Dan Grec of The Road Chose Me (Overlanding Africa)

Scott Brady

Scott Brady is an adventurer, author, and publisher, and the first person in history to cross all seven continents. Brady is executive publisher of the Overland Collective, home to Overland Journal, the Overland Journal Podcast, and expeditionportal.com—the world’s largest vehicle-dependent adventure community. Scott wrote Overlanding 101 (Simon & Schuster) and is currently riding around the world on his BMW GS. He also led Expeditions 7, the first expedition to drive the same vehicle on all seven continents. Brady’s polar crossings include Antarctica and a south–north crossing of the Greenland ice sheet. Scott is a fellow of the Explorers Club and lives in Prescott, Arizona.

Matt Scott

Matt is a leading expert in automotive adventure. He has extensively explored the world’s most remote places by 4WD and is considered an industry authority on overland travel. He is the only American to ever become an editor of a major Australian 4WD publication and has over 15 years of competitive auto racing experience. @mattexplore

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Transcript

Scott Brady: [00:00:00] Hello, and welcome to the first ever OVERLAND JOURNAL podcast. I’m here at the Overland Expo. I’m your host, Scott Brady, and my co-host, Matt Scott.

Matt Scott: How’s it going, guys?

Scott Brady: And we have got a distinguished guest. In fact, this is our first guest, and there’s a reason why he’s our first guest is ’cause he’s, uh, one of the most accomplished overland travelers in North America.

Um, welcome Dan Grech. Uh, thanks for being with us today.

Dan Grec: Thanks very much, guys. It’s a pleasure to be here.

Scott Brady: And, uh, being at Overland Expo, this is obviously exciting, um, to see all of the new equipment and all of the new vehicles, um, that generate so much interest in the space. But obviously for Matt and I, and I know for you as well, Dan, all of this really does come back to our passion for travel.

Um, and overlanding really is vehicle-based travel. It’s, it’s nothing other than that. It isn’t four-wheeling, it isn’t camping. Uh, it’s taking your vehicle and doing [00:01:00] something like you’ve done, uh, which is circumnavigate South America, and then, uh, over the last couple years, um, nearly circuit- circumnavigating Africa.

Um, so we, we know… We’ve got a couple questions for you, Dan, I think that will be helpful for the audience to know kinda who you are, what… a little bit of your background. Why don’t you give us the details?

Dan Grec: Absolutely, yeah. Um, so I grew up in Australia, relatively normal upbringing. My parents are both teachers, totally middle class.

I went to university, studied to be an engineer, and then came across to North America, chasing the snow and snowboarding and kind of that whole, like, after university what am I gonna do type of thing. And that’s when I bought my first kind of adventure vehicle. It was an old rusty, uh, Jeep XJ Cherokee.

And I was going canoeing on the weekends, I was hiking. Then in the winter, I was snowboarding. And I realized, you know, this vehicle could just take me anywhere. It kind of was limitless. And that really, really got me excited, and I hadn’t, at that point, explored much of North America, so it was a great opportunity to, to get out into the backcountry.

[00:02:00] And then kind of plans started growing and growing, and then I ended up driving all the way from Alaska to Argentina, uh, over the span of two years in a little two-door Wrangler.

Scott Brady: Awesome. And yeah, I remember that too. I remember when I first saw y- the first images coming out, I thought, “This guy is ama- this guy is amazing.”

I,

Matt Scott: I thought he was crazy. A-

Dan Grec: and it’s funny because that was 2009. I actually didn’t know what overlanding was. I’d never heard the word before. So you just did it. Yeah. You’re just like, “I wanna

Matt Scott: drive there. This is cool.”

Dan Grec: Yeah. “We’re gonna do it.” It wasn’t until I got to the border of, uh, Belize and Guatemala that I actually bumped into someone else doing the same thing, and he said to me like, “Oh yeah, man, we’re overlanders.”

And I was like, “Oh, I, I didn’t know that.” It’s a thing. It’s got

Scott Brady: a name. Yeah. Yeah. That’s got a name.

Matt Scott: Okay.

Scott Brady: Well, and it, and it’s interesting, that’s one of the questions that, uh, that we had. You, you have seen this market evolve. You’ve, you’ve seen it become a market. You’ve seen it evolve from, uh, those of us that were passionate about travel to now an industry.

Um, how does that sit with you? I mean, there are obviously some [00:03:00] positive things that come along with that, but what do you think the challenge is that we have as a industry as we go forward?

Dan Grec: Well, I mean, to start, I think the positives are that we’re just encouraging more people to get out there and- Mm.

Sure, yeah … do what they love. Whether it’s, you know, you wanna go fishing on the weekend, so you need a vehicle to take you to that great fishing spot, and, and you know, you wanna eat well, so you need a fridge, and you wanna sleep well, so maybe you need some sort of rooftop tent or similar. So I think that’s unbelievably positive that…

And we’re including Subarus, and we’re including, you know, non-traditional overland vehicles, let’s say.

Matt Scott: Like a two-door Jeep

Dan Grec: Like a two-door Jeep. So, so I think it’s great that we’re, you know, encouraging more and more people to get out and do what they love.

Scott Brady: Yeah, I agree, and I think that that’s the bottom line that, as an industry, we have to come back to is if we encourage the positive aspects of overlanding, which is e- experiencing new cultures, experiencing new places, um, then I think that will continue to be healthy.

I think once, um, once people put… Once they wrap too many badges around it, where you, you’ve gotta have [00:04:00] a, a Tacoma, or you’ve gotta have some s- Yeah … highly specialized vehicle to travel, um, and all three of us know that that’s absolutely not true. No. Um, uh, I think a two-door soft top Wrangler’s a great example of that, or me crossing the Silk Road in a Suzuki Jimny- Exactly

or Matt dr- you know, traveling around Southeast Asia on motorcycles. Um-

Matt Scott: Scooters, actually … scooters. They were, they were 49cc, let’s be honest.

Scott Brady: Right? And, and at the end of the day, for me, the thing that I come away from is the memories that I have. It’s not what I drove, it was the people that I encountered and the experiences that I had.

And it’s so important, I think, for all of us, especially someone in your position, Dan, that is inspiring so many people- Totally … uh, reminding them that… And you do that. I hear you when you talk to people. You remind them that, “Just go. Don’t be afraid. Just go.”

