.

Scott Brady: Okay. All

Lance Gillies: right?

Scott Brady: Sure. Yeah. Probably common, right?

Lance Gillies: Yeah. Uh, and so then, uh, the world’s a big place, but for wherever you wanna go, I, I would really work hard at the livability. Livability is could I change a tire?

Scott Brady: Yeah.

Lance Gillies: All right? Um, livability is, you know, if, if I had to be in this vehicle for a long [00:36:00] period of time, is there enough separation to make there isn’t, make sure there isn’t a major separation.

All right? We all need our personal space. Um, if you’re gonna travel with a group or as individuals, you’ll, you’ll… Either way, you’ll catch up and you will meet people, and you may or may not want to invite them into your, what is now your home. And it’s funny how vehicles have a way of latching onto us, isn’t it?

Sure. You know, we, they-

Scott Brady: Personality …

Lance Gillies: They do. They really do. So ask yourself, “Has that v- has this thing got the personality that I’m looking for?” And the ultimate question I really think is, “Am I going to serve it or is it going to serve me?”

Scott Brady: Mm.

Lance Gillies: M- my meaning is that am, am I, uh, uh, am, am I at a, a, a- level in my own self, where am I always gonna be worried about this, or am I going to be, “No, I, this is okay.

I, I can park it wherever I wanna park it.” Um, we, I can get into tons of details about how things are put [00:37:00] together, but really, who’s gonna be in charge here? Am I, uh, am I gonna be, um, the one always worried about this thing? ‘Cause if that’s the case, no thank you.

Scott Brady: Buy a different thing, yeah.

Lance Gillies: It’s not working for you.

Whatever that is.

Scott Brady: Sure.

Lance Gillies: You know? And, and that’s a personal thing to everybody, and that’s, that’s all there is to that. But to me it is really, it’s the livability. Who’s… I- if you’re, if, if you wanna go out and see if you can make vehicle ABC, you know, get around the world, great, knock yourself out. But if you wanna go out there and go, “I wanna go and see and experience as much as I can,” you shouldn’t be worried about a truck.

Scott Brady: Well, and that’s interesting because in, when we interviewed Dan Grech, that was one of the things that we asked him, which was what was next for his vehicle. And he says, “I need more inside space. I need more livability,” while he’s living on the road. Mm-hmm. And that also came up, uh, with Graeme Bell, who was another family that spent 10 years traveling around the

Lance Gillies: world.

Isn’t [00:38:00] that

Scott Brady: incredible? Yeah, in a Defender. Had good, had good chat. Yeah, he’s amazing. Yeah. Amazing family.

Lance Gillies: Yeah, no, wrong.

Scott Brady: Him and Louisa. And I asked him, you know, what was the most significant modification to his Defender, and he says, “It was when I put a camper on the back of it.” So it’s, it does seem to be a consistent thread that those that are traveling long-term around the world, maybe they start with something like a wagon, but they realize relatively quickly that, um, for them to be able to continue to travel around the world and live on, live on the road, they need to have a place to retreat to, a place to live.

Yeah.

Lance Gillies: Again, it’s not a forced march. Yeah. There’s no badge for being miserable.

Scott Brady: Right. There

Lance Gillies: just isn’t. No, true. I’m sorry. Yeah. I mean, people wanna talk about the war stories, and, you know, that’s… But there’s so much more to it than that.

Scott Brady: There really is. Yeah. And, and the war stories don’t really come along that often, right?

Nuh-uh. Yeah. They, most of it is that you, you took a, a beautiful hike that day, or you interacted with some locals at a market. Yeah, yeah. These are… This, this, you’re living your life just like you would in Bend, Oregon, where [00:39:00] we’re at now, um, it’s just that they speak a different language, right? Mm-hmm. So.

Lance Gillies: Yeah. Anyway, so to me it’s… So, yeah.

Scott Brady: No, I, I like that. I like that idea of making sure that it’s livable for what you need and what your partner needs. That, that’s-

Lance Gillies: At, at, at that moment in time.

Scott Brady: Yeah.

Lance Gillies: You know? ‘Cause- It

Scott Brady: can

Lance Gillies: change … things, it changes. Uh, it’s fun, isn’t it? Things always change, but we’re, we’re surprised and disappointed when it does.

Anyway.

Scott Brady: Yeah, so true. And, and I, I think about- campers for international travel, ’cause oftentimes people do aspire towards that. That is definitely something that we see our community aspiring towards, is buying, uh, whether it’s a full-size truck and fitting a camper to it or buying a complete camper unit.

