Principles of Overlanding International Travel Security for Overlanders

Overland Journal Podcast host Scott Brady interviews JJ, a U.S. Department of State Foreign Service/Diplomatic Security professional based in Sub-Saharan Africa, about practical travel security for international travelers and overlanders. JJ shares how his background and overseas work shaped his approach to preparation, including using travel.state.gov for country-specific requirements, enrolling in STEP for alerts and consular support, and keeping hard and digital copies of key documents. They discuss what to do if you lose a passport, handling medical emergencies, and why travel advisories often specify regions and changing security postures. JJ covers common mistakes with restricted items (prescriptions, knives, drones, sat phones), border-crossing behavior and organization, cultural respect and avoiding confrontation, communication plans with multiple backups, avoiding night driving and excessive speed, using local knowledge, and guidance on complying during robberies. JJ also recommends two books: “Surfing: What Surfing Taught Me About Love, Life, and Catching the Perfect Wave” and “Out of Captivity.”

Overland Journal Podcast Episode #180

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Transcripts

Scott : [00:00:00] Hello, and welcome to the Overline Journal Podcast. I am your host, Scott Brady, and I’m joined today by my good friend JJ. Now, JJ works for the Foreign Service, and he works in particular, uh, with travel security and security considerations for Americans that are traveling abroad. Now, he is based in Sub-Saharan Africa, and I had the chance to meet up with him when I was in Kenya, and we talked at great length about travel security.

Now, this applies to not only Americans, but to anyone else traveling around the world. We do the deep dive into documentation, ways to prepare for your trip. We also talk about things to do, things not to do, how to enroll in the STEP program,

JJ: and some other really important considerations for the traveler.

So please enjoy my conversation with JJ.

Scott : So JJ, thank you so much for being on the podcast today. It i- it’s a huge [00:01:00] honor for me to interview you, and I’m also so excited about this because you have so many actionable pieces of advice for people that are traveling. Uh, you’ve done a lot of travel around the world in all forms of auspices, so it’s just a really exciting opportunity for our podcast to be able to spend this time with you.

JJ: Yeah, likewise, it’s, it’s, it’s a great honor for me as well to, to join in on the podcast. Um, I think I’ve heard every episode- … probably.

Scott : Awesome.

JJ: So to be able to join in and, and if I can contribute in any way, you know, that, that definitely is worthwhile.

Scott : Sure. Well, and we can start off by assuring all of the listeners that we’re both crazy because we own, we own Land Rover Defenders.

JJ: That’s right. Yeah, I think that was the, that initial connection. Uh- Yeah. … we, uh, we definitely share the, uh, the hardships, uh, uh, of those

Scott : things. Yeah, although yours, yours definitely has the best headlights I’ve ever seen on a classic Defender. I mean, they actually worked.

JJ: Yeah,

Scott : yeah. I could actually see behind me.

JJ: No, yeah. It’s, uh, I… it’s been a process- Sure … I think as, [00:02:00] as most say, but, um, but, uh, it’s been worthwhile.

Scott : Yeah, no doubt. Well, I think it would be, it would be fun to hear a little bit about what sparked your interest in- In working for the federal government and working then internationally, what kind of s- what was the first sparks for you on that?

JJ: Um, well, you know, I’m from a border community. I’m from Yuma, Arizona, and, um, I grew up crossing the border to see family all the time. And at the time, you know, it didn’t seem like anything special, um, or like that was even crossing an international border-

Scott : Sure …

JJ: at the time. Um, I think that later in life, um, a- as growing up in Arizona, you know, we had off-road vehicles, and we’d get out.

Um, but you know, when I was about 19 years old, I did a church mission that took me to Colombia in South America, and when I was there, I just, I really caught the bug- Sure … on being overseas, and, um, it was something really [00:03:00] special. And so when later in life I had the opportunity to combine, you know, working and living overseas, um, and off-road travel and with vehicles, it all kind of came to a, uh, kind of a melting point, so.

Scott : Sure. Yeah. And now you get to do literally all of that-

JJ: Yeah …

Scott : on a

JJ: Yeah …

Scott : on a regular basis- Yeah … which is extremely cool. And if you were to give some advice to a listener that maybe has some of the same aspirations, what would be a couple pieces of advice for someone who wanted to work for the federal government internationally?

JJ: Yeah. I, I can talk a little bit about, you know, w- where I work with with the federal government. So I work for the US Department of State, and, um, the US Department of State is a huge organization. Um, I am with the US Foreign Service. So the US Foreign Service is a subset of the US Department of State. Um, the officers of the US Foreign Service work primarily overseas, um, and [00:04:00] we’re stationed at more than 270 locations around the world.

So the, the US government’s widely represented around the world with, um, embassies and consulates, and the US Foreign Service is made up of about 13,000 foreign service officers. Um, there’s about 11,000 civil service officers- Wow … and, um, 45,000 local nationals. These are, um, individuals in each location which work for the US government, but they’re, you know, from that specific country.

Scott : Sure.

JJ: So like here in Kenya, we have a large number of people which they p- help provide us the proper context so that we can carry out the US mission, the US diploma- diplomatic mission abroad.

Scott : Well, and it just seems that the, uh, the opportunity to be able to interact with local agencies would have a lot of…

It would support your efforts, I would think- Yeah … in a lot of ways.

JJ: Yeah, and, and, and I’ll tell you that in every place that I’ve worked at, it’s just been really positive the relationships I’ve [00:05:00] developed with, you know, not only at the official level, but also with, you know, just your everyday person- Yeah, sure

that you’re gonna interact with. Here in Kenya it’s been great. Um-

Scott : No, Kenyan people are wonderful. Yeah, yeah. Truly, truly wonderful people.

JJ: Yeah, some of the most friendly people I think I’ve, like, literally met in my life.

Scott : Yeah. And, and they, they seem to be genuinely interested in travel too- Mm-hmm … which I haven’t found in all of the African countries.

Usually when you say you’ve driven from Cape Town to wherever-

JJ: Mm-hmm …

Scott : they, it, they don’t e- they don’t have, know how to relate to that. Whereas Kenyans seem to be very interested in, “Oh, you, so did you go through Mozambique? And did you go-” Mm-hmm. They really have a good understanding of Africa.

JJ: Yeah.

Scott : And I, and I think that that’s because Kenya, especially Nairobi, is such an international hub.

JJ: Mm-hmm.

Scott : You have the UN has a big presence here. Mm. I mean, the US Embassy is like a college campus. It’s huge. Yeah. It’s huge. So, yeah.

JJ: Yeah, a lot of, uh, a lot of people in Nairobi come from different parts of Kenya.

Scott : Sure.

JJ: Um, and [00:06:00] then if you even get out to Mombasa, I mean, that is one of the oldest port cities in the world.

Scott : Yeah.

JJ: And so it’s, you know, see a lot of people from all over the place. And, uh, they are pretty curious if you say you’ve been to parts of the country and especially if it’s a part that they’re from.

Scott : Yeah.

JJ: Uh, it just really gets them excited.

Scott : Yeah, they can really relate to it for sure. So let’s talk about, try to tie it back into your own experience as an overlander, because that was one of the ways that we were able to connect is your passion for overland travel, and you identified, uh, that we were gonna be driving through Africa and you reached out.

But tell me what you love about overland travel, and how has your job helped you kind of become even a better overland traveler?

JJ: Yeah. Um, you know, for me it’s about just discovering new places, and, um, as a, you know, as a child, um, you know, growing up I would always look at, you know, maps [00:07:00] for example- Sure

and see these faraway places. Um, and, uh, I remember getting one of those country books about Egypt and seeing the pyramids and thinking, “I wanna go here one day.” Um, but you know, I didn’t have the means as a kid and, um, we didn’t do a lot of travel growing up. Occasional, some trips, you know, here and there.

So, um, later of course when I, uh, got the job, um, and, and started working as a, as a special agent with the Diplomatic Security Service, uh, the, one of the first trips I did was to Egypt. And so- Wow.

Scott : How cool was that? Comes full

JJ: circle. Yeah. Yeah. Wow. And so, um, I’m there, uh, you know, riding a cam- well, a typical ride.

Sure. I’m riding the camel out to the pyramids- … and, uh, and then I’m thinking, you know- But you gotta do it. Yeah. I m- to me it was amazing to finally, you know, to do that, and I knew I was in the right place. Um, and you know, some of the skills I had, uh, gained, uh, from, you know, previous [00:08:00] travels, um, speaking, speaking Spanish and living abroad, I was actually able to use those on the job.

Scott : Yeah.