Dan Grec: Right. Yeah, and, and I think it’s fascinating.

Whenever you meet overlanders around the world, you know, early on maybe when you don’t know each other yet, there’s one or two questions about, you know, what vehicle do you drive, you know, what mileage does it get, what tires does it have. But that’s about the [00:05:00] end of it. After that, nobody really cares anymore ’cause you realize it’s not about the vehicle.

You know- Yeah … it’s more about, “Did you guys get to this cool waterfall? What, how was the border crossing?” You know, “What did you think of the food in Nigeria?” It’s, it’s the experiences that everyone actually cares about. Yeah, once- And the, and the vehicle, the vehicle takes us there … and, uh- So the vehicle’s, the vehicle’s great,

Matt Scott: but- And I think the vehicle’s so much less relevant these days.

I mean, most vehicles are pretty reliable. Most vehicles are very capable. I mean, look at what we have in North America right now. Like, we have a slew of internationally available pickup trucks. Just grab one and drive one. I mean- Absolutely right. The things that we would’ve had to do- And just go … 10 years ago you don’t really have to do.

I think it’s great. Yeah.

Dan Grec: Yeah, I agree 100% that vehicles today are so much more reliable and comfortable. You know- Capable. Yeah, yeah. You can drive, I mean, to the end of the planet in pretty much a showroom vehicle- Yeah … and, and not expect to have any problems.

Scott Brady: Yeah, there’s no question about that, and I think that even in the, the conversations that I’ve had at the show so far, reminding [00:06:00] people that if you buy a stock Tacoma, or a stock 4Runner, or a stock Jeep, um, any of the above, and you just leave, you’re gonna be okay.

Totally. There’s really only highly specialized environments, like the polar regions, that you have to have something that’s so heavily modified. Uh, now, there, there’s obviously the recognition that we do wanna get further afield, especially as more people travel or as we become more experienced as travelers ourselves.

Um, when you prepared your Jeep, what did you think about as far as getting further afield? Did you wanna get remote? Was that part of the goal?

Dan Grec: Absolutely, yeah. The reason I chose Africa was because I wanted to get, you know, further off the map than I’d ever been in the past. And for me, that really revolved around kind of creature comforts.

I wanted a better sleeping setup than just a ground tent, and I wanted to eat better food than just sort of ramen noodles and tin beans. And I knew I’d need drinking water. You know, all of the things to help me survive and thrive in those environments, rather than just kind of tolerate the trip and then be sick of it and, and wanna give up after six [00:07:00] months.

Scott Brady: Well, and that leads me, uh, to one of our questions is, uh, what’s the f- what’s the one thing that you had with you, and it can be the vehicle or something on the vehicle, that, that was your… It really changed the dynamic of the trip. It made such a leap forward from what you experienced in South America

Dan Grec: One piece of equipment, you mean?

Scott Brady: Anything.

Dan Grec: Well, actually, something I have with me, I don’t talk about it a lot, is I have a little photo album of photos of my family and, and some photos of adventures I’ve had around the world. And I have about six or eight of them stuck on the roof of my Jeep so I can see them when I’m upstairs asleep.

But about every three or f- six months, I rotate the photos out between ones that are still in the album packed away in a box. And every time I do that, I end up sitting down for a couple of hours and, and flipping through the photo album and, and- Mm … remembering all of those amazing times and my family, you know, back at home.

Scott Brady: And, and it… Do you feel like that’s a, a bit of a grounding exercise for you? Like, it reminds you of home, it reminds you of some of those elements that maybe takes you out of that space of being a [00:08:00] nomad for a minute? Or how do you feel that changes you?

Dan Grec: Exactly right. And it helps me sort of escape from maybe the, the harsh times or when I’m, you know, when I’m lonely and when I’m tired and when it’s pouring rain and there’s mosquitoes everywhere.

Yeah. It helps me sort of zone out a little bit and, and remember back to times that I’ve had with family and, and adventures that I’ve had.

Matt Scott: I think it’s so important when you travel, you have to have those little luxuries with you, you know? And, maybe luxuries is a weird word, but those non-essential things that kinda, when you don’t have a great day, they just kinda keep you going.

Dan Grec: Exactly right. And that ability to sort of go inside yourself and just have a good evening anyway- Yeah … even if you just have a peanut butter sandwich for dinner, but then be able to sleep warm and dry, and then get up in the morning refreshed and, and ready to sort of- Totally … you know, face the world again.

Yeah.

Scott Brady: Yeah, for me, that’s coffee.

Dan Grec: Yeah.

Scott Brady: I think that that’s the one luxury I can’t really travel without.

Dan Grec: Yeah. I- For

Matt Scott: me, for me, it’s rosé. But that’s a different story.

Dan Grec: Yeah, I’m totally on the coffee train now. So- Oh, yeah … it, it was like a mission in Africa to always find [00:09:00] good ground coffee. Like,

Matt Scott: it had to be done.

So, so on the opposite of that, you know, we know what your favorite thing that you had. What, what, what was the thing that you’ve carried around with you that you’ve never used? Like, you, every time you see it, every time you hit your foot on it, every time you have to move it around, you’re like, “Why do I have this thing with me?”

What is it? What is it for you? ‘Cause I know I have something that I have no idea why I carry. I think everybody does. You- Whether they carry it as superstition or because somebody down the road said that they’d have to have it.

Dan Grec: You know, I do have a set of hiking poles in my Jeep, you know, that you would take-

to, to hike on a mountain. Because I’d bought them in the Yukon years ago before I left, and they were really expensive, and I just couldn’t bring myself to, like, give them away or get rid of them. And so I kept convincing myself that I’d need them. And so they’re, they’re in the Jeep to this day, and I used them once in Cameroon.

So, so I did use them. Out of prin-

Scott Brady: out of principle, or…?

Dan Grec: Well, a bit of both. I, I did need them. But yeah.

Matt Scott: One day, I’m gonna need these.

Dan Grec: That’s right. In

Matt Scott: Cameroon.

Dan Grec: Exactly. Exactly. I, uh, it’s just one of those things where I, I try to be a minimalist, but somehow that one slipped under the radar.