And if you’re considering, uh, domestic travel, then you want something that is domestically available and can be domestically serviced and meets the needs, like for example, in North America, something that can travel at 75 miles an hour down the road, which of course your campers do as well. But, um, one of the things that I think once [00:40:00] you start to consider international travel, there are some attributes that I look for in a camper.

First of all, can I put it in a container? Mm-hmm. Um, and that’s because there are many places in the world where roll-on, roll-off is not available. And you, with roll-on, roll-off, you have a diminished level of security with, around your personal effects. Um, even though I’ve not had any issues with roll-on, roll-off myself, but you hear the horror stories of people having issues with roll-on, roll-off.

So I think that if I was looking for an international camper, it would be, can I fit it in a container so that it can be secure and shipped out of Magadan as much as it can be, um, you know, out of, uh, Montevideo or wherever? Um, and that’s, that seems to be very effective. And then also can, can the vehicle be serviced in those countries, and can it consume the local fuels?

And that leads me to a question, uh, about, uh, some recent drivetrain changes that you did with your campers where you’ve gone to a gasoline V8. Kind of share some of the, the [00:41:00] philosophy behind that decision and why you’re using a gasoline motor now instead of a diesel.

Lance Gillies: Um, sure. Can I just talk about the containerization first?

Yeah,

Scott Brady: of course.

Lance Gillies: Um, very… So yes, so, um, our… We make a couple of different varieties. One’s called a EXP, and that goes into a container. Takes about 15 minutes to do it. And so, yes, we’ve done that many times Um, it is very nice having your own stuff. It’s, it’s there. We put our dry goods, our clothes, et cetera.

It’s all in the truck, and so when we pick it up, it’s there. And you’ve already got a million things going on. Did I leave the fridge on at home? Did I leave the iron on? You know what I mean? Did I cancel the newspaper? You’ve already got a million things going on. So the more you can, uh, mitigate that, the better off you are.

You’re gonna have a better time faster.

Scott Brady: Sure.

Lance Gillies: Humble opinion. And so also with the containerization, we don’t ever pick the vehicle up from the port. We never do that.

Scott Brady: Mm.

Lance Gillies: Whereas if you’ve got ro-ro, typically you have to. You

Scott Brady: have to,

Lance Gillies: sure. And the reason that we… A- another reason why [00:42:00] containerization may not make obvious sense is that we, we, um, we have, uh, orga- uh, uh, agreements with, um, shipping companies because we do enough of it.

But, uh, we, we always pick the vehicle up from a, um, bond store. A bond store is the equivalent of the wharf, but it’s not run by the government. Why that’s important is, if you’re not breaking any rules here, you’re not, we’re not doing anything wrong, is that the, the wharf is typically a government, and so when…

If you’ve got a right- or a left-hand drive vehicle and you’re in the wrong country, you could, you could have that guy who’s now responsible for you driving off the wharf. He’s saying, “Oh, I’m sorry. You’re gonna have to get a permit for it before this leaves the wharf.”

Scott Brady: Yeah, sure.

Lance Gillies: That can ruin your day right there, and it just depends on the day, whoever…

That guy’s mood. Yeah. Uh, seriously.

Scott Brady: Yeah, no, I r- Yeah … I remember the fir- the first time that I shipped vehicles back from the Darien Gap, when we went to the Darien Gap and we were in Panama, and I decided I was gonna do it all myself because I wanted to learn how it all worked out. Mm. That was the last time I ever did it all myself.

No, let them do it. After, after that, you use a [00:43:00] customs broker- Yeah, let them do that stuff … and you, and you do… You take delivery of the container-

Lance Gillies: Yeah …

Scott Brady: out of the port, um, in, in a, in a port bonded facility. Yeah. And, and then you can cut the lock off yourself. Yeah. You open it up, and they always have some people there to support you.

Yeah, that’s the way to do it. And, and it makes such a huge difference.

Lance Gillies: Massive difference because you’re right. So at the bond store, um, there is no federal government person there ’cause it’s already been cleared by customs. Right. And so, yeah, so you can literally drive it out of that, that yard or workshop, whatever it is, and you’re on your way.

Yeah. That’s a big deal. I mean- It does make a difference … trust me, that’s a big deal. From moving vehicles over to Malaysia and stuff, getting caught at the port is not pleasant. Um, so anyhow, so that’s a side thing about- No, that’s great … containerization.