JJ: Um, the way that the work has helped kind of- Uh, helped me be a better overlander is that when we do, uh, you know, like a protection mission where we’re providing security for, um, some of our personnel or someone that’s visiting that’s high-ranking, um, we will, uh, need to do a lot of preparation. So things like what you have in the vehicle, how heavy the vehicle is, um, your gear, your communications, all those things are super key to make sure that the whole group is, is safe.

And,

Scott : um- Oh, so navigation.

JJ: Yeah.

Scott : Like primary, secondary means of navigation. Exactly. Couple different routes.

JJ: Yeah. Yeah.

Scott : Probably makes you even better as an overlander- Yeah … ’cause you’re thinking about is this the only way in and out of here?

JJ: Correct. You know, even more so, like we have the technology to, to, you know, map out where we’re going, but [00:09:00] one, you know, piece of, if you say technology that is key, that is the most reliable, is a person that knows where they’re going.

Yeah. So, um-

Scott : The power of local

JJ: knowledge. Ex- exactly. Um, so we have, you know, local individuals that can help guide us. We’re supposed to know, but we also have local individuals that can help guide us to, uh, the specific locations. They know exactly what it’s looking like. They know what wrong looks like if something is kind of off.

Sure. Um, they know if there’s been recent rains. Um, so right here in Kenya right now, as you see, there’s been a lot of rain. It’s been a lot of rain. And so we’ve even had to, you know, we have to continually adjust. Has there been rain in the area? Should we go another way? Those are all part of the com- the, um, equation.

Scott : I remember when I was trying to get through Tegucigalpa in Honduras, and y- you know, the city had a reputation even when I was going through there. And I thought, “You know, my best bet is to hire a guy- Mm-hmm … a, a taxi driver And tell him, you know, “Here’s, here’s 10 bucks and you’re gonna get 40 when we get [00:10:00] to the other side of the city.”

JJ: Yeah, yeah.

Scott : And he was vested-

JJ: Yeah. …

Scott : in our success, 100%.

JJ: Yeah.

Scott : And we were, we were able to follow him and he knew right… And then we told him, “Hey, we need to go to a grocery store.” He knew the exact grocery store to go to. Yeah. And we were able to follow him all the way through the city, and we made his day, and he definitely made our day.

Yeah. So locals for sure.

JJ: We, we had, I had a similar, uh, situation when I was going through, uh, through Jordan, and a taxi driver and, um, and I wanted to… I’d only had a very short time in the city, and I wanted to go to Petra and go to some of the other sites, and this guy took me everywhere. And, um, he lived in the U- US before.

Oh, wow. Um, uh- So good English and everything. And, and, and ironically he also had been part of the Jordanian, like the national judo team. So he was like backed up that security for me. Uh, but he took me everywhere I needed to go, and he had that local knowledge. So- Yeah … I wouldn’t have been able to do it as quickly as I wanted to without having someone like [00:11:00] that.

Scott : And the context that he could provide as a citizen of the country. Yep. And his own passion for those places. So one of the things that I’ve, I’ve, I’ve s- I see it in your face and when we get a chance to talk is the, how much you enjoy- these experiences with your family, how can you also share, um, with people that are getting ready to travel with their kids?

Maybe they’re worried about traveling with their kids around the world. How c- how can you relate some advice back to the overlanders around traveling with your family?

JJ: Um, for, for my family, um, you know, the decision to live abroad, right, it was a family decision.

Scott : Mm.

JJ: I joined the, uh… I’d been with, uh, Diplomatic Security and with the State Department for approximately 19 years.

Mm. And so, um, the way it works with us is every two to three years we have to move from location to location, and, um, there’s a process to that. And, um, I [00:12:00] definitely make the family part of the process. Sure. So we do a lot of research on, you know, what country we’re maybe looking at. Um, and then when the time comes to move, you know, we’re, we’re lucky that we have the, like, logistical support of the US government to help us move from place to place.

Um, but once we make it, we go, we go all in. And, um, I invest everyone in the process. Um, if we’re gonna do a trip, I try to encourage, you know, my, my, my wife and my kids to, to research a little bit. Um, it-

Scott : And maybe do they get a chance to kind of say, “This is something I’d like to see,” or-

JJ: Yeah.

Scott : Wow, cool.

JJ: Yeah.

They, they, um, they definitely have their input. Um, like, we’re getting ready to do a trip soon, and we’ve tasked them to, to do some research on like- … what, what, what’s the top place that you wanna go to- Sure … and if we can make it work. Because if you’re just dragging the kids around and just making them a- as, you know, maybe go to a lot of museums, there’s nothing wrong with museums, they’re great, um, but I can [00:13:00] only take so many museums, right?

Yeah. So there might be a- And they can take

Scott : maybe even less. Yeah.

JJ: So, you know, we did a trip to South Africa and, um, we saw some, we went to m- some museums, but, uh, we also did, uh, quite a bit of surfing with my kids and, um, made them, you know, not made them, they wanted to do the lessons. But, uh, at the end of our time there, they, they just really, they loved going to Cape Town and South Africa.

Yeah. That was a positive experience. Oh, it’s

Scott : so beautiful down there.

JJ: Yeah. Um, but you know one thing is when, uh, with, with my job, um, we, we, when we go to a country, we’re there for several years, and so it’s, it’s also important to impress upon, um, uh, upon the others that they’re also representing not only themselves and their family, but also the United States if you go in the official capacity.

So I try to impress upon my, uh, my children that they’re almost like mini diplomats- Sure … and that they need to, you know, behave in a certain way- Yeah … that’s, you know, that, that represents themself in a po- positive light. Um, it’s been a overall great [00:14:00] experience because- We’ve been able to expose them to all different types of cultures and, um, and environments, and they’re able to see things firsthand that they may have read about, uh, in books.

Um, I, I’ll say that from the parent perspective, it looks sometimes like they don’t always totally, totally appreciate it, you know? Sure. Um, it… But I, I’ve come to see that they actually really do, you know? Because then they’re referring to something later in life that, uh, when they’re researching a project and they, “Oh, actually, I went to that location,” or, “I was nearby.”

So that’s been actually really, really great.

Scott : And they become like these, uh, mini global citizens. Yeah. They’ve been so exposed to different viewpoints, different religions, different languages, uh, people that look different from them, and that just becomes a new normal for them. That’s gotta be positive.

JJ: Yeah. I, it, it’s… They also are able to dismantle these different stereotypes- Yeah … that may be out there. [00:15:00] So living specifically in Africa, I mean, they’ve just been exposed to all the different cultures, you know, here and in Kenya and, um, in different parts of Africa. Uh, one of the big benefits of being in some remote locations is you have access to other countries that are nearby.

Scott : Yeah.

JJ: And, uh, and, you know, if you would’ve asked me, you know, how many years back if I imagined that I would be here at this time, I would’ve said there’s no way. Um, so that- it’s- that for us is really huge and, um, I hope that it pays dividends down the road. I think it will.

Scott : Yeah. Yeah. I suspect. Well, it probably in some ways, like your- the mission that you did to Colombia changed you in so many ways, I suspect, so.

JJ: Yeah. I, I think also, you know, a lot of families, uh, might be concerned about, you know, do they… The location they’re looking at moving to, like, do they have the things that they were comfortable with back home? And, you know, I’m here to say that in, you know, most of the things that [00:16:00] you can enjoy back in the United States, if we’re talking about the United States- Mm-hmm

or whatever country, they probably have something the same or equivalent in X, Y, Z country.

Scott : Yeah. You and I just had birria tacos tonight- … and they were super good. They were super good.

JJ: Yeah. No, I mean, I’m, I’m thinking about, uh- You know, uh, I think, uh, you know, we took our daughter to, uh, the Nutcracker in San Diego.

Scott : Yeah.

JJ: We also took her to the Nutcracker in Tijuana, Mexico, and we also have taken her to the Nutcracker here in Nairobi, so.

Scott : That’s awesome.

JJ: Yeah. There’s a ballet company in every, you know, in all these- Yeah … locations, so.

Scott : How cool is that?

JJ: Yeah.

Scott : Oh, that’s amazing. So to get a little bit more granular, maybe a little more, um, you know, advice based around all of your experience- What are some of the foundational things that overlanders need to be thinking about when they start to do their first international trip?

So for, for those that are listening, we’re [00:17:00] trying to frame this in the context of you’ve traveled in the United States, you’ve e- you’ve explored, you’ve gone, um, through Utah or you’ve gone through Washington State or Idaho or whatever, and now You’d like to maybe go and explore Baja California. So we’re, we’re trying to frame it around the idea of this is I’d love to go do an international trip and I’m thinking about doing my first international trip.