Scott Brady: And, and what do you [00:10:00] think brought about that idea of minimalism for you?

Is that something that started well before you, you began traveling in this way, or has that really evolved since then?

Dan Grec: I think I started out as a backpacker originally. My brother took me out on, you know, multi-day hiking trips where you have to carry everything on your back, including your stove, including all your food.

And from that, I loved that sense of everything I need is on my back right now. You know, I don’t need all of that stuff that’s in my house. And I really enjoy that idea of I only need a small amount of stuff, you know, to be happy and content.

Scott Brady: Well, and, and as you’ve seen in your travels, um, the, when you go to developing countries, people are so much happier ’cause they have so much less stuff.

They don’t, they don’t have a mortgage to make u- usually. Um, they don’t have expensive things that are preoccupying all their energies to try to maintain. So I, I do see that certainly in other people, and I’m seeing it more and more in travelers.

Dan Grec: Yeah, absolutely. In, in other countries it feels like they just figured out that happiness, you can go [00:11:00] directly to it.

Exactly. Whereas we’ve kind of been tricked into thinking you need money and stuff, and that’ll somehow lead to happiness in some vague way. But I’ve saw so many people in Africa who just, they don’t really have the choice of getting lots of money or stuff, so they just say, “Oh, well, we’ll just go to happiness instead.”

Matt Scott: Yeah. I was going through my… This is a little weird, but I was going through my Amazon order history, and I realized when I’m traveling, I have zero orders. I’m not ordering anything. I’m not looking at Amazon. I’m not even considering buying anything. I’m just so content and happy. But when I’m at home, it’s like, you know, y- you’re trying to get that little, that little hit of serotonin or whatever it is that you normally get when you’re traveling, and you turn to consumerism.

I think it’s, I think it’s true that-

Scott Brady: It’s so true, and it’ll sneak up on all of us before- Yeah … we know it. It absolutely has that effect. Um, so beyond this idea of minimalism, which I do see you act out in your life, um- When you travel, um, one of the ways to travel obviously is to save a bunch of money and then go off and spend it over a series of years.

Um, it seems like you take a little bit [00:12:00] different approach. How, how do you normally fund your adventures?

Dan Grec: I definitely… I did what you just described for the first adventure. I just purely lived on my savings account. Um, and then for the second adventure, I kind of ran out of money and made some mistakes along the way, and so I realized I was gonna have to earn some money as I was traveling, and I really wanted to become a travel writer and photographer, and so I put a lot of energy and focus into that, um, and I published a book and I write for a handful of magazines.

Scott Brady: Yeah. And, um, so that the, the audience knows how to see more of Dan’s work, um, he has a website, Road Chose Me. He has a book related to that first adventure in, uh, South America, and he’s working currently on completing another book on his adventures through Africa. Um, tell us a little bit more about your other project, Wiki Overland.

Dan Grec: So when I traveled from Alaska to Argentina, I realized that by traveling in that way, you gain a lot of information about the border crossings, about insurance requirements per country, you know, gas prices in every country. [00:13:00] And at first I thought, you know, this would be a great thing to put in a book, but then I realized it’ll go out of date in a month.

And so I came up with this idea to have it as a community wiki where anyone can edit it and update it at any time. And so that’s the goal of Wiki Overland, to have it be the community encyclopedia of overlanding.

Scott Brady: I’ve used it.

Matt Scott: I’ve used it.

Scott Brady: Yeah, it’s a great resource. I remember, um, coming up to the Peruvian border on a motorcycle and just being like, “You know, I probably haven’t…

I’ve done any… I’ve done no research.” So I think I got more lucky than good at that border, but

Matt Scott: Yeah, I mean, I, I, I think whenever as a community we can, we can come together and, and c- provide a resource because that is the, the daunting thing about overlanding, about traveling, is people have anxiety about crossing borders.

They have anxiety about, “Where am I gonna be able to get fuel? What’s available?” And, and to have a resource, I think, I think that’s very commendable for you to, you know, not selfishly look at, you know, the, the profits that maybe you would’ve gotten on a book and, and to provide that to the community. I think it’s really cool.

Dan Grec: Thanks. Thanks. Yeah, I mean, it’s, it’s still [00:14:00] relatively small and, you know, it, it doesn’t get a lot of traffic, but I’m really happy whenever I see other people go in there and update it and, you know, gas prices get a tweak, and yeah, it makes me, makes me smile that there are other people out there doing…

crossing those borders that I crossed 10 years ago.

Scott Brady: Yeah. A- and the reality is, is it… the people that are doing big global travel, that’s a relatively small fraternity. Um, it doesn’t, it doesn’t mean that there aren’t numerous people doing that, but it’s not in the tens of thousands. Um, it’s in the thousands most likely.

Dan Grec: Right.

Scott Brady: Whereas there are people who want to go down and have their first Baja experience. Totally. And there are people who wanna drive to Alaska. There are people who wanna fly to Australia and rent a vehicle and drive around. Um, and, and that is always so exciting to see, and them having their own version of an adventure is what will spurn those next ideas.

Dan Grec: Exactly right, yeah. And, and all of those adventures you just mentioned, they’re all unbelievably good and valid and fun, and, and everyone who wants to, should, we should encourage them to go out and do them.

Scott Brady: Well, and, and that leads me to another [00:15:00] question. Like, what was the most fun or hilarious moment that you had in your travels in, in, uh, Africa?

Dan Grec: It was always really funny, um, in a lot of countries, you know, the locals kind of treat me differently because of the color of my skin versus their skin. And I think, you know, a lot of white people are sort of on a bit of a pedestal, or they’re sort of a little bit superior. And so some of the funnest moments I had was, like, I’d come across a vehicle that’s stuck in the mud, and I would just jump out of my Jeep, not wearing any shoes, and immediately sink up to my knees in the mud, and just watching the way the locals reacted to me.

At first, they were kind of horrified, and they almost wanted to, like, pick me up and carry me out of the mud. But then when I kind of waved them off, suddenly they’d be like, “Oh, this guy’s just like us. Oh, this guy’s really cool. We should hang out with this guy.” And then so there like a bunch of handshakes and invites and, and it just became a really hilarious way to kind of like break down this supposed separation.