Scott Brady: That’s great.

Lance Gillies: Um, and so yeah. So as far as what’s happening in our big, wide world right now- It’s just reality.

It’s run by economics if we like it or not. Uh, ultra-low sulfur diesel fuel, we know about that. So some big things that happen now that ships are now gonna have to be [00:44:00] required to use ULSD. Um, uh, diesel, the diesel engines we have now are not the diesel engines we, excuse me, we fell in love with. Things change.

Scott Brady: Yeah, sure.

Lance Gillies: It makes no sense whatsoever for large, um, organizations to spend money on getting those diesels even more compliant, um, which, a- a- and, uh, miss the boat on electric. That’s just- economic suicide. And so, w- w- the, the internals of the diesel engines are still very, very good. It’s all the emission systems that go on the outside that make them difficult.

And, uh, the, um, the decision was taken by, um, Fuso, who’s owned by Mercedes, which is Daimler, the ones who invented the diesel engine, to discontinue them.

Scott Brady: Sure.

Lance Gillies: And so that’s what’s happened. And so, um, for the foreseeable future, yeah, we’ll be running around on gasoline, which is incredible. Um-

Scott Brady: And gasoline, I mean, people oftentimes think that, that diesel is the [00:45:00] most ubiquitous fuel in the world.

That’s not been my experience, because every little village has filled with motorcycles. Exactly right. And motorcycles don’t run on diesel, they run on- Exactly … gasoline.

Lance Gillies: Exactly right.

Scott Brady: And, uh, I’ve been able to find gasoline everywhere in the world- No … even crossing the Silk Road, which I did in a Suzuki Jimny.

It was a gasoline motor. I never once had issue finding gasoline.

Lance Gillies: Yeah, exactly right. I mean, th- you know, there’s pluses, minus to everything. Of

Scott Brady: course.

Lance Gillies: Um- Yeah, of course … you know, you don’t get the range, sorry. Yeah. D- you don’t get the density of, of fuel. Understood, we get all that. Um-

Scott Brady: A little bit of difference in the safety of the fuel- Yep

for storage and everything else. Yep. Yeah.

Lance Gillies: One, one is known as a combustible, the other one’s flammable.

Scott Brady: Yeah.

Lance Gillies: Uh, uh, one’s explosive and one’s a flammable, right? Yeah. So we get all that. Um, the emission rules didn’t disappear. I mean, they’re- Yeah … they’re still incredibly strict, which we have to adhere to, which is fine.

We can, we can handle all that. But at, at… Again, let’s go back to the livability part of it. Do you wanna be able to insure this thing? Do you wanna be able to get this thing serviced? Sure. Do you want it to be such a hodgepodge that you don’t know what you actually got? No, that’s [00:46:00] nonsense. You don’t want that.

And so having it legal, safe, reliable… Yes, please.

Scott Brady: Yeah. I- Exactly.

Lance Gillies: Yeah. It’s just that simple.

Scott Brady: Well, it’s… I look forward to, to driving it, seeing how it, how it does. Well- We’ll talk about that at a future podcast, I’m sure. So.

Lance Gillies: I hope so.

Scott Brady: Yeah, absolutely. Well, that- that’s… It’s exciting to see what you guys have done throughout the years with an emphasis on international travel.

And oftentimes, when I look for a, a camper image in the middle of the Road of Bones, it’s oftentimes an Earth Cruiser- Mm-hmm … because it just seems that, that those vehicles have been adopted by international travelers as, as something that’s very suitable. And I, and I believe it- a lot of that comes from the fact that the Fuso is an international platform.

Mm-hmm. It, it’s just like a Land Cruiser. Around the world, they use medium duty trucks, and- Yep … the Fuso is oftentimes the one that they use for that.

Lance Gillies: Yeah. I mean, again, livability, right? Simple things. You know, if you smash a lan- you smash your windscreen, um, you can put some plastic [00:47:00] up, but are you gonna get a good night’s sleep?

Scott Brady: Yeah.

Lance Gillies: No, you’re not. You’re gonna be worried about it all night, right? So those livability, it’s those things that count to us. You know? If you get a flat tire, can you easily get it fixed? Yes, please. You know, stuff like that. And- So important …

Scott Brady: you’re so right about windshields. People do not think about that when they wanna take this really obscure vehicle and drive it around the world.