So JJ, what would be some pieces of advice that you would give to those people that are just getting ready to go?

JJ: So first of all, I’m a security guy, right? Sure. So I’m always gonna push being, being safe and, um, there are, there- all the information is out there to help you and, and you, you are gonna have to do some homework to make sure that, you know, you’re doing it correctly.

Um, I would always direct everyone to the State Department website that manages travel because there’s a lot of information in there that can help you [00:18:00] research, you know, requirements for passports and documents- Mm-hmm … um, things you should look out for on the security side. Um, uh, there… all that work has been done for you already and you just have to spend some time to go through there and there’s…

it’s very country specific. Mm-hmm. So the, you know, the website is, it’s just travel.state.gov and I know that, you know, a lot of travelers have, have looked at this site. Um, there’s, there, the information there is, is very current and there’s a, a number of, uh, professionals that work at the US embassies and consulates that make sure that, uh, it is up to date.

Um, our biggest priority is the safety of American citizens abroad. We wanna make sure they’re doing it safely and they have all the information and that it’s a positive experience. Um, if you look in there, there is something called, uh, STEP and I know y- you’re familiar with STEP. Um, it’s the Smart Traveler Enrollment Program.

What, [00:19:00] what that is, it’s a system where you can register that you’re going to a specific country and you will receive any relevant information that has to do with, you know, safety and security when you’re traveling. Um- And

Scott : you can get it by email. Yep. I believe you can get it by text message.

JJ: Yep. Um, that, that system, um, will provide you even, uh, with information that’s emerging.

So let’s say you’re in a country and all of a sudden there’s a natural disaster. So I lived in Nicaragua, uh, f- uh, for a couple of years and earthquakes was a thing that could happen. Uh, if you are enrolled in STEP, um, that information’s gonna get pumped out to you and the information is basically… it’s, it’s developed from multiple sources.

Any safety and security information is developed from, uh- The US Embassy, the security personnel like myself, um, our, our consular section, um, our, [00:20:00] our local connections to the government, um, local media, that all will feed into that system, and it will make sure that you’re properly informed with current, up-to-date information.

Scott : And as I recall, when you go in to sign up, you do provide some personal information. You also provide some itinerary based information, so- Yeah … which makes sense because if there was to be something that happened You then would at least have an idea where this person might be.

JJ: Yeah. A- a- that’s correct, and I, I recall, uh, you know, when I was in one country and there was a natural disaster, um, I believe it was Mexico, right?

And it hit, uh, Baja, California, and individuals that were enrolled in that, um, the consulate had the ability to attempt to reach out to those people. It was basically a list of individuals that- Mm-hmm … they could try to assist. Um, and I’ll tell you that, you know, our consular officers were very dedicated to try to find those individuals.

Um, and, and so [00:21:00] that, that is correct, right? That’s the best way that you can, uh, inform the US government that you’re in a country, uh, in the event that something goes wrong.

Scott : Yeah.

JJ: Um, some, some other things that I think are key to have is, you know, on, in, within that travel.state.gov, specific to the country, you can gather a number of relevant phone numbers- Mm

that could help you.

Scott : I remember that.

JJ: Yeah, yeah.

Scott : Emergency contact numbers, yeah.

JJ: And I, and I always suggest to have, you know, some sort of book that has all the relevant documents and copies, but also to have a digital backup, ’cause we’re in a digital world now, and, uh, that’s a good way to have something just available in case you need it and your, your stuff gets damaged or lost.

Scott : Yeah, I typically will have a copy of it on my phone, like, where a hard copy or a digital copy is on the phone, but then I’ll also have another whole set up in the cloud.

JJ: Yeah.

Scott : That way if you just, if you have to… Because it, let’s say you lose a passport, like, that’s something that does happen-

JJ: Mm-hmm …

Scott : to [00:22:00] people.

Like, what… If someone’s in a country and they lose a passport, what should they do? What would be the next step that they should do?

JJ: So, um, the, the section that can assist you is it’s part of the consular section at the US Embassy, um, or the, or the, uh, consulate, and it’s called American Citizen Services, and there’s equivalent with other countries too.

Sure. Like, there’s a Canadian-

Scott : Yeah …

JJ: services and, um, and their role is to help, you know, Americans that get in these situations. Um, you would wanna contact them. Typically, you email them, and I know sometimes people don’t wanna just email, they wanna call someone on the- Sure … on the phone. Um, but they have…

They’re monitoring that, that email, uh, all the time, and they will set you up with an appointment. They’ll get you to come in, and they’re able to get you an emergency document that can help get you out of the country.

Scott : Sure.

JJ: And you usually have to fly out. Yeah. And the airlines won’t let you fly unless you have an actual document.

Sure. So they can help you get set up with, uh, with, uh, another passport, an [00:23:00] emergency passport. Sure. And then you can get back and get a full validity passport down the road.

Scott : Yeah, but those are the kinds of things that happen to people, or, you know, another one that comes to mind is a, a medical emergency.

JJ: Mm-hmm.

Scott : You know, just, you know, like, if you’re- If you’re having an emergency while you’re in a country, it’s, it’s a good idea to let the consulate know. If it’s a s- life-threatening emergency, it’s a good idea to let them know that something’s happening.

JJ: Yeah. There are, our officers that work in American Citizen Services, they, they, they do wanna be able to assist.

Yeah. And, um, they’ll have things like, uh, even lists of, of hospitals that are hospitals that other Americans have gone to. Um, what happens is if there’s, uh, you know, bad situations or practices, um, they’re made aware of those things. Um, because the consular, the consular section, you have to understand that they’re viewing things from the kind of the wide lens, um, issues that are happening to Americans throughout the country- [00:24:00] Sure

all the time. So you as an individual traveler may have had a really positive experience in a country and, and never had an issue. Um, at the same time, the American Citizen Services and the consular section may ha- may know about things that have happened countrywide and that kind of goes into those notices as well.

Scott : Sure.

JJ: They wanna make sure that, um, Americans are advised of, you know, everything that could happen in a country and… ‘Cause that’s important to know. You know, more information, uh, is the best for you as a traveler to just be prepared in case.

Scott : And I think that’s when it’s so important to… ‘Cause you could look at a country, like even some of the ones that I’ve traveled through where it may be a level three-

JJ: Mm-hmm

Scott : threat and it’s good to keep it in the context of oftentimes that means that there are specific areas that are at that level, and it may not be everywhere. Uh, but it’s really important to dig into… ‘Cause I’ll- I’ve found that it’ll even be specific [00:25:00] of, of we, we’re not recommending people travel to this region.

JJ: Mm-hmm.

Scott : And that’s really helpful to kind of know what to avoid.

JJ: Yeah. Yeah. So re- uh, you know, remember that the information is feeding in and, and so the interest of the, the, the US government is to make sure everyone is informed as much as possible. When an area is, is put down as being, you know, it’s area to avoid, what it, what essentially it’s saying is that the US government doesn’t typically go in there unless they have special security resources.

Mm. You know? Sometimes it’s necessary to go into areas for different reasons, but they wanna make sure that, you know, the- the large group of citizens are aware that, hey, there could potentially, something could potentially happen to you if you’re in this area, so we wanna make sure you’re aware. Yeah. Um, any time the US government changes their security posture, any time they kind of go on, on high alert, by law they must [00:26:00] notify all Americans that they’re doing that.

Mm-hmm. And I think that’s important to, to understand from the overlanding perspective, um, because I understand it, right? From the, from the traveler. They might see and, uh, read the notices and it looks like they shouldn’t travel anywhere. Yeah. Right? What it is is really, is the US government wants to say, “Hey, there’s the potential for things to happen- Mm

in some of these, these places.” And sometimes those threats are, you know, specific to different groups. Yeah. Right? And that also is good to understand. Um, the… We understand, right, that the, the US government, uh, we’re a, an attractive target- Yeah … to bad actors, whereas maybe just a, you know, one person traveling by themselves may not be the most attractive target.

But again, remember that if we, uh, have to make a change to our posture, we need to notify everyone- Sure … that we’ve made a change to our posture. So I think that’s the, the, the key piece to, to understand.

Scott : Yeah, to filter it through that perspective, that way… But the [00:27:00] k- I believe that the key is to be informed.

Um, because I, I’ve never had the feeling when I, when I look on the website that it’s saying, “Don’t go anywhere.” Mm-hmm. It just means, “Be aware of these things.”

JJ: Yeah.

Scott : Um, and as the threat level changes, um, you may wanna change how you travel, which could include traveling in a convoy.