Yeah, I always en- I, I kind of enjoyed doing it. It was fun.

Scott Brady: Oh, of course. And, and that’s when the smiles [00:16:00] come out, and that’s when the invitations come. And you- next thing you know, you’re, you’re having food with their family and, um, yeah, we are, we are so similar, and Africa being really the birthplace of humanity.

So it’s, it’s cool to be there.

Dan Grec: Absolutely, yeah. And to, and to really kind of sink in and get like under the skin of, of the way the culture works and the way that, yeah, communal eating is such a thing, and that family is such a thing. And it’s, it’s really cool to spend enough time to, to really get to know that.

Yeah.

Matt Scott: So, so that’s your best moment. Yeah. I wanna, I, I wanna know the nitty-gritty. I wanna know, I wanna know what you hated the most. What was your worst day? I’m talking food poisoning. I’m talking, you said earlier, “I was… I, I lost a bunch of weight ’cause I had malaria twice when I was there in-” How do you get through that stuff?

What, what, what was it for you?

Dan Grec: Um, malaria the second time around was really bad, but that actually wasn’t- That

Matt Scott: would have to be really annoying. You’re like, “Are you kidding me? This is happening again?”

Dan Grec: Yeah, and I mean, when you’re sick, you don’t really have a choice. Yeah. You just have to soldier through it.

I mean, it was horrible, and I don’t recommend anyone get it, but actually, that wasn’t [00:17:00] the worst day for me. The worst day, through a series of screw-ups on my behalf, um, the Jeep rolled without me in it. It hit a rock wall, and then actually pitched over onto its side. It landed on the passenger side in the middle of nowhere in Uganda, and I was standing kind of 20 feet away watching it-

as this happened. And so, you know, before the trip, I had a lot of people, you know, telling me I was an idiot and I was gonna die and all of that. And so to stand there in that moment and see the Jeep smash down on its side- I’m

Matt Scott: an idiot and I’m going to die …

Dan Grec: yeah, all of that suddenly of like all of those naysayers were right, and, and it was a huge, big, emotional kind of wave that came over me of like, “I failed.

I really- But- … they told me I was gonna fail, and I failed.”

Matt Scott: But your Jeep is behind me- … and I’m looking at it. So everything was okay. I mean, did, did you break glass? Did you have to replace anything? I mean-

Dan Grec: Amazingly-

Matt Scott: Like, that’s amazing to me that, that-

Dan Grec: No broken

Matt Scott: glass … I, I see some… So for everybody listening, there’s some duct tape on his passenger side fender, and otherwise you wouldn’t know it had [00:18:00] rolled.

Dan Grec: Right. And I put that duct tape in on Uganda, like 10 minutes after it happened. A bunch of locals pushed on the side, and I winched off a tree, and it came back up on the wheels just like that. And I mean, I was lucky, there’s no doubt about it, but suddenly what I thought was the end of the world, it turned out to be fine.

Yeah. It actually wasn’t a big deal at all, and I drove it, and I’ve been driving it ever since.

Scott Brady: Yeah, so often our fears of what might happen are nothing like what actually the end result ends up being. The borders are almost always easier than we think. Um, the bureaucracies are almost more fluid than we imagine, but, um, we do th- we do think about that.

I mean, I remember the first time I came to the Russian border, like, r- it’s Russia. It’s

Dan Grec: Russia. It’s heavy. It’s like, “Oh my God. Is this… Like, am I actually doing this?”

Scott Brady: Yeah, and they were, they were… They just thought… They, they liked our trucks. They thought it was… Just like anybody else. But you don’t know that, and you, in your mind, you think, “I’m going into Russia.

I’m going to get interrogated.” Right. “I’m going into the dark room.” Yeah, all the bad things. And, and of, and of course, none of that happened, but [00:19:00] you, you can let your imagination run free for a little bit.

Matt Scott: People are good. Governments are bad.

Scott Brady: Yeah, for sure. Yeah, for sure. Awesome. Well, tell us a little bit more, um, about the vehicle.

Tell us, like, what were the modifications that you did to the Jeep that you thought were the most effective, um, for your travel?

Dan Grec: So I really… I spent a long time thinking about it and planning it. And so to be honest, there must be 1,000 design hours into that thing of different systems and different approaches.

And so for me, I have a drinking water tank mounted underneath with a, a filtration and UV treatment system, and that I use five times every single day, and that is easily the most used system on the Jeep, and I would say the most critical for Africa. Um, I do have a fridge, dual batteries, and solar setup.

And, you know, having cold water when you’re in Africa is a wonderful thing. I actually don’t want to imagine a trip in Africa without a fridge. I don’t think that would be very enjoyable. Um, and then also I do have a pop-up roof, so I can sleep up, up on top of [00:20:00] the Jeep essentially. And just to be able to sleep so well and be warm and dry and out of the mosquitoes, again, it just…

it’s, it’s all of these living modifications that really helped me be, like, happy every day and be thriving in that environment, even when, you know, it was torrential downpour or whatever else was going on.

Scott Brady: So having a place to retreat, um, and relax, and maybe even do a little bit of work

Dan Grec: somewhere.

Exactly, yeah. Read a book, watch a movie on my laptop. And, and the more you travel, the more you meet overlanders who talk about this, you know, mythical interior living space thing. It’s like, how do I get more interior living space? And, and I love camping. I love being outside cooking and reading a book, and that’s great when the weather cooperates, but there’s that one or two days a month when it’s just horrible to be outside

Matt Scott: Yeah, I mean, I know in our latest Jeep build that was, that was our big thing.

We just wanted… You know, we’re in Arizona, where, you know, that’s kinda I guess where we do most of our stuff these days, in Baja, and beaches get cold at night. And to be able to just [00:21:00] kinda retreat when you’re, you know, in Baja for a month, and you’re covered in saltwater, and you’re sweaty, and you know, you wanna kill everybody else around you, to be able to read a book and retreat, I think that that’s a, kind of a universal thing that a lot of travelers really are, are, are moving towards.

Dan Grec: Yeah. You

Matt Scott: know, first I think it was the roof tents, and now it’s the vehicle conversions. You know, if you can afford it, I think, I think it’s a really, it’s a sweet setup.