Where are you gonna get a windscreen for it? And the, the reality is once you get into the developing world, rock chips and everything else that comes with it-

Lance Gillies: Look forward to it …

Scott Brady: um, or Yeah … or, or a, or a branch or a piece of pipe that comes out of a building. Yeah. Any number of things that’s gonna smash a windshield, it happens.

Lance Gillies: All the

Scott Brady: time. Uh, all, all of the time. Yeah. So being able to replace a windshield is a big deal.

Lance Gillies: As, as an example, I, I like to use a windshield, um, windscreen, windshield as an example because shipping them is really hard. Yeah. Some people just won’t do it.

Scott Brady: Yeah. Yeah, ’cause they’re so hard to get, arrive in one piece.

Lance Gillies: Exactly. They will not take responsibility for it.

Scott Brady: Yeah.

Lance Gillies: And so that can ruin your trip, [00:48:00] and again, it’s not supposed to be a misery, right?

Scott Brady: Yeah.

Lance Gillies: You’ve got better things to do than worry about stuff like that.

Scott Brady: Well, you’ve spent a lot of time in Australia and with Australian manufacturers, and you’ve used a lot of Australian trailers and campers.

Yeah. What do you think, what do you think Australian manufacturing and an Australian mindset brings to something like a camper that’s unique? What, what are some of the attributes of Australian manufacturing and design that you think adds to?

Lance Gillies: Uh, well I, I think- Uh, so typical in Australia, we get four to five weeks holiday a year, which is unheard of- Sure

in a lot of places. Yeah. Right? So- Especially

Scott Brady: here.

Lance Gillies: Yeah, indeed. And so th- that actually has a big influence on the product. Because i- if- if you’re gonna be traveling around the world or traveling around Australia, or just going to Fraser Island for two weeks, that camper’s gonna be sat on your favorite fishing spot on the beach for the next two weeks.

Scott Brady: Mm-hmm.

Lance Gillies: Right? And so you’re gonna get a lot of customer feedback.

Scott Brady: Right.

Lance Gillies: That counts, right?

Scott Brady: Yeah, sure.

Lance Gillies: That’s, that’s [00:49:00] a big thing. You know, mum, dad, the kids, you know, the mates come over for a barbecue and all that sort of stuff, so you’re gonna… So the manufacturers have a, a very good direct line to what works, what doesn’t.

And you’ve been to the Caravan and Camping Show in Brisbane. Brisbane’s roughly- It’s amazing … a million people. Yeah. And the show is 85,000 people show up.

Scott Brady: It is packed.

Lance Gillies: Yeah. And, and that’s normal, right? And then it’s on every year. And so i- it’s a, such a big industry for such a small economy. I mean, more people live in Los Angeles than live in Australia, so- Right

so, you know, camping is a very, it’s just ingrained. Everybody does it. Well, I think pretty much everybody. Everybody I know. Um, so, so, so I think part of the get right part is just really very dir- trust me, and it can be direct, customer feedback about what’s good and what’s not. And it, and that’ll filter down into the tiny little details of about maybe it’s the water pump, maybe it’s the fridge.

It’s not the fridge itself, [00:50:00] but it’s the little screws that the fridge manufacturer screwed the fridge together with-

Scott Brady: Mm …

Lance Gillies: is gonna get paid attention to. You know, it’s that tiny little detail. So you’ve got this great inverter that makes 5 million watts. Hey, that’s terrific, but if it falls to pieces as you’re crossing the Canning Stock Route-

Scott Brady: Right

Lance Gillies: I don’t care. You know, it’s a piece of garbage. You know what I mean?

Scott Brady: And if there’s anything in the world that’ll cause a vehicle to come apart at the seams, it’s Australian corrugations. Oh,

Lance Gillies: yeah. They’re great, aren’t

Scott Brady: they? It’s incre-

Lance Gillies: Oh,

Scott Brady: fabulous. Now, has, has one of your trucks been across the Canning Stock Route?

Lance Gillies: A number of them.

Scott Brady: Oh, that’s cool. Yeah. That’s such an amazing route.

Lance Gillies: Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah.

Scott Brady: I mean, it’s, it’s, uh… I think it’s close to 3,000 kilometers- Mm-hmm … across. Mm-hmm.

Lance Gillies: Mm-hmm.

Scott Brady: Maybe even a little bit more than that. Mm-hmm. That, yeah, that, I really enjoyed. I mean, all, all of those sand dunes and the, just the, the little water f- water holes you find.

It was just unbelievable. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Beautiful.

