TerraLiner:12 m Globally Mobile Beach House/Class-A Crossover w 6x6 Hybrid Drivetrain

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Hi egn,

Many thanks for all that detail about the internal arrangement of your cabin, and storage! I’ve been thinking almost exactly the same things, but was worried that perhaps I was being a bit too alarmist or skeptical. What you just wrote confirmed all my suspicions.

Most motorhome designs do not seem intended for full-timers, especially not for those who want to live off-grid for up to 2 months at a time. As you suggest, they are only intended for weekenders. And it’s not just their water and fuel tanks. As you wrote, even their storage cupboards for clothing seem insufficient.

Now I do want to get back to electric/hybrid engines, and what that will require. But your most recent post inspired a long list of questions, question that I hope you’ll be willing to answer. So too, anyone else reading this, if you have good advice in response, please chime in!


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A. THE SIZES OF MAJOR TANKS


For two people “boon-docking” completely off-grid for 2 months, what would be your recommendations for the sizes of the following? And if, possible, please also suggest best placement, with a view to creating an optimum weight distribution as some tanks empty, and others fill up…...

I am not interested in what the books say. Rather, I am interested in your opinions, egn, because you strike me as having thought through all of this to an exceptionally high level. So for two months off-grid boon-docking, for two adults (husband and wife), how big should the following be:

1. Freshwater tank(s)
2. Greywater tank
3. Blackwater tank
4. Diesel fuel tank

But here I’d also assume, for instance, that shower water would be recycled to flush the toilet, and perhaps do laundry?


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B. TOILET


The size of these tanks will also depend on the kind of toilet used, which perhaps might be a vacuum-flush Sealand? See http://dometicsanitation.com/International/PG-6985-VacuFlush-Toilet-Systems , http://www.dometicsanitation.com/QB...atalogs/VacuFlush-Product-Guide-Web_14752.pdf , http://www.dometicsanitation.com/QB...063-VacuFlush-Brochure-20120210-Web_11606.pdf .

But some expedition RV’s seem specified as having a macerator toilet, one that pulverizes waste – see http://www.dometicsanitation.com/International/PG-6990-MasterFlush-Toilets , https://www.dometic.com/enus/Americ...ets/toilet-display-page/?productdataid=107361 , http://clients2.kaigan.se/dometic/6492d1f666793d1cdc93b8e76cd1ca8b.pdf , http://clients2.kaigan.se/dometic/d5095748fbfebc4b9f93391ec93f1f8c.pdf , http://clients2.kaigan.se/dometic/6492d1f666793d1cdc93b8e76cd1ca8b.pdf , http://dometicsanitation.com/QBank/...uals/Toilets/MasterFlush-8800-Series_6432.pdf , and http://thetford.com/?TabId=80 . And here’s a video:




If you could suggest other possible toilets, please do.

For instance, what about a composting toilet, of the sort made by Nature’s Head, or Air Head – see http://natureshead.net and http://www.airheadtoilet.com ? The Wynns provide an excellent description of a composting toilet on their blog, at http://www.gonewiththewynns.com/composting-toilet , http://www.gonewiththewynns.com/install-composting-toilet , and see:


[video=youtube;_E2xOoNov9s]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_E2xOoNov9s#t=104  [/video]



Also see http://www.thegoodluckduck.com/2012/10/composting-toilets-for-rvs-and-simple.html .

And of course there are cassette toilets, of the sort made by Thetford – see http://www.thetford-europe.com/product-category/toilets/cassette-toilets/ . But is the cassette large enough to handle waste produced over 2 months?

I am in no position to judge the comparative merits and demerits of these different systems, especially in relation to two months’ boon-docking. So any advice you might be willing to provide would be most appreciated. Needless to say, each choice will have significant design-implications, especially vis-à-vis the size of the “blackwater” and “greywater” tanks required.

Your MAN KAT has a Sealand vacuum flush toilet, right?


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C. SHOWERS AND FAUCETS


Furthermore, the size of these tanks will depend on the shower-head, which should be water-efficient, and the bathroom and kitchen taps, which should be the same.

Any suggestions regarding types or models? Even in the home market there is now a wide range of “aerated” and “non-aerated” low-flow shower-heads and taps to choose from – see http://www.wisegeek.com/what-is-a-low-flow-shower-head.htm , http://www.apartmenttherapy.com/under-pressure-do-water-saving-showerheads-have-oomph-176224 , http://www.thegreenage.co.uk/tech/water-saving-showerheads/ , http://www.ehow.co.uk/how-does_5001940_lowflow-shower-heads-work.html , and http://www.theguardian.com/environment/ethicallivingblog/2008/mar/14/switchtolowflowshowerheads , and see the video at:




In terms of aesthetics and convenience, I am personally fond of commercial-type “gantry” faucets, if only because I’ve used them in large kitchens when doing service retreats at Buddhist meditation centers. Some of these can be very beautiful – for instance, see Waterstone’s gantry faucets at http://www.waterstoneco.com/type/gantry-faucets.php and http://www.waterstoneco.com/faucets/gantry-faucet-hunley12.php :





Kohler’s “Karbon” faucets are also very elegant, and serve as excellent examples of the very best in American product design – see http://www.carbonfibergear.com/kohler-does-karbon-silver-carbon-fiber-kitchen-sink-faucet/ , http://www.us.kohler.com/us/Karbon™-Faucets/content/CNT7900013.htm?id1=www.kohler.com/karbon/ , http://www.kohler.co.uk/common/pdfs/Kitchen_Sinks_April_2014.pdf , and http://www.us.kohler.com/webassets/kpna/brochures/KarbonLavFaucet.pdf :







But I don’t know how water-efficient Waterstone or Kohler Karbon faucets would be.