Dan Grec: Yeah. I have to agree. I, I traveled with a couple from Germany, and they had a big sports mobile kitted out. And as we were traveling together, you know, we’re on the same roads in the Congo.

They had four wheels on the ground. They got similar mileage to me, you know, similar maintenance requirements in terms of oil changes, but their interior living space was maybe four times bigger than mine.

Matt Scott: Yeah.

Dan Grec: All three of us could sit in there and cook dinner and be, be many feet apart, and to me, that just blew my mind, of like, “My Jeep is small,”

Matt Scott: Yeah

Dan Grec: compared to a vehicle that has all that interior space. I

Matt Scott: mean, I mean, here we are at Overland Expo. We’re recording this in a Sprinter van that’s converted into [00:22:00] a camper, and we’re all relatively comfortable. Like, I, I, I- Very comfortable, yeah … I could see why people do this.

Dan Grec: Absolutely. You… I mean, there could be two or three more full-sized guys in here, and we- Sure

still wouldn’t be shoulder to shoulder.

Matt Scott: Yeah. Sure.

Dan Grec: Yeah.

Scott Brady: So for your, um, your next adventure, um, where do you think you wanna go, and what vehicle do you wanna bring for that one?

Dan Grec: You know, I, I made a couple of promises to myself at some point in Africa. Criteria number one is there has to be no malaria wherever I’m going

And criteria number two, hopefully, is no humidity. Um, so that kind of limits me a little bit, and I certainly, I’m dreaming of Central Asia. I’m dreaming of the Silk Road.

Matt Scott: Yeah.

Dan Grec: You know, Mongolia, Nepal, Northern India. I, I’ve never been, and, and I’m a mountain guy. And so if I could get into that part of the world for a couple of years, I think I’d be extremely happy.

Scott Brady: Yeah, that would be an incredible trip, going from London to Singapore or something along that, or even, even just getting into India via Central Asia. I remember doing the Silk Road and, and I really enjoyed [00:23:00] all of those places. I mean, the mountains are incredible and the, and the culture is so different.

It’s, it’s hard to find places in the world where cultures are relatively intact.

Dan Grec: Right.

Scott Brady: Um, and Central Asia remains one of those places that, um, has bucked some of the Western trending that we see. Um, and you can actually have a very original experience with those cultures.

Dan Grec: Great. I’m, I’m so happy to hear that because I feel like I got a bit spoiled in West Africa.

When I was in the Congo, when I was in Gabon, it’s, it’s like going off the edge of the planet. You know, people that have never seen tourists before. And then when I got into more touristed places like Kenya, I was kinda disappointed and I kind of thought, you know, “Ah, this is, this is crap. There’s too many tourists here.”

So yeah, it is a goal of mine to try and go places where there’s no tourists.

Scott Brady: Oh, that would be… Well, that’ll be another great book. I look forward to reading about that.

Matt Scott: Yeah, and I think China too is relatively open now. I’ve heard some rumors going around that you can actually self-drive without a guide now.

Dan Grec: Ah.

Matt Scott: Now, you still need a permit from a, [00:24:00] a travel agency, but the travel agencies that have the authorization to do this won’t. And I think that that opens, you know, that… Kind of finishing that Silk Road, you used to have to do that in a caravan, and that’s, that’s incredibly expensive. And Vietnam now, 30 days you can, you can go in and enter that.

Dan Grec: Right, and it’s no problem to join a caravan to get across Myanmar as well. So you can link up-

Matt Scott: You can, you can- … India with Southeast Asia … you can go into Myanmar on your own now.

Dan Grec: Oh, really?

Matt Scott: Yeah. Awesome. Yeah, Ray Hyland, um- Oh … drove a Series 1 Land Rover from London to Singapore with his family three large boys and his wife in a 1958 Series 1 with a wheel base of, like, I don’t know, 12 inches or something.

I, I don’t know how they do that, but he did it all on his own.

Scott Brady: Yeah, it’s amazing. That’s great. In fact, I was just on a panel with, um, a woman that rode from India. Her name is Candida, and she waited for a group, ’cause it was $7,000 to cross Myanmar. Mm. Um, and, uh, she waited for a group to spread that money out over a larger- Yeah

a larger group of people. But it’s pretty [00:25:00] amazing, um, how travelers are solving this problem.

Dan Grec: That’s right. Yeah, and it feels like everywhere in the world that sort of has a block or is a problem, like, people are working on solving it and making it more doable. Yeah, the

Scott Brady: world’s changing

Matt Scott: rapidly.

Dan Grec: Right.

Rapidly. Right. When I got to Angola, it was still hard to get the visa. Now Angola has a visa on arrival. Wow. So it’s become completely open to tourism. Yeah.

Scott Brady: Oh, that’s amazing. Mm. Well, and s- and Southern Africa is just such a special place in the world. So to be able to get up into Angola freely from Namibia, especially from the Caprivi Strip, I mean, what a neat area to get into.

Dan Grec: Absolutely. Yeah, and, and you feel like you’ve gone back in time 50 years when you do that.

Scott Brady: Right.

Dan Grec: Yeah, it’s amazing.

Scott Brady: Well, you mentioned traveling, uh, with another couple that had a sports mobile, but that meant that a lot of the other parts of the trip you were traveling alone. Um, how did you enjoy that?

Dan Grec: Um, I have a love-hate relationship with traveling solo. Some days I really revel in it because locals will invite me for food, and because, you know, it’s on me to learn the language. [00:26:00] And I kind of enjoy being the master of my own everything. I have to do all the driving, the navigating, the cooking. It, it’s on me, you know.

Uh, can I handle this? Am I tough enough? Um, but then definitely on the other side of the coin, I absolutely get lonely, and I absolutely start to question, you know, what am I doing? Why am I even here? If I don’t have anyone to share it with, you know, is what I’m doing even valid? Is it even… Does it have a point?

And I think that’s part of what has inspired me to, to start writing and to start documenting my travels, you know, in a better way, because then I can share it. Even if the people aren’t immediately with me, I can share it with people who, who can then come back and give me feedback and, and kind of help remind me that it was real.

Matt Scott: Yeah.

Dan Grec: Yeah.