Lance Gillies: Yeah. Yeah. You’ve spent, gone to the Simpson, to Halsey Springs, all that, yeah?

Scott Brady: I haven’t done that, no.

Lance Gillies: Oh, you should. Not that route, no. No, it’s really, really nice. Yeah, [00:51:00] yeah. It’s great. Anyway, uh, and so I think, so for the Australian manufacturers, they get that advantage.

Mm-hmm. And you, you can’t beat experience. You just cannot. You know, you just, you, you, you can’t fake experience. Either you have it or you don’t.

Scott Brady: Right.

Lance Gillies: You know? And you can have the best engineers in the world, you can have the, the best- It’s not gonna help you. You know, you, you’ve gotta spend the time.

You’ve… You just have to, you know? Um, you gotta know what it’s like. You know, you… And it’s, um, that’s, that’s I think the real advantage. So if you wanna flip that the opposite way, a huge disadvantage that Australian manufacturers have, in my humble opinion, is that we don’t go camping in the snow for two or three weeks at a time.

Scott Brady: Right.

Lance Gillies: We don’t do that. We might go skiing, but that might be able to be one or two days. Anybody can get away with one or two days. And so th- that, that to me has been interesting. Do you, you’ve seen some of the products, uh, come from Australia, there’s a lot of outdoor living space- Right … which would last 30 seconds in a big snowstorm You know?

Scott Brady: Or even a lot [00:52:00] of rain. I mean, Australia just doesn’t get a lot of rain and-

Lance Gillies: Oh, the north it can, but- Yeah … but, but typically we wouldn’t go. Yeah. We would go somewhere else.

Scott Brady: Sure.

Lance Gillies: You know, ’cause we can. You know what I mean? Head a

Scott Brady: different direction.

Lance Gillies: Exactly right. You know? And there’s a lot of options there.

And so I think, I think those are a couple of really important things. You know, the, the infrastructure is not necessarily there. I mean, the United States has such fabulous infrastructure when it comes to camping. You know? Yeah. The, the, the… It just does. I mean, the beautiful lakes and stuff, it’s just gorgeous.

Scott Brady: Yeah.

Lance Gillies: Um, and a lot of that doesn’t exist in Australia, um, that… So, so the vehicles must by design be more self-sufficient because you may not know where you’re gonna get your next lot of water.

Scott Brady: Mm.

Lance Gillies: Things like that. Yet they wouldn’t, uh, typically, and this is not a, this is not a black and white thing, but typically, you know, we wouldn’t spend a lot of time insulating, um, water tanks.

I mean, none of the Earth Cruisers we built in Australia, um, have insulated water tanks, not one of them, because what for? Don’t need it. You don’t need it, you know? Yeah. So why would you carry that? Um, if you’re not careful, that can be a [00:53:00] more of a problem than a help because all of the spinifex, it gets caught up inside some of those things- Sure

and causes grief. And so it, um, like I said, you’ve just gotta have the experience. If you’ve ever seen a vehicle burn to the ground from, by spi- spinifex, it takes not very long.

Scott Brady: Oh, I’ve seen the carcasses- Yeah … like on the Canning Stock-

Lance Gillies: Exactly right …

Scott Brady: for example. But I’ve- Yeah. Yeah, fortunately I’ve not had one of my own vehicles burn down, but that’d be so scary.

Lance Gillies: You need it. And, and it happens like that. Yeah. It’s incredible. And so it’s all of that sort of stuff. I mean, the way the bash plates are made, the way, you know, little cubbies aren’t made for things like spinifex grass- Mm … could get caught. Here, if you drive around on spinifex grass, it’s not exactly the same, but i- if you, if you drive too much off-road here, off off-road here, you get in trouble.

Scott Brady: Yeah.

Lance Gillies: In Australia, well, you can because there’s not a lot of roads, you know? And so often that’s what happens.

Scott Brady: Yeah. I re- It’s different … I remember on the Canning Stock we had to have those special radiator guards- Mm-hmm … because it was just, it was days of driving in spinifex.

Lance Gillies: Yeah.

Scott Brady: It was incred- Yeah … it was incredible.

Lance Gillies: And it’s [00:54:00] got a, um, it’s very oily.

Scott Brady: Yeah.

Lance Gillies: Uh, de- depending what time of year you go there, yeah.

Scott Brady: Wow.