JJ: Mm-hmm.

Scott : Making sure that you’re not traveling at night, uh, making sure you’re not traveling into the areas that they’re suggesting that you do otherwise.

I can say from personal experiences, the times that I have gone into areas that- was suggested otherwise uh, something interesting usually happened.

JJ: Mm.

Scott : Um, and sometimes it is pretty uncomfortable. So, um, it, I have found it to be pretty accurate, so…

JJ: That’s good to know, yeah.

Scott : Yeah, absolutely. So when you think about overlanders going into a new country, what are some of the behaviors or, [00:28:00] or I guess procedures or, or traveling, methods of travel that you suggest people avoid?

Um, you know, just like these are a couple things not to do.

JJ: I, I think it’s, uh, it’s, it’s mostly personality driven, right? Um, when you go into a, a new place, uh, you wanna show respect. You wanna be respectful. And, um, you know, we, uh, we often travel from the lens or through the lens or the perspective of us as, you know, coming from whatever country we’re coming from, and we wanna apply it in that new environment.

And, you know, sometimes that isn’t the best way to do it. Um, may be best to just kinda sit back and do a lot of observation. But any sorta confrontation, right? You wanna avoid sort of a confrontation. I think a lot about, like, driving around, right? And, um, uh, as we were discussing earlier, driving is, is like a language, right?

You need to learn how driving occurs in that country, and it can change as [00:29:00] soon as you cross the border from one place to the next. Mm-hmm. Um, and, and so you wanna avoid any sort of issue that leads you down the road of getting in a confrontation. It’s better just to try to, you know, try to understand, sit back, and try to observe.

Um, we, uh, we often, you know, are a little loud when we go into new countries. Sure. Um, and I, I notice this from sitting back and looking how others are looking at, you know, foreigners. So you’re drawing more attention to yourself. Sure. You’re, you’re usually dressed a little different, or you might have a different, uh, vehicle.

But then you’re drawing even more attention to yourself because you’re being maybe a little too loud. So just, you know, that’s something to just kinda keep an eye out for. Yeah.

Scott : Yeah. And some countries are very loud.

JJ: Yeah, exactly.

Scott : It’s, but many of them are not.

JJ: So if it’s, they’re loud, then join in I guess I’d say.

Scott : If you’re in Italy, just go for it, essentially.

JJ: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, but being respectful, uh, you know, is, is important, and you wanna avoid any situation. You need to do your research. You wanna avoid any situation [00:30:00] where you’re technically breaking the law. So I know sometimes, uh, maybe the law says one thing, like when you’re driving around, but everyone’s breaking it.

The problem is that the moment you break the law, you’re opening yourself up to a situation where someone can kinda go after you or, you know, you just wanna basically follow the laws as much as possible. Um, and, and not-

Scott : It’s tempting to speed because everybody else is speeding, but- In my experience, they’re gonna let six locals go by- Mm-hmm

and they see that bright green overland vehicle coming at ’em, they’re gonna-

JJ: Yeah,

Scott : yeah … and you’re doing 110 in an 80, they’re gonna pull you over.

JJ: So you’re making yourself a, you know, you’re opening yourself up to potentially running into an issue- Sure … I think if, if you’re, if you’re maybe breaking the law.

So, and, and I think the, the one other thing is, you know, we, we always wanna watch, you know, our entitlement, right? Wherever you come from, um, you know, it’s, it’s something that you have to constantly check with yourself. [00:31:00] Um, because of maybe your status or money or what you’re driving, um, we have to always be mindful that we’re, we, that we need to understand that things are maybe being done in a certain country for a certain reason, and it works for them.

Scott : Mm-hmm.

JJ: Um, and we don’t need to try to transplant, you know, what we know to be the way things, you know, should be to that new environment. So I think it’s best to just, again, just always check that entitlement, make sure that we’re good. You know, that’s viewed negatively, I think, in many places around the world.

I’m talking universally.

Scott : Yes.

JJ: Um, try to, you know, try to say hi, try to kind of, uh, link up with that culture the best way you can.

Scott : Learn a couple, couple, you know, pieces of the language. Tell ’em thank you. Tell ’em hello in their own language and a smile. Um, and, you know, look ’em, uh, don’t put, don’t have your expensive sunglasses on if you can avoid it.

Yep. Look ’em in the eyes. Yep. Um, and especially when you’re, when you’re coming up to traffic [00:32:00] stops and stuff like that, get those aviators off and… ’cause they may want ’em. That’s the problem. You may not leave the traffic- Yeah, yeah … stop with those aviators if you’re not careful, so.

JJ: You know, that, that, um, you know, if you get stopped, right, that officer, uh, and, and I always try to relate the best way I can, right?

Sure. I’m a, I’m a poli- I’m technically a, I’m a federal officer as well. Sure. And, uh, I try to find common ground the best way I can. Um, that person, for many reasons, could not be having a good day. Um, they’ve been, had a negative experience in the past. Uh, if you’re able to deconstruct, like, those barriers by just saying hi and asking them their name or asking them how their day’s been going- Yeah

maybe that’s gonna help you go your, you know, your way.

Scott : Oh, I, I couldn’t agree more. I mean, even when I was in, I was an officer at Gila Bend Auxiliary Field in Arizona. Yep. You know where that’s at? Yep, I

JJ: know exactly where

Scott : it’s at. And I just remember how that felt, you know, when you pull somebody over and they are pissed- Yeah

at [00:33:00] you even though they were doing something wrong.

JJ: Yeah.

Scott : So it’s important to remember that. Yeah, for sure. Well, those are some really, really good insights- What are, um, what mistakes do you find travelers make bringing stuff into countries? One of the things that I’m aware of is, is bring- making sure that the prescription drug that you’re on in the United States is actually allowable.

JJ: Yeah.

Scott : And I’m fortunate. I, I mean, I take a cholesterol medication, so I don’t bring anything else with me. But there, in the United States, a wide range of pharmaceuticals can be, can be, uh, prescribed, and they may not be allowed, or they may be controlled- Yeah … substances in the country that you’re visiting.

JJ: Yeah, I know growing up on the border that, you know, something that it’s allowed in Mexico, there’s certain ways to bring that into the United States, right? It might, they might need a doctor’s prescription. Sure. Um, and I learned that early on, right? When you’d have to ask the questions to be sure. Um, anything [00:34:00] that could, you know- That could, could create questions about you, I think are good to, to know to avoid.

So I know, you know, again, I’m a security guy, so it’s, you know, you… Some people get in, in trouble for having certain lengths of knives- Sure … for example. So if, you know, you should research what’s the actual law and, and maybe you print it out, so if you get stopped, then that officer may not understand the Illinois law.

Yeah. That, that’s maybe one thing to have.

Scott : You could show due diligence, right?

JJ: Yeah.

Scott : I mean, Australia’s that way.

JJ: Yep.

Scott : I mean, just certain fold- any kind of mechanical assist of a fold… I mean, something that you and I could carry around in- Yeah … Arizona or Utah or whatever is no big deal. But if you have something that is mechanically assisted or you can open up one-handed oftentimes are not legal.

Yep. Um, it- they usually require it to be, uh, minimal length and require sometimes two hands to open.

JJ: Mm-hmm.

Scott : You know?

JJ: Um, a- of course, you touched on the drugs, right? Obviously illegal [00:35:00] drugs would be a bad thing to- Yeah.

Scott : Super bad idea …

JJ: to have on you. Um, but people make mistakes all the time, so it’s not, um, it’s not uncommon to, to hear about someone getting hung up for having drugs.

Um, or for example, a drug may be legal in the state in which you came from in, in the United States, but it’s not legal technically in, like, Mexico- Sure … for example. That’s something to watch out for. Um, in some countries, uh, things that are offensive could, could create issues for you. Yeah. So offensive type material- Sure

could be technically illegal in that country, so you don’t wanna bring something that can cause that problem for you as well. Um, and then in, in depending on some countries, some advanced electronic equipment- Yeah … could be viewed in the, in the negative way. Um, and they could think, you know, you’re have other objectives, um, that could hang you up- Yeah

um, and create issues for you as well. So, um, you should definitely know what equipment you have with you [00:36:00] and be able to explain what it is and show how it works. Um, that could help, you know, eliminate issues.

Scott : And making sure if it does require a permit that you’ve gone through that process.

JJ: Yeah.

Scott : Um, you can’t have a sat phone in Sudan.

You can’t have a sat phone in Chad. You can’t… I mean, you can. I can’t. But, um, there’s, there are places where you’re not- Yeah … allowed to have those things, so making sure that- You’ve got some insights around it

JJ: W- one I know that has hung up some people is drones, for example. Yeah. So you should know the rules about bringing drones into a certain country.