Matt Scott: I think it’s important to recognize those emotions while you’re traveling. Like it… You know, with Instagram and, and, and media these days, we only talk about the good things, you know? And there are a lot of not so good things that are involved with travel, but it’s all part of the experience, and it’s, it’s nice to hear you [00:27:00] recognize that.

I mean, I, I remember when, when we drove around Australia- On like the 14th day of fly meltdown, I just, I wanted to give up. And you know, everybody I think goes through that, but no one really talks about it. And I mean frankly, I mean Scott, like as a publisher, like would you, would you ever publish somebody’s rants about what they hated about, about their experience?

Like that’s not what you want to portray, but it does, you know, I, I, I think it’s valid.

Scott Brady: It is valid and, and we have published some, some really difficult experiences that people have had. I remember one couple, um, actually killed a, a young man in Africa with their vehicle.

Dan Grec: Wow.

Scott Brady: An accident. And, um, she went into a lot of detail about her own grief and about- Yeah

working through that grief with the family, and about, um, they had several opportunities to pay off officials and get out of the situation. Um, and they decided as a couple that they had an accident, a young boy [00:28:00] died, and that they were gonna honor his life by taking responsibility for what happened. Um, and it’s pretty rare that we’ll publish something like that, but it’s an important reminder not only that we need to be responsible as, as- Yeah

travelers, um, but also that things don’t always go as, um, as well as maybe portrayed in some of the, the blogs or Instagram, um, feeds that we’ll see, um, in social media. Um, but it is a reality. Challenges do occur.

Dan Grec: Yeah, absolutely. And, and I’ve always described traveling as a bit of a rollercoaster, where some days you’re on the top of the world and you have a 10 out of 10 day, but then the very next day you could have a zero out of 10 day, you know?

And, and everything in between, and you never really know what you’re gonna get. So yeah, there definitely you have those days where you’re really low on the, on the curve and, you know, you’re not necessarily enjoying it, and you start to question, you know, “Is this a good idea? Do I need to change something or, or do something else for a while?”

Scott Brady: Uh, you talk a lot about, uh, ver- from a very positive perspective about your travels, and you get [00:29:00] people very much inspired, um, in person when you get a chance to do that. Um, talking with a large audience like this, like what, what are some of the things that you feel are important from a responsibility standpoint?

Like, as a traveler, what are some of the things that you think about when you go into a new country? How do you, how do you behave? How do you interact with locals? Um, what do you see as the ethics of overland travel from Dan Grech’s perspective?

Dan Grec: Yeah, I definitely, I feel a responsibility to be an ambassador.

You know, I’m from Australia originally, but I kind of associate with Canada, and so I feel a responsibility to, to represent those countries well. And for, for some of the people I’m meeting, you know, I may well be the very first person from those countries that they’ve ever had time to, to sit down and talk with.

And so I think it’s really important to, to treat people well, and to, to take the time to ask how they’re doing. And, you know, even if they’re just stamping your passport, it’s like they’re a person too, and, and so I think it’s really important to treat everyone we [00:30:00] meet as we go along like people. Um, and even, you know, when there’s no gas and you, and you get a bit frantic and you get a bit sort of stressed about, “How, how am I ever gonna get out of this?”

It’s like when a guy, you know, spends his own money to show up in a taxi and he has a container of gas, it’s like, you should be nice to him. Yeah. Like, he’s really, he’s really helping you here. And, and yeah, it’s stressful and it’s hard to remember, but I, I think it’s, it’s really critical that we, we leave a good legacy of, like, yeah, we roam and we’re sort of passing through, but we’re, we’re leaving sort of happiness or we’re, we’re doing it positively rather than just sort of being grumpy so-and-sos the whole time.

Scott Brady: Yeah, and have you noticed that you’ll have an experience at a border that goes perfectly smooth, everybody’s having a good time, you’re, you’re laughing and you’re having g- great memories with these border officials, and you’ll talk to some other traveler that’s grumpy, and they went through the same border, and they had a totally different experience?

Dan Grec: Absolutely right.

Scott Brady: The

Dan Grec: world is what I make it. Yeah. Yeah, yeah. And pretty quickly you see, like, from their attitude, you’re like, “Oh, if you’ve been treating people that way, I understand why they treated you that way in [00:31:00] return.”

Matt Scott: Yeah.

Dan Grec: Yeah. And so I, I’ve found all along the, the greatest sort of skill that I have in my travels is I take off my sunglasses, I hold out my hand, and I say, you know, “Hi, how are you?”

Scott Brady: Make a connection. Make a connection, absolutely. Yeah. And, uh, Matt, what, what’s new with you? What’s new with, uh… You got some Gladiator thing out here.

Matt Scott: Yeah, yeah. So we, uh, we decided to build a Gladiator. I was, I was driving one at the press launch a few months ago and loved it so much I bought one on the spot.

And, uh, I wasn’t even back to the hotel that Jeep was putting us up at, and I, I just have to say, man, that, that vehicle is so impressive. You know, I, I think it’s great that, you know, you have your, you know, your JK Unlimited, and it’s cool to see more people driving Jeeps, ’cause I think- You know, there’s a lot of car companies out there.

There’s a lot of options. There’s a lot of really good options. You know, I think overlanders kind of pigeonhole themselves into, you know, Land Cruisers or Defenders or whatnot. But, you know, Jeep as a company is so fantastic. They actually listen [00:32:00] to the customers, you know? The, the, the J- JL or the JT or whatever you wanna call it is the perfect example of that.

You know, it has the switches built in for my auxiliary stuff. I can control them through the touch screen if I want them to be momentary or if I want them to be on all the time. You could put a … You could wire a fridge into it. Um, you know, the lockers. It, it, it’s … They’re fantastic vehicles, and I’m glad to see that they’re getting more traction in the space.

Um, you know, we opted to put a, an AT Overland Summit camper on the back. It’s only about 350 pounds, um, but it’s fully insulated. And going back to having that, having that space that is your own to retire to at the end of the day, you know, I think for people that are in this for the long haul, they’re not, they’re not just going out for the weekend.

This is a lifestyle for them. They’ve been doing it for … Man, I’ve been doing it for almost a decade now, which isn’t as long as you guys have, but, you know, it’s, it’s a fair bit. And I wanna be doing this when I’m 60 or 70. And giving yourself every advantage to be the positive person at, at the border [00:33:00] crossing or wherever you are, you know, I, I think, I think that those are luxuries that are, that are really valid, you know?