Lance Gillies: Yeah. So you can actually melt that down, and you can fix your, um, Jerry cans and stuff with it. Seriously. That’s fascinating. It’s, it’s, it goes as hard as arrow dike. It’s great.

Scott Brady: Oh, that’s fascinating.

Lance Gillies: Yeah.

Scott Brady: Um, when, when you look at, uh, your library at home or your bookshelf at home, what are some of your favorite books that you, that you- Ooh

would recommend that a tr- a fellow traveler read?

Lance Gillies: Oh, what a fabulous question. Oh, geez, I love that question. This one would probably be a little obscure. Um- I

Scott Brady: like that …

Lance Gillies: and it is Don’t Split the Difference by

Sorry, can’t think of the author’s name. It’ll come to me. This guy was a hostage negotiator for the FBI.

Scott Brady: Okay.

Lance Gillies: And that might seem like, hang on, what are you talking about? But it was really just about dealing with people and being able to get… And this guy wor- worked all over the [00:55:00] world, you know, in the Middle East and whatever.

And, and the book revolves a lot about, um, understanding what’s really going on in that conversation.

Scott Brady: What do people really need?

Lance Gillies: Um, really what it say- when someone says something, what do they really actually say?

Scott Brady: Ah, gotcha.

Lance Gillies: And, um, I’ve read it a number of times now. And, um, we were got in a tiny little bit of trouble.

Um, you got time for a very quick story?

Scott Brady: Yeah, let’s do it.

Lance Gillies: All right. Very quick story. We’re in the Sahara, um, and we’d, uh, just crossed the Sahara, or, uh, parts of the Sahara, I should say. The Sahara’s a big place. Anyway, and, um- Michelle said, “Go that way.” I blame her. It’s not her fault, it’s my fault. She said, “Go that way,” so I went that way and got stuck, right?

So in this, in, in, in our EC and got stuck. It took me 24 hours to extract it. And, uh, anyway, so then got it [00:56:00] extracted. We went to… And, uh, that’s right, we got it extracted, but we thought… And I wasn’t sure I was actually gonna get it out. My sister says, “No, there’s nothing.” I mean, we are talking Sahara Desert there.

Sure.

Scott Brady: There’s

Lance Gillies: nothing. All right? You know, did the, did… I’ve pulled a, I, I, I’ve extracted a few vehicles, and I would say this is probably the hardest one I’ve ever done. It wouldn’t have mattered what the vehicle was, ’cause there’s just nothing, nothing. Uh, you’re familiar with MaxTrax, I’m sure?

Scott Brady: Sure.

Lance Gillies: Right.

So one wheel turn, one wheel turn. The MaxTrax, you could watch them spear underneath the sand and you’d see, uh, a little, like a little wave. They would… And I have to… And they’d go down maybe two or three feet underneath the sand.

Scott Brady: Wow.

Lance Gillies: The sand was so fine when you walked on it, it went to your knees. And I just come over the top of the sand dune, ’cause it, we’d been in the sand dunes f- for a week.

Come over the top of the sand dune, come straight down. The truck started to go sideways, so it was right-hand turn and just nailed it to get it to go straight again. And, uh, it just sunk, boom, straight down. Straight- Wow … straight to the chassis rails. [00:57:00] And there was nothing around anyway, right? And, and it was getting early afternoon.

So anyways, ’cause it’s cool then, so I thought, “I will pull it out now.” And that’s when we discovered what was happening with the MaxTrax. So the little tether just snapped because… And, uh, uh, and they call it fish-fish or something like that, and it’s basically sand water. It’s just so fine. I’m not kidding, there’s two, still two MaxTrax sitting somewhere there.

I could never find them again. Wow. They, uh, they just… It was like they were going through water. True story. Wow. I’d never seen anything like it before in my life, ever. I mean, all over Morten Island, Fraser Island, blah, blah, blah. Across the Simpson Desert, blah, blah, blah. Done all that. Nothing pr- prepared me for that.

Anyway, so story short, we had a sat phone with us. We’re there, you know, now 20-plus hours trying to extract this thing. I thought, this, you know, we were still having nice meal. We were, everything, all of that was great. Sure. Living inside, that was terrific. But I was, I was thinking to myself, “Self, this is not fabulous.”

Um, and, uh, so we had a sat phone, and we started to ring to see if someone might be able to just be on the other side of that [00:58:00] sand dune so I could winch me way out and I’d be out in five seconds. So we found someone. Um, and, uh, they said, uh, kind of weird, in a weird way, “Yeah, we’ll meet you.” Um, they never did.