Scott : Yeah.

JJ: There may be, you know, restricted fly areas or, um, uh, you, maybe you could, period, can’t bring them in the country. Yeah. And if you’re doing, you know, international travel, multiple stops, uh, you need to check including transit countries.

Scott : Yeah. ‘

JJ: Cause that transit country could, you know, you could get hung up in that transit country even though your final destination is another country.

So, you know, do your research of course and,

Scott : and be aware. Totally happened to me. Yeah. We talked about that [00:37:00] the other day. Yeah. When I, I went from Europe into Morocco on my way to Australia, and I had a drone with me.

JJ: Yeah.

Scott : And they found it in Morocco- … and it was amazing, but the comandante guy, I mean, he, he took the drone, he says, “When you come back through the airport, I’ll have it in my office.”

And believe it or not, he did. Like, he gave me the drone back, so. Yeah. But that usually does not happen that way. I, I feel like I was very fortunate.

JJ: Yeah.

Scott : So yeah, you really wanna do your research. I mean, and another thing too is even, um, the things that you’re wearing. So being mindful of is a watch that you’re wearing gonna signal something to someone that makes you more of a target?

Um, if you’re wearing, you know, even guys wearing shorts in certain countries is considered disrespectful. Mm-hmm. It’s just purely disrespectful, and they may view that that way. Um, they’re not likely gonna beat you up, but they may treat you differently because they know- Yeah … that you’re, you’re going out of your way to say, [00:38:00] “I don’t, I don’t agree with your culture, and I’m gonna do whatever I want.”

So.

JJ: Or, or people in your party, and then if you’re the guy and you’re trying to, you know, protect, um, the other person with you- Yeah … or y- you could put your, end up putting yourself in a situation that you didn’t anticipate. Right. And that you could have avoided by just, you know, maybe, maybe dressing a little bit different.

Scott : Sure.

JJ: Um, or a little more conservatively, uh, could help. There’s definitely places around the world where it’s, it’s polar opposite, right? Sure. It goes, it, it swings a lot. Of course. So yeah.

Scott : Yeah, of course. But it’s good to be mindful of that when you go into those places.

So what are some things, just to flip the question, what are some things that you do recommend people bring or, or think about bringing that can help them as travelers?

JJ: So I’m really big on, on communication. So the way that we do a lot of our planning is, uh, we have basically four tiers of communication.[00:39:00]

We have a primary, an alternate, a contingency, and an emergency.

Scott : Sure.

JJ: So that’s gonna be, you know, that’s the way you call for help, that’s the way that, um, you can, you know, get resources that you don’t have. So we really… I really recommend that when you’re doing your travel, you plan for, you know, that primary may be just, like, a cellphone- Sure

or, like, a radio. Your alternate may be internet-based communication through the different platforms. Um, your, your contingency or your emergency could be a sat phone or maybe, like, an InReach system that- Yeah … has two-way communication. Mm-hmm. So, um, make sure that you have that squared away, um, in addition to, you know, your mechanical and your medical.

So I know we always, you know, we always talk about, um, you know, having… You know, you can only take so much with you, right? Because you’re weighing down the vehicle. Um, but, you know, if you’re going to very remote locations, you may have medical equipment you bring with you, like a full kit, and you may [00:40:00] not be a person that’s professionally trained as a medic, but you may be in locations where there’s trained professionals in the area, but they just don’t have the resources.

Um, so traveling around here in Kenya, for example, there’s a lot of vehicle bays in remote locations as you’re traveling. I, um, I don’t know that there’s all the tools necessary all the time in that specific vehicle bay, but if I have the tools with me, or some key tools, um, I know that that space is available to potentially use, or there may be a Land Rover mechanic- Yeah, yeah.

that’s, that’s nearby- Exactly … um, that could help me do the work. So I think, you know, we, we don’t always need to think from terms of I’m gonna bring everything, but it’s stuff that I know how to use. Well, if you have something that’s, like a larger kit-

Scott : Sure …

JJ: right, maybe there’s someone nearby that can actually help you do the work or can help get you on the road again.

Scott : And having a couple spares with you if you know that- Mm-hmm … there are common failure points. Uh, bringing along, um, syringes and [00:41:00] other, uh, medical devices that can be used if you go into a clinic that they- Mm-hmm … may not have available. Mm-hmm. Or at least you can make sure that they’re using something that kind of meets your expectations.

Yeah, those are certainly things to consider. Yeah, having that stuff with you is important. And the communication, I find, gives not only- the traveler a lot of comfort, but it gives your family back home a lot of comfort. So, um, being, asking your family back home, like ask your mom or dad, like, “How would you like for me to communicate with you- Mm-hmm

while I’m in the middle of, you know, South America?” Yeah. And they may, they may surprise you. They may be like, “Have a great time.” “Call me when you get back.” Or they may be, “You know, it would feel really good to me to know once every other day how you’re doing.”

JJ: Yeah.

Scott : Um, and that’s where something like an inReach can really make a difference.

JJ: I, I think also, i- uh, you can plan for varying environments. So we have vast, you know, differences of elevation here in Kenya- Yeah, it’s surprising … or [00:42:00] in different places I’ve been to, where you could be at, you could literally be at sea level one day and you could be at, I mean, Kilimanjaro, right? Yeah, sure.

At 20,000 feet. Yeah. Um, or I’ve taken my truck up to parts that were 11,500 feet- Yeah … and, uh, it can get really cold. That’s right. Um, or as you’ve seen in the last couple days, the rain will come and go, on and off. So, um, eh, planning for all the seasons, uh, you know, or the best you can, and having that gear, you know, there available and, and ready for you.

Um, I have a good system where I use Pelican cases in the back of the Defender, and I have a lot of things just that are always there-

Scott : Yeah …

JJ: in case. You know, it’s, it’s airtight, it’s waterproof. I can use that as a, a bench to sit on or a s- uh, something to step up on, things like that. Yeah.

Scott : It’s always a good idea to make sure the cases in your Defender are watertight.

JJ: Yep. From my, from my

Scott : experience.

JJ: Yeah.

Scott : Okay. So let’s, let’s talk a little bit around, we did talk a little bit about [00:43:00] documentation, but, um, what are some pieces of advice around applying for visas? What documentation should people make sure that they have with them when they cross a border? Um, you know, there’s, there’s things that generally come to mind, like making sure you have a, a passport and your, and copies of your passport and photographs of your passport.

But also if you, if you’ve, for example, went through Global Entry and you have a Global Entry ID- Mm-hmm … that’s a good thing to bring along. Yeah. It’s an alternate ID. Um, having not only your driver’s license, but an international driver’s license that you can hand to officials in the countries that you’re in.

A lot of times people forget to bring their yellow fever

JJ: card. Yeah. Yeah, ’cause the, yes, it changes by- By country and, um, from experience, uh, the changes can go into effect immediately. Yeah. You could be mid-travel and, um, all of a sudden there is a, a change in policy and they don’t wanna allow you on the plane.

Yeah. [00:44:00] Um, you know, luckily sometimes you can get those vaccinations when you’re traveling if you had to. But, um, you, you wanna always check the validity of your passport, right? Yeah. ‘Cause I’ve seen individuals get hung up, um, mid-transit, um, because, you know, one country allowed, um, eh, you know, within a six-month validity left on your passport and others did not.

So you, you really wanna make sure that you have more than six months from, from the conclusion of your travel, right? And

Scott : also the number of pages can vary by country.

JJ: Correct.

Scott : Yeah. You have to have a certain number of blank pages left in your passport.

JJ: I, I’ve seen people also get hung up on that. Yeah. Um, they were stuck in a country because the next country required certain number of blank pages.

Um, I, I, I will just refer back to that travel dot, travel state.state.gov website.

Scott : It’s got it all in there. It does, it’s got it

JJ: all in there. But it’ll list everything there. Um, and, and they’re saying it there ’cause they’ve dealt with cases of people getting stranded or, or needing assistance. Um, I [00:45:00] really recommend, you know, like we s- we talked about having copies of everything.

Um, if you get stopped by official you can always, um, hand a copy of that document or show a digital copy or something like that. Mm-hmm. Um, those are options. Um, and when it, when it comes to, uh, you know, passports and, and visas also, so a lot of people apply for, uh, visas to go to different places. Um, typically a country will have all the information on their pages as well.

So sometimes people get caught up in fraud schemes because- Yeah … they use fixers and, um, those individuals aren’t really acting in the best interest of the traveler.