At the end of the day, sure, you could, you could have a tent or something, but, you know, for me it’s, it’s needs versus wants. If somebody that’s building a vehicle says that they need to have 37s or they need to have Dynatrac axles, you know, yeah, those are great, very functional things, but, you know, you don’t need them.

I’ll tell you a million reasons why you don’t need stuff. But, you know, when it comes to wanting stuff, I think, uh I don’t think anybody can say anything and-

Scott Brady: Yeah, they-

Matt Scott: And I want this Gladiator. It is, it is fantastic. Yeah. We just put, like, 3,000 miles on it coming out from, from Arizona to Overland Expo East and all around DC for a wedding, and it drives great.

Like, I- it’s so cool where we are in vehicles today, how many options, legitimate options Overlanders have. Like, we are at the golden age of the four-wheel drive.

Scott Brady: I would say so.

Matt Scott: Like-

Scott Brady: Absolutely …

Matt Scott: [00:34:00] you know, people will, you know, reminisce about Defenders or FJ40s or whatever, but empirically, those vehicles actually sucked.

I mean, the Defender could never keep out dust. Like- Right … let, let’s just, let’s just go with that. You know, the FJ40, you’d end up, you know, a, an inch shorter by the time you get out of it from spinal compression. Where now any, any vehicle in North America, I mean, we have the Ranger now that’s a global platform.

We have the Colorado that’s a global platform. You know, we have the Gladiator. That’s gonna be a global platform. I mean, Fiat Chrysler is, I, I wanna say they’re the largest automobile manufacturer. Mm. Them or, them or Volkswagen, um-

Scott Brady: They’re

Matt Scott: one of the

Scott Brady: largest, for sure.

Matt Scott: I think it’s so cool.

Dan Grec: Yeah.

Matt Scott: I- Lots of options

Dan Grec: I agree so much, and it’s great. I love watching, you know, what other people are doing and how and, ’cause I always think, too, there’s no such thing as perfect in a vehicle or a build. There’s pros and cons to everything. But it’s really fun to, to start a new vehicle and a new build and then really enjoy the pros, learn from the cons, and then at some point you might move on again to something else [00:35:00] that’s gonna have a whole different set of pros and cons.

Maybe, you know, you’ll go for more luxury than your last vehicle, but then, you know, you’ll miss the four-wheel drive capability, so then your next vehicle after that be- comes back to more, kind of, four-wheel drive. And I feel like it’s just an ongoing process we all go through.

Matt Scott: I mean, do you think you could see yourself in a Gladiator?

I know, I know that you’ve made some comments towards me. I mean-

Dan Grec: Absolutely. I mean, the things that interest me the most is it has a bigger payload than a Wrangler, and simply because it has a longer frame, that gives me more room for water tanks and gas or diesel tanks.

Matt Scott: Yeah.

Dan Grec: And those actually right now are the things I’m thinking the most about.

Matt Scott: Yeah. And they’re coming out with a diesel. How

Scott Brady: do you extend your

Dan Grec: experience? Yeah. How do I get further from the beaten path? Like, on, on my Wrangler right now, I could carry more gas, but it’s already over its payload, it’s, it’s getting kind of… You know, now I’m just bolting stuff on the outside. It, it would not be ideal to put another 20 or 50 gallons on it.

Scott Brady: And yeah, that’s an interesting challenge we’re in though now too, because the new diesel motors do not tolerate most [00:36:00] African diesel very well.

Matt Scott: Or even Mexico.

Scott Brady: Yeah.

Matt Scott: Mexico’s on low sulfur diesel outside of their major cities.

Scott Brady: Yeah. So that’s another thing that we have to r- recognize as travelers. Most of the vehicles that we buy in the United States need to be gas, at least for a period of time.

Um, anyone, any of the vehicles with particulate filters or- Yeah … catalytic converters on diesel.

Matt Scott: Trying to find that diesel exhaust fluid and-

Dan Grec: Yeah. And actually- … in Africa

Matt Scott: it’s

Scott Brady: unknown. Yeah, imagine. Yeah.

Dan Grec: A good German friend of mine, you know, he’s had all kinds of diesel Land Cruisers and Land Rovers, and he has the Sportsmobile now, and he actually is quite adamant that the best overlanding vehicles right now, they’re gas, they’re not diesel.

Because of the- They’re simpler … because of the trouble with the new diesel engines, like we’re saying. And he, he knows of too many people who’ve driven off into, you know, Mongolia, and the engine blows up because of the bad diesel. But he’s like, “If you drive a gas, it just works.”

Scott Brady: Well, and not only that, people think that diesel is what’s ubiquitous, that it’s what you’re gonna find everywhere in the world.

No, you’re gonna find gasoline, ’cause that’s what motorcycles run on.

Dan Grec: Right.

Scott Brady: Yeah. [00:37:00] And the first, the first vehicle for anybody in the developing world is gonna be a motorcycle. It’s not gonna be a car. Exactly. So motorcycles are everywhere, so you can find gasoline, even if it’s on the black market. I remember I was in northern Uzbekistan, and they, the country had no fuel in the northern part.

And, uh, I went to the black market, and sure enough, you could find gasoline, because that’s what the motorcycles ran on.

Matt Scott: Yeah. And, and I, I think the big thing, too, is the simplicity. You don’t have that DPF. You don’t have, you know, the, the, the, where they recycle the exhaust gas re- recirculation. They’re, they’re simple.

I mean, I don’t, I don’t, I don’t know. I mean, my, my other vehicle is like the e- epitome of the, the, the diesel overland vehicle you want. It, it’s a, you know, a Land Cruiser. It’s diesel. It’s completely mechanically injected. It does not need a computer to run. But-

Scott Brady: Those are rare. You can’t find those anymore.

Matt Scott: Yeah, but

Scott Brady: it- You just gotta buy a used vehicle …

Matt Scott: it, but they’re not the, you know, the sunshine and rainbows that everybody thinks that the diesels are. They’re, it, the, it’s really [00:38:00] slow, you know? I’m, I’m 35 mile an hour uphills and I’ve spent, you know, a, a, a fair chunk of change on turbos and intercoolers and, and all the stuff that the Australians do to those to, to reliably get power out of them.