We got ourself out, long story short. Um, now, now, now it’s a full 24 hours. Stayed at this little, tiny little town somewhere and went to the John Mo- Dunmurry, ’cause we didn’t know where we were. Just, we just need to put everything back and get sorted, you know? Anyway, so we stopped at John Dunmurry and they were great.

You know, the, uh, military place. They let us in, no big deal, no, nothing special. Sliding door closed behind us, and we parked the truck in their, um, car park. 3:00 in the morning . It was the Mujahideen. Wow. They said, “You owe us some money.” They had went into the gîte d’étape, closed the door behind us so we couldn’t get out.

Scott Brady: Wow.

Lance Gillies: And, um, that was an interesting conversation. And so they [00:59:00] wanted this craz- crazy amount of money, and

Scott Brady: we said, “

Lance Gillies: Not gonna do that.” And so you talk about negotiating skills under pressure.

Scott Brady: I mean,

Lance Gillies: we didn’t have thousands of euro.

Scott Brady: Sure.

Lance Gillies: Um, and it was, it was a fabulous experience because as through broken English and French, what they really wanted to do was that the way they earn and p- a- and, uh, provide food for their family is by, not by shaking people down, is by rescuing people.

Scott Brady: Sure.

Lance Gillies: They just thought they could be there in, uh, two or three days, ’cause to me, nothing, nothing to them.

Scott Brady: Right.

Lance Gillies: And once they re- uh, ’cause they didn’t expect us to get out. So it doesn’t matter, we’ll just, we’ll get there when we get there. They got there, we were gone, and went, “Well, this is no good.”

Everybody knows everybody. You’re not gonna hide in a place like that. And so it was no time at all, they found where we are. We weren’t, you know, no, we weren’t trying to hide, we just didn’t know where we w- we were gonna do next. And so story short [01:00:00] was that once we understood what is it that you really want, it was, you know, 100 euro something, which we asked for the service.

Sure. They didn’t provide it, that wasn’t the point. The point was that we were guests in their country, and they absolutely would’ve provided the service.

Scott Brady: Sure.

Lance Gillies: But just not on our timeframe. Uh-huh. And whose fault’s that?

Scott Brady: Right.

Lance Gillies: You know what I mean? It was great. Love it. And so that’s- Oh, what a great story

so that’s, and no harm done, left as friends, all terrific, but you can see how quickly that could go berserk, right? If you’ve got half a dozen fellows in their normal, you know, gear, none of them looked happy. They were mad- Uh-huh. … ’cause they’d been looking for us. And, um, yeah, yeah, you’re bleary-eyed, what the heck’s going on?

Stuff like that, you know? So i- it’s a skill set, right? And that’s why I like that book, is that it, it was, um- I- if you, if you wanna go do something you’ve never done, uh, if you, if you wanna, uh, y- [01:01:00] you go … To do things differently, you’re gonna have to do things differently. Mm. Right? You’re gonna have to learn different skills.

And so that book, I think, is fabulous because it gives a moment of, “I never would’ve thought of it that way.”

Scott Brady: Mm.

Lance Gillies: You know what I mean? Does that make sense?

Scott Brady: Totally. And, and I think that’s one of the things that I love about travel so much, is that I am perpetually a student because- Oh, you have to be. You have to be

because ev- every pla- every place that I go to, I don’t know the language, I don’t know their culture. I, I don’t know anything. I’m completely clueless. Yeah. But I’m open-minded to learning. Yeah. Yeah. And I think that that’s … I think that’s one of the things about travel that appeals to me so much, is I get to be a student all the time.

Yeah. So.

Lance Gillies: And it’s wonderful.

Scott Brady: Yeah.

Lance Gillies: It is wonderful. And-

Scott Brady: Yeah, it’s so true …

Lance Gillies: and, um, I just have such a great respect for the people.

Scott Brady: Mm.

Lance Gillies: You know?

Scott Brady: Well, that’s a great book suggestion. We’ll add that to the show notes

Lance Gillies: as well. What about yourself? Come on, you don’t get off free. What do you got?

Scott Brady: Well, I’ve been, I’ve been reading a couple great books.

[01:02:00] Um, one of, one of the ones that I’ve been reading a little bit more from the stoics, and I like that. And given the timeframe that we’re in right now, uh, a book that I’ve been reading the last couple weeks is called The Obstacle Is The Way, and it does talk a lot about, um, the … During the Roman Empire, there was actually a plague as well, and the plague lasted for 15 years, and entire legions of Roman soldiers were consumed by it.