Scott : Sure.

JJ: So it’s good to, um, it’s good to, to look what’s there and you can check on forums and other people who have recently traveled, although those can vary, right, what it says in there.

But the official pages are typically your best, uh, shot.

Scott : And a lot of those official pages are linked from the US travel advisory site. I found a lot of those vis- e- especially since there’s been such a [00:46:00] shift towards E-visa.

JJ: Yeah.

Scott : Which is a huge deal because you used to have to be able to s- you used to have to send your passport into Washington- Yeah

DC for a lot of these things. Yeah. Um, which can create all kinds of complications, so.

JJ: And I know some-

Scott : E-visa’s really helped …

JJ: I know that sometimes, uh, individuals have urgent travel or something comes up, and so there are ways to request, you know, an expedited appointment. Yeah. Um, and I know that people are looking at, you know, uh, at those requests, so that’s…

There, there are options, but it’s better practice if you can plan in advance well in ahead. Sure. Don’t, um, don’t just assume that you’ll be able to enter a country, uh, on, you know, with your, with your US passport or other passport. The agreements, uh, they vary by country, from country to country, and they change.

Scott : Yeah. I’ve seen them change mid-travel for sure.

So when people rock up to a [00:47:00] border, ’cause this is always, it’s funny to hear travelers talk about that. It’s probably the one thing that gives overlanders the most anxiety- Yeah … um, is, you know, either a dent in their vehicle or crossing an in- international border. Do you have any pieces of advice for people when they’re preparing to go to a border, at the border?

Um- You know, you’ve crossed, uh, thousands of border crossings I’m sure.

JJ: Yeah. Uh, and, and you know, I worked, uh… Well, when my family lived in Mexico, w- they, they crossed the border every day. Yeah. Um, and, um, for a couple of years I worked with the group at the border at, um, at, at San Ysidro. That’s the, the largest border, land border crossing in the world.

There’s 60,000 to 100,000 people that crossed every single day of that border. And, um, one thing I learned is that, you know, the officers working there, they’re, they’re really dedicated. Um, they’re, they’re trying to do the right thing, and there are [00:48:00] legitimate concerns- Yeah … about people crossing, um, the border, you know, not legally.

Um, what I’ll say is that when you’re a person that has- that you’re working in an environment where you see people cross all the time, after a while you develop a, um, just a, a sense. You can kinda tell when some- something is maybe just a little bit off. Um, and so if, if y- if you’re ever crossing and, and you run to an issue where you, you get referred for maybe a secondary, um, uh, sort of inspection, wherever it may be, not just the US but another location, um, you know, you should just consider that that officer may…

They may have just seen something that, that, you know, was maybe a little off, and they have to process people quickly. Yeah. Um, so that’s why they refer you over. Um, or sometimes there just may be s- you know, your name, for example- Sure … may, something may ping ’cause of your name, and that officer may- This

Scott : guy’s got two first names.

Scott Brady. Secondary, [00:49:00] secondary. Can’t be real.

JJ: You know, uh, they may not even be able to override that in the moment. Yeah. Um, and, and so… But you know, showing humanity towards that officer that’s doing their job, and, um, finding a way to, you know, just be personable- Yeah … uh, that goes a long way. Um, uh, I’ll say that you don’t wanna give any excuse, again, for, uh, to give them an issue, and, uh, y- you gotta know the rules with crossing.

So I think one time I tried to cross a pinata, I wasn’t even thinking about it, and there were certain rules with crossing a pinata ’cause again, obviously you could stuff stuff in there, and I-

Scott : Totally makes sense.

JJ: That’s crazy … it, it was kinda, it was kinda funny, but I, I wasn’t thinking about it because I brought, you know, this, this beautiful pinata.

I was gonna take it to a, a party, and it was… I- it was kinda funny. It was a bride and groom pinata. Yeah. So they looked… It was for some friends in San Diego. Sure. Uh, so the officer was like, “Um, I gotta r- refer you, uh, because we have to scan those [00:50:00] items.” And I was like, “Oh my gosh, I didn’t even think about it.”

Yeah. So, uh, I had the option of course of getting agitated or saying that I worked there at the border with the, with the group there, but no, I gotta let the officer do what they’re supposed to do. Sure. So, um, you know, I- the best way you can to appeal to them, and I’ll say as you’re doing international crossings- Having all your stuff in order, right, is the best way you can do.

Very organized. If you’re presenting everything in a way that makes it hard for people to, you know, find some sort of admin thing that you didn’t do, and it’s all there, then it’s, it, it just makes their job easier to just approve you and- Sure … and process you in.

Scott : Well, and then it just gives them some confidence that most likely the rest of you is in order.

JJ: Yeah.

Scott : You know, just, like, for example, not, not rocking up to a border in a T-shirt with six days of spilt milk on it. You know? Yeah. Just come, come… You don’t need to wear a suit, but just come being [00:51:00] professional and squared away. And, you know, it’s even surprising, you know, the, the number of times that I’ve gotten a more detailed inspection when the vehicle is just trashed- Mm-hmm

when it’s, like, dusty and muddy. It’s the same thing if you come up to the US border from Mexico and the vehicle is just… Be like, “What were you doing in the desert?”

JJ: Yeah, yeah. Absolutely. Uh, I, I think, i- in thinking also of dealing with the officers at the border, uh, you know, I think that that respect thing again- Yeah

is so key because, you know, you’re talking to a professional-

Scott : Sure …

JJ: in their country. And if you think if… You know, let’s say you’re in another country and you’re dealing with the, an officer at a border crossing. If you think, “Would I talk the same way to an officer entering the US or coming through, you know, security at the airport?”

If the answer is no, maybe you should change a little bit- For sure … that approach. And I think, I, [00:52:00] again, it’s hard for us sometimes. Like, we have to always constantly check ourselves to make sure that we’re presenting in the proper way.

Scott : And those, those border officials are people of influence. They are, they are individuals of power and influence, and they, it’s probably been very difficult for them to get that job- Mm-hmm

and they’re respected in their community. And, um, they’re used to being respected by the people who come to the border-

JJ: Yeah …

Scott : asking to enter their country.

JJ: They absolutely-

Scott : That’s basically what you’re doing. You’re asking them to let you in.

JJ: They absolutely have power and influence over you at that moment in time.

So … That’s

Scott : right.

JJ: Yeah, so you definitely wanna, uh, respect that.

Scott : Yeah, come into it with the right perspective. So, uh, because security is one of your specialties, um, do you have some, some advice for, for individuals traveling? Just some practical considerations around, um, security. What… Like a fun example was when you and I just went to dinner, normally I like to [00:53:00] sit facing the entrance.

JJ: Uh-huh.

Scott : But I’m like, “I’m not the guy- … that needs to be face- facing the entrance. It needs to be you.” Yeah, yeah. So I just put my back to the whole restaurant- … because I’m like-

JJ: Yeah …

Scott : I’m with JJ. He’s the guy who needs to be seeing what’s going on.

JJ: Um, I’m a big believer in that there’s a way to make security practices part of your normal routine, and it can be done in a way where you don’t think so much about it.

Scott : Sure.

JJ: So it’s not good to be paranoid and constantly thinking about, you know, the, the bad things that can happen. I mean, you need to be aware of the potential, uh, risks. But, um, I, you know, I always try to push. Like, if there’s things that you can make part of your routine that it could actually improve your, your safety and security.

So, like for me, a big one is, like driving at night, right? If I can avoid driving at night, I avoid driving at night because in certain, you know, places, uh, it not be- it may not be well lit. Um, maybe there’s, there’s more [00:54:00] accidents. There’s the inability of, of, uh, law enforce- enforcement personnel to get to you at nighttime, or the, the response may be slower.

So if you just don’t drive at night, then that will never be an issue for you.

Scott : I’d say it’s number one.

JJ: Yeah.

Scott : It really- Yeah … is number one for overlanders.

JJ: Um, vehicle speed. I know you’ve talked about vehicle speed in the past. I feel the same way and, uh, as, you know, you drive an older vehicle like a Defender, you have to actually watch your vehicle speed a lot.

Um, that, that also. Um, the, the conditions of where you may be- The, you may be in an environment where the roads themselves are not, you know, completely engineered for the, for the speeds that, you know, we may be used to driving.

Scott : Mm-hmm.

JJ: Um, in the United States they have a whole system, and you can drive actually very, very fast in some parts of the country.

Um, but, you know, you may be in a place where it doesn’t support that speed, and, [00:55:00] um, the vehicles around you may not be able to support, you know, that speed, be able to brake in time. Um, there may be different conditions that are, you know, regular in that area. Cattle-

Scott : Like gigantic car-eating potholes.