And, you know, the, the small diesels that they put in pickup trucks, like I, I feel Americans tend to, you know, since they’ve never really experienced these vehicles, they-

Scott Brady: Yeah, they romanticize it

Matt Scott: a little bit … they r- they, yeah, they’re very romantic. But drive a, a Hilux diesel and you’re probably gonna be disappointed.

I mean, remember the J8 we had- Yeah … a, a while ago. Yeah. You know, that was the rest of the world spec vehicle, and it was great, but it wasn’t, it wasn’t what people thought it was. You know, the, the gas engine was faster. And this one was even tuned, I believe- Yeah … by Mopar. So,

Scott Brady: yeah. You know, it’s an interesting time that we’re in when it comes to vehicles, and it’s an exciting time, too, when you just walk around the aisles of Overland Expo.

Any iteration imaginable, um, [00:39:00] comes to mind. But I, you know, I think in, as we kind of bring the podcast to, to some close is, you know, from your perspective now having traveled extensively around two continents, um, plus your time that you’ve spent in North America as well, um, so three continents of, of travel, what are some of the things that you wanna share with people?

Like, you’re, like, what are the… How do you distill all of this down to s- to these bite-sized nuggets that people can then take their own action towards travel with?

Dan Grec: It’s such a hard thing to do, Scott. You know, it, it was three years in Africa and, and I feel like I owe Africa a responsibility to, to do a good job of explaining, you know, how happy the people are and how wonderful of a continent it is.

Um, and so I feel like for me, I always just try to encourage people to, to get out however they can and, and, you know, start going out on weekends and enjoy those trips. And then, you know, next time you’ve got a long weekend, go a little further afield, and then maybe work on your boss for a couple of years and, and get the time to go up to [00:40:00] Alaska for a summer.

And just keep sort of exploring and learning and, and growing as you want to. You know, this whole idea of, “I’m going overlanding,” you know, each person needs to sort of, I think, discover that on their own.

Scott Brady: What that is for them.

Dan Grec: Yeah.

Scott Brady: For sure. Absolutely. Well, what’s next after Overland Expo? You gonna take a few weeks off or what’s, what are you, what are you doing?

Dan Grec: I’ve got a couple more shows lined up here on the East Coast, and then- Which

Scott Brady: ones are you going to?

Dan Grec: Uh, the Virginia Rooftop Tent Rally is next weekend. And then actually I’m speaking at Jeep Homeland, which is a new dealer in Savannah, Georgia. They’ve built a huge, big off-road course. Looks really impressive.

Scott Brady: That’s cool.

Dan Grec: Yeah.

Scott Brady: Very cool.

Dan Grec: And then I’m over to SEMA, which will be the last show of the summer, and, and it’ll be my first SEMA, so I’m really excited.

Scott Brady: And are you gonna have the vehicle on display?

Dan Grec: Oh, definitely.

Scott Brady: Oh, that’s great.

Dan Grec: Yeah, yeah, and- Well,

Scott Brady: you’ll enjoy it.

Dan Grec: Yeah, yeah. I mean, I’ve heard that it’s automotive madness, which is- It is madness

my, my kind of madness, which is great.

Scott Brady: It is madness, yeah. Well, and it’s, and it’s always an interesting confluence of people, right?

Matt Scott: Yeah.

Scott Brady: So… Yeah, no, no, SEMA’s worth doing. I, I think after about 15 [00:41:00] years of doing it, I think I’m waning a bit. But I always do find it interesting. It never, never has a shortage of being interesting.

Matt Scott: Yeah, a- any excuse that I can find to get out of SEMA at this point, it’s, it’s, it’s good for a day for me. You know, the, the, the 30th F-250 you see on 24-inch rims and a 14-inch lift, it- Yeah … gets a little bit challenging. But I think the cool thing, um, you know, is to have your vehicle there. I mean, it is…

There’s a lot of overland, and I’m using air quotes here, builds at, at that show, but to have your truck that is so legitimate, I mean… And where can people find it at SEMA? Are you in a booth, or…?

Dan Grec: It’s going to be outside. I think it’s right at the entrance of the south hall.

Matt Scott: Cool.

Dan Grec: Perfect. Yeah. Yeah,

Scott Brady: that’s great.

Dan Grec: Um, yeah, and I hope people do appreciate, you know, that it really has been used. And, yeah, it’s got rust and it’s got dents and scratches from the rollover. Yeah. Uh, but it’s, it’s what it really looks like if you go and use it as it was designed and built to be used.

Scott Brady: And, and Dan, how else can people follow you?

What’s, what’s your Instagram? How do they follow you, um, in your [00:42:00] travels?

Dan Grec: Hmm. On Instagram I am the_road_chose_me, and then I’ve got YouTube videos as well from all across Africa, and that is also the road chose me.

Scott Brady: Awesome. And then we’ve of course got h- we have Matt Scott here, and Matt, um, imports the MAXTRAX product.

Um, he’s been a part of the overland community since its inception in the United States. Matt, how do people, uh, follow your adventures?

Matt Scott: So you can follow my sporadic ramblings on Instagram. Um, mattsexplore is, uh, is my handle, and that’s probably the best way to, to find me. You can, you know… Background, I’m an automotive journalist, so kinda got my start working with Overland Journal, and I still write for them.

Um, also do automotive reviews for Outside Magazine, so if you happen to read that and read something about a car that you disagree with, you can, you know, complain to me on Instagram, so.

Scott Brady: Yeah, in fact, uh, Outside, uh, has a really great website. It is outsideonline.com. Um, and they do have some really comprehensive, thoughtful vehicle reviews as the [00:43:00] overlanding segment becomes more and more engaged with the outdoor world.

Matt Scott: Yeah. No, it’s, it’s really great. They, they- They’re kind of an old-school publication. They really put the reader first, and, and I think that that’s something to be said, something to be said for that these days.

Scott Brady: Absolutely. Well, thank you all for listening. Again, this is our very first podcast, brought to you at the Overland Expo East, and we will talk to you again next time.

Matt Scott: See you, guys.

Dan Grec: Thanks,

Scott Brady: guys. Thank you