And, um, it, it’s just a great book that discusses that the challenges that we experience in our life, we’re not special. Mm. We don’t deserve, we don’t deserve to have a carefree life, that life includes challenge, and it’s all about our, how our, how we look at the challenges of per- from perspective of we’ve gotta get through it.

We’ve gotta figure it out. Mm-hmm. And I think now, at least in the modern age, now is a time for challenge, and it’s how we approach those challenges and how we overcome them, and the, and the attitude that we carry through that and the things that we learn about ourselves. [01:03:00] Instead of being woe is me or I deserve, I deserve something, we don’t deserve anything.

We

Lance Gillies: deserve nothing.

Scott Brady: Yeah. So, um- Yeah … how we approach those challenges, I think, teaches us a lot. Yeah. So it’s been a good book.

Lance Gillies: Yeah. I’d, I’d enjoy it. Yeah. I’d enjoy that too. We, w- we didn’t get to choose where we were born.

Scott Brady: Yeah. Right.

Lance Gillies: You know what I mean?

Scott Brady: Yeah.

Lance Gillies: So yeah. Yeah. I, I, um, I’m very grateful.

Incredibly grateful. Yeah.

Scott Brady: And I, I’ve got one last question for you. Sure. But if, if someone was wanting to, to get into overlanding and they came up to you at a, at an overland expo, and they’re, they’re wide-eyed and, and, uh, they, they see this experienced traveler, what would be the first piece of advice that you would give someone that said, “Hey, I’d love to get started with overlanding.

What should I do first?” What would be your first piece of advice?

Lance Gillies: Be, be confident in your motivation I mean, it’s not… Aeroplanes fly every- well, right now, not all the time, but typically aeroplanes fly all the time, right? [01:04:00] So be confident in your motivation. What, what is it? Uh, are you going to be the next fabulous blogger? Yeah. Are you gonna be, uh, the next wonderful, uh, cont- contributor to, uh, to the journal?

What is it that you really wanna get out of it? You know? Start from there and work backwards from there. And then it’ll be about vehicles, about where do I go. It’s gonna be all… Well, what, what are you hoping to get out of this?

Scott Brady: Yeah, being authentic to yourself.

Lance Gillies: Yeah.

Scott Brady: Yeah, that’s good. Start there. Good advice.

‘Cause I think people, they see a, a vision of maybe a certain type of vehicle or the way that someone travels, and they wanna emulate that, and maybe they miss the mark because they haven’t really decided what they want to get out of it themselves.

Lance Gillies: Yeah. I, I strongly believe life isn’t a rehearsal.

Scott Brady: Mm.

Lance Gillies: And so, you know, things happen.

But i- i- if we can do the very best we can to arm ourself with the best education we can, um, we’re a long way ahead.

Scott Brady: [01:05:00] Yeah.

Lance Gillies: You know, and I could talk for hours about vehicles and all the rest of it, and that’s great. I mean, it’s … I love trucks and travel. But, I mean, really, I mean, how many times have you sat around a campfire with someone who’s just…

They’re just really real.

Scott Brady: Yeah.

Lance Gillies: And it’s great, isn’t it? You just, you learn so much. And, um, you know, when the lights go out for the last time, you wanna go, “That was good.”

Scott Brady: Yeah, so true. Yeah. Well, Lance, thank you so much for your- No, no, thank you … for your time. I really appreciate it. I, I- Yeah, thank you

enjoyed, enjoyed talking with you today. I learned a lot myself, and, and I think that that is a lesson that comes out of this podcast, is for us to all have that mindset of a student, so that way we can learn about how to be better travelers, and we can learn a little bit about those places that we visit around the world.

And I really appreciate your time, Lance, and your, your generosity with your time here in beautiful Bend, Oregon. Yeah,

Lance Gillies: it’s not

Scott Brady: bad. Um, yeah, it’s not bad at all. [01:06:00] And, uh, we’ll include a bunch of information about the Earth Cruisers in the show notes if someone wants to find out some more about what Lance and his, uh, amazing team produces here in, in Bend, Oregon.

And we’ll include some information about his patrol and where he’s traveled in the world and, and some links to the books that we’ve referenced as well. And we thank you all for listening, and we will talk to you next time.

Lance Gillies: Thanks, Mike. Really appreciate it.

Scott Brady: You’re welcome.