JJ: Yeah.

Big potholes, cattle crossing, giraffe crossings. I mean- That’s right … you name it, right?

Scott : No, it’s the truth. And then you also get the random speed bump that is not signed, has no paint on it.

JJ: Yeah.

Scott : And next thing you know, you and your Defender are airborne.

JJ: I’ve experienced that- Yeah … a couple of times, uh, for sure.

Um-

Scott : That’s why you gotta slow down. You just really do. I-

JJ: if, if- You just gotta slow down … if you’re s- if you’re slower and if you’re, again, if you have rules like you don’t touch the phone when you’re driving- Yeah … something like that, well, you’re already eliminating potential situations that could, you know, put you in danger.

And, and I always, uh, when I’m doing remote travel, I consider how far the nearest, uh, hospital is for me.

Scott : Sure.

JJ: So if the nearest hospital is actually a flight away or it’s, you know, more than six hours, [00:56:00] then I, I get– I think it’s important to monitor, um, how you’re driving. Um, you’ve done the drive down to Baja- Yeah

and there’s large sections in there where there’s no cell signal. Um, the nearest hospital is maybe back in, in Sonata maybe- Yeah … Tijuana, or it’s down in Cabo, and you’re literally days away drive from somewhere. So how can you get the help that you need if you’re so far away? So I think, you know, speed is definitely, uh, a very, very important piece.

Um, but-

Scott : And it’s something we can always control.

JJ: Yes. Yeah.

Scott : And, uh, and I think it’s the, you know, there’s the, the, the known knowns, there’s the known unknowns, and the one thing that we do know is that if we s- if we remove some of the speed from the equation, then every scenario that may come up will be better than if you were going faster.

JJ: Correct. And I always try to keep in mind who’s traveling with me too. So if I have family [00:57:00] with me, I-

Scott : Of course …

JJ: take it personal that I’m responsible for them, and I wouldn’t wanna put them at risk, uh, unnecessarily. Yeah. Right? Um, buddy system for me. I know that some travelers travel alone, and that’s fine, and people do it for different reasons.

Um, but if there’s an opportunity to bring someone along, I always try to make that part of the equation. Um, you have more than one eye looking out for things. It’s, um, you’re a group, and so that gives you a little more, a little more safety and security there as well. Um, communication check-ins. So if your normal procedure is that any time you depart or you leave or you have an automated system that does it for you, um, when something is not happening that way and it’s off, it’s gonna alert people that, like, something may be wrong.

Scott : Yeah.

JJ: So now you have other people that are looking out for your safety because your normal procedure is that you always check in. You know, you always call your mom or something when, when you, uh, you arrive to your destination. Right.

Scott : Exactly.

JJ: Um, I, [00:58:00] I think it’s wise too to not go in, as we say, into the blind when we’re going to a location.

Um, meaning it’s always smart to check, uh, local and social media on conditions. So, um, if there’s heavy rains, um, people are gonna be putting stuff up there. Yeah. And they’re gonna hashtag it to that location. And so you don’t wanna enter a place that is, you know, dealing with a situation. Um, it could be fire, natural disaster, or something, you know, maybe criminal.

Train derailment.

Scott : True. It just, yeah, it’s shocking- True … the stuff that can happen, and it normally does hit social media pretty quickly.

JJ: But a lot of people don’t check. They just kind of travel and go. And, um, checking social media, checking where, um, uh, your nearest, we talked already in the medical, but, um, nearest hospitals of where you’re staying.

If you j- if it’s just one of your proper, uh, planning procedures for your, for your travel, y- you’re, you’re building up your security in a way that many, I think, don’t [00:59:00] do. Yeah. Yeah. Um- I, I always go to, I, I research trusted locations. Um, so I’ll, I’ll look and, uh, if I have the ability to call someone that’s from that area to be, “Hey, how is this area?”

Uh, especially when I travel and do an Airbnb.

Scott : Yeah.

JJ: I might, you know, see if I have any friends in that country. I’ll contact them, um, and I’ll say, “Hey, how are the, how’s this neighborhood?” Or, “What are people saying about this neighborhood?”

Scott : Sure.

JJ: That’s very smart. Um, and, uh, and then we, we talked about having a local guide or someone local that can take you around.

I mean, if you have someone that knows the environment, the bi- one of the big benefits to that is that they know what, what n- what not normal looks like.

Scott : Sure.

JJ: So you may, um, because you’re new to the environment or the country, you may not be really reading body language or things that, um, things that, uh, people are demonstrating.

Someone that’s local may be able to kinda give you a [01:00:00] kind of a pre-indicator-

Scott : Sure …

JJ: to, to something that could potentially bad happen.

Scott : Right.

JJ: Um, I remember one time I was in a taxi and I was driving and, um, the window was maybe halfway down. I typically say, “Hey, have your windows up as, as high as you can,” but it was a really hot day, so I had it down a little bit, and I was checking my phone and I noticed that the taxi driver had his phone, and he took it off the cradle and he put it away.

And so I was thinking, “I think we’re about to go through a bad neighborhood,” uh, or someplace where there’s maybe, like, smash and grabs or something like that. Sure. And so I put my phone away, you know. Makes sense. You know, so but if you’re not paying attention, have your eyes open, you may not see some of those things.

Scott : And then when, I think the next, the next thing is, and it’s not at all to make people concerned, but things can go pear-shaped. Yeah. They can really go, go bad. Um, you know, I know that Most of the world, those things don’t occur. But what are some [01:01:00] of the kind of standard operating procedures for if someone has a really bad car accident?

JJ: Yeah.

Scott : How… What should their interface be with, with, um, like the US Embassy or the consular office? Should they call if there’s been a really bad accident preemptively? Should they send a, a, an email? What should be the procedure around bad medical, bad accident, um, conflict of some sort, um-

JJ: Yeah …

Scott : what, what are some of your pieces of advice around that?

JJ: Well, I think first of all, uh, you know, I’m a big proponent of individuals preparing themselves the best that they can. So if there’s available medical training that you can receive, or defensive training that you can receive, um, that’s just good to have period. Yeah. And no matter what, um, you don’t ever plan to be in a situation where those skills may be called [01:02:00] upon for yourself or others or loved ones, so having that ready is, is, is gonna be your first piece to be able to deal with the situation.

‘Cause you may be s- so far away from being able to, to, um, to get the help.

Scott : Yeah. Don’t have your medical kit at the bottom of the pile-

JJ: Yeah …

Scott : in the back of the truck. Make it accessible.

JJ: And, and don’t let the first time you open it when there’s an emergency-

Scott : Yeah …

JJ: know how to use that kit. Um, there is just a lot of resources available.

It’s just a matter of, you know, you may be prioritizing that- Yeah … you wanna get some medical training. Um, we get, uh, we get a lot of training, and we give training to others on, you know, um, how to deal with, you know, massive bleeding and airways and, uh, respirations, basically techniques that fall under this system called MARCH.

That, um, helps keep people alive- Yeah … in traumatic situations. So I’m not, you know, a medic. I don’t, you know, have advanced training, but I have enough training where, you know, potentially I could help sustain life- Yeah. That’s good … until we can get someone to help. [01:03:00] So empowering yourself through getting that training, I think that’s the first piece.

Um, and then if you are in a bad situation, you know, as calm as you can be, I think is key. ‘Cause a lot of times the solutions may be right in front of you. Um, you should be aware of your abilities to, to deal with certain situations. And if you have others around you, you know, work as a team.

Scott : Yeah.

JJ: Whether it’s a security situation or a medical-type situation.

If you are, uh, the victim of a crime, the… or a medical situation, um, you should inform someone, uh, from the embassy about what happened, what has happened to you. And, you know, you could send an email, like I, I talked about, but, you know, you could also call and direct if there’s actual emergency situation.

And, and typically there’s a, a person on duty that can help talk you through, um, the situu- situation that you’re in, and they can help either advise you or direct proper resources to you. So, you know, they may not be able to come out to [01:04:00] you, um, to personally assist you. And then that might not even be their skill set, but they could say, “Hey, there’s a, there’s a good hospital in the area.

They can help treat you,” or, you know, they can maybe connect you to that person. Um, stuff happens all the time. Um, and, you know, in other posts I’ve been at, there’s been situations where people have even… You know, they’ve- they’ve died, and families had to learn how to deal with that situation. And so, uh, and I, I give the push for American Citizen Services under our consular section.

You know, it’s kind of… is a thankless job a lot of times. Yeah. And they, they deal with a lot of issues every, every day.

Scott : And, and making those communication… If something significant has happened, initiating those communications as early as possible is critical. Because let’s say you’ve been in a car accident, um, and you’re, you’re high on adrenaline and, y- you know, people are injured, the vehicle’s damaged.

Yeah. Um, you’re gonna wanna reach out as soon as possible because you may realize, “Oh, my phone’s been damaged and it won’t charge.”

JJ: Mm-hmm.

Scott : [01:05:00] And… Or, um, you know, the vehicle caught fire, I don’t actually have a cord or the battery or, or maybe something escalates with local law enforcement- Yeah … where you’re not gonna be able to have that opportunity to make the phone call.

Yeah. So you wanna make those, you wanna make those communications as soon as something significant has happened. As soon as you’ve stabilized people, you know, kind of triaged a little bit, you definitely wanna let folks know As soon as you can, just so that somebody is aware, and maybe that’s just even on the inreach that it’s just like, “Hey, just had an accident.

This is where I’m at.” Yeah,

JJ: yeah.

Scott : Um, just to let people know what’s going on because if something, something happens, um, it’s a way that at least they’ll know where you are approximately.

JJ: Yeah.

Scott : Um, you know, the other thing that can happen too is you can be, um… It’s potential for travelers to be, to subject to theft and to, uh, violent crimes.

It- generally, what is the [01:06:00] recommendation if, if someone is trying to rob you, what do you guys recommend around those kinds of scenarios?

JJ: Uh, yeah, I mean, usually if someone is, is attempting to take something from you by force, um, they may already have the jump on you.

Scott : Yeah.

JJ: And, uh, what I could say is, if at all possible, right, um, to not show resistance.

Yeah. They’re typically- Comply … and comply, ’cause they’re, they’re typically coming after something financial that you have, like a phone or some money. Um, you can just kinda give that up right away. Um, and, and they, they… You have, you have to kind of consider that that person, uh, that’s trying to take something from you, they’re at a heightened state and, um, they’re anxious, and you wouldn’t wanna do anything that would set that person off.

If you can just provide something, the phone or whatever they possibly want, then they may just go away- Yeah … and, um, [01:07:00] and then not bother you any longer. Um-

Uh, I’ve, I think that, uh, there are some situations when if someone was trying to, you know, kidnap you or something like that, um, and take you away, that may be a situation where you must know your abilities as well, but that may be a situation where it’s appropriate for you to try to fight back or try to escape.

Um, sometimes we’re just in situations where we have no option. Um-

Scott : And I’ve, I’ve heard that as well. If you’re in a group and someone is attempting to kidnap any number of any, any people of the group, it’s, that’s usually the one scenario where you’re better off everybody knowing- Yeah … that you, ’cause usually they, usually nobody survives that, so.

JJ: I, I will go back though to, again, general practice with planning. So if you on your own decide to walk down a dark alley- Yeah … in an unknown part of town- Right … um, y- you know, had you stuck by your rules, which were I’m always [01:08:00] at least with a group or multiple people, I’m only, only going to places that I know about, you’ve now eliminated some potential issue- Yeah

that you, you know, maybe later found yourself into. So, um, I, I, I think that, you know, um, we can find ways to, you know, make ourselves a lot safer just through general practice.

Scott : Yeah, daytime, known locations. Yeah. And these things happen so rarely, but it is important to talk about that, um- You don’t wanna try to be a hero unless you have to be, and there are very few scenarios where you have to be.

You’re better off giving them the wallet, give them the watch- Yeah … um, you know, don’t, don’t try to fight back because that could be just enough delay- Mm-hmm … that they choose to take violence into their own hands. I

JJ: mean, even, even myself with some training, uh, as a federal officer, uh, if someone has the drop on me-

Scott : Yeah

JJ: uh, I mean, I’m, I’m gonna be real about my ability to counter that issue.

Scott : [01:09:00] Right.

JJ: And so if, if there’s a-

Scott : There’s only one John Wick.

JJ: If there’s a, if there’s a higher possibility that I just give them, right, what they want- Sure … and they won’t hurt me-

Scott : Yeah …

JJ: even if I’m ready to go, I… That’s a better situation in my mind- For sure

’cause I go home at the end of the day. Right. Um, and anything that fi- you know, material I can replace. That’s right. You know?

Scott : No, that’s really good advice. Um, we’re getting closer to the end here. Um, we’re not gonna be able to hit all of the questions. We may have to have a part two, which would be really fun.

But, um… And I’ll be back. So, um, I do like to always ask about favorite books, and I know that you enjoy reading yourself. So what are a couple of your favorite books that you’d recommend?

JJ: So I have a personal connection to some of these books, but um, um… So one of them that was, it was a gift, uh, from my wife, uh, when we first got here to, to Kenya, is this book called Surfing: What Surfing Taught Me About Love, Life, and Catching the Perfect [01:10:00] Wave.

So, uh, the reason I like this book is that it’s about a journalist that goes on this journey, and he literally wants to learn how to surf, and he goes through different, you know, s- challenges and struggles as he’s learning to surf, ’cause surfing is hard- Sure … to first learn. And, and I learned years ago, and it’s, uh, therapeutic in many ways.

Um, the book also, uh, it’s based in Baja, California, which is a place that I love- Yeah … and that I lived for, for many years and did, you know, a lot of great things for me. Um, another one, uh, that I, I really liked, it’s, it’s, uh, it’s about, uh, these three contractors, American contractors, that, uh, they were kidnapped by the FARC in Colombia, uh, for, like, five years, and it’s called Out of Captivity: Uh- Wow

1,967 Days in the Colombian Jungle. I just really enjoy this book because I always wonder about what I would do if I was in some sort of stressful situation. And, uh, I, I lived in Colombia years ago- Yeah … and it was a great [01:11:00] place to be. Um, so that, that’s one that was always kinda hard to put down. For sure.

I’ve

Scott : never heard of that one. That one sounds really good.

JJ: I got a co- I’ll give you the copy- … if you want, and read it. So yeah. Yeah,

Scott : absolutely. I’ll do that. I’ll do that. Well, I appreciate, I appreciate those, those pieces of feedback. Um, and then if you were, if you were just to give some, a couple pieces of advice to a new overlander, um, kind of what would be, based upon all of your travel experiences around the world, living around the world, what’s a, what’s a piece of advice or two that you would give to someone that was new to it?

JJ: Uh, I would say don’t be intimidated by the idea of, of traveling abroad overseas. There’s a lot of people that have done it. There’s ways to do it, and I think that there, there’s the opportunity of amazing experiences that you’re missing out on by not doing it. There’s different formulas to get to that same place, though.

So, um, I mean, I, I totally admire folks that are able to get in a vehicle and go and live [01:12:00] abroad. In fact, I have a buddy that’s doing it right now. Um, but you know, that may, may not be the right formula for me, and so, um, my opportunity was to work for the US government living abroad, and it’s been fantastic.

Yeah. It’s, it’s given me opportunities to go to other places, to have a, uh, kind of a stable home environment but also be, uh, abroad. And so it’s, it’s just one of those things where if you’re seeking it out, you could probably find an opportunity there to achieve your goals, your dreams- Yeah … and it may not be the tr- in the traditional sense of what you’re seeing on the, on the Instagram or you know.

Scott : So true. And it’s certainly not a competition. Uh, there is no right way to do it. There’s no wrong way to do it. Everybody has their own journey that they’re on. Um, and it’s important to remember that we should honor what we want to achieve and what our partner and what our travel companions want to achieve, and kind of to hell with whatever, you know, [01:13:00] some podcast host tells

JJ: you how to how to do it- No worries

how to do it. I mean, it, it’s… I, I’ve learned so much actually from, from listening to your podcast. I mean, it’s been a… It’s, it’s helped guided me, uh, especially with my, you know, my truck build and different ideas. So you know, I just really appreciate, you know, you getting that information out there-

Scott : Oh, you’re

JJ: so welcome

and, and the journal as well, you know.

Scott : Well, and, and JJ, thank you for your service to our country. Uh, thank you for the service that you have provided to so many travelers, uh, to dignitaries, to, to really important people that have traveled around the world, um, on behalf of our government and otherwise that you’ve provided safety and security for.

It means a lot what you do, and I’ve already learned so much from our conversations, and I know that our listeners are already learning from what we talked about today. So-

JJ: Thank you …

Scott : we’ll plan on a round two.

JJ: All right. I appreciate it. Thank you.

Scott : Sounds great. All right. Thank you, JJ. Thank

JJ: you.

Scott : Thank you all for listening, and we’ll talk to you next time.