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D. WATER-MAKING/PURIFICATION


As near as I can tell, one of the biggest headaches in terms of both volume and weight, will be freshwater. With the advent of increasingly powerful, efficient, super-thin film solar panels and large lithium battery banks, having a continuous supply of power for camper consumption is not the same problem as it was 30 years ago. But water still is.

Sure, one can carry a larger freshwater tank, but only up to certain point – see http://earthroamer.com/xv-lt/systems/water/. So the only real solution seems to be some kind of water-making system. Earthroamer seems to have once carried a NASA-designed water-purification system with 150 gallon capacity, but it’s not clear from the Earthroamer website whether current models still do. A few weeks ago I also came across a UniCat video that stated that the particular vehicle being reviewed had an ultra-high-tech water pump and purification system, one that could pull and purify water from even the dirtiest source.

I haven’t investigated this much yet, so any leads and/or directions that you (or anyone else reading this) might provide, would be most appreciated. Large yachts, for instance, will almost always carry Watermakers – see for instance http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Watermaker , http://www.spectrawatermakers.com , and http://www.fischerpanda.co.uk/water_makers.html .

Now sure, even if the size of the freshwater tank could be reduced, via Watermaking, the greywater and blackwater tanks still need to be large enough to hold the waste-water of 2 months’ off-grid living….. On the other hand, greywater disposal seems different than blackwater disposal? Please correct me if this is mistaken.



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E. REFRIGERATOR & FREEZER


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You wrote previously that your KAT is all-electric, and that you carry no LPG. So perhaps you don't have a gas-absorption fridge/freezer made by Thetford or Dometic, the effective “duopoly” in RV refrigeration? On the other hand, maybe you do still have dual-energy Thetford or Dometic RV fridge, just switched to electric?

Alternatively, do you carry an Engel or National Luna expedition-grade fridge/freezer, whose swing-motor compressor can work practically upside down? Or two? Or three? -- see http://www.engelaustralia.com.au , http://www.nationalluna.com/refrigeration.htm .

Does the danger of fire, even in an absorption RV fridge switched to electric, worry you?

What do you think about the new Atwood “Helium” fridge, which replaces flammable Hydrogen in the system with inert Helium – see http://www.atwoodmobile.com/refrigerators/ , http://www.atwoodmobile.com/refrigerators/refrigerators-brochure.asp , and http://www.atwoodmobile.com/images/refrigerator-brochure.pdf ? When absorption fridges are repeatedly tilted off-level, their systems don't work as well, and overheat. Apparently this overheating takes a toll on tubing, the tubing cracks, the Hydrogen leaks, hits the flame, and boom!, a fridge-caused fire destroys your motorhome in minutes. Constant off-level tilting, of course, is par for the course in expedition motorhomes. So having Helium in the refrigerator system instead of Hydrogen would seem to be a step in the right direction? But granted, if you don't have any LPG stored on board and it's not fueling your fridge, then maybe the risk of a big fire is minimal, even if the Hydrogen does leak?

What do you think about ordinary, home-appliance-level compressor fridges for overland travel? Their advantage, of course, is that they use no Hydrogen. Many large American Class-A motorhome manufacturers nowadays will install high-quality versions of these. For instance, Newell installs a Sub-Zero in its motorhomes – see http://www.subzero-wolf.com , http://www.subzero-wolf.com/builtin-refrigerators/BI-30UG-with-glass-door , and http://www.trendhunter.com/trends/sub-zero-refrigerator-nasa-air-filteration-technology .

But can home-appliance-level compressor fridges withstand the rigors and the jolts of travel over rough roads, or no roads? What if a Sub-Zero fridge were “shock-mounted”, as per delicate electronics equipment in the ECS series 4000-6000 cases – see http://www.ecscase.com/rackmount , http://www.ecscase.com/custom-rackmount-cases , and http://www.ecscase.com/media/files/ECS_Custom_Rackmount_Cases.pdf ?

I am only asking, because from a design point of view, I love the "look", the appearance, of a glass-door refrigerator:




Sure, you could try justifying a glass-door refrigerator from an energy point of view, because instead of standing in front of the fridge with the door open, looking for stuff, you can first see what's inside without opening the door - see for instance http://www.trendhunter.com/trends/window-fridge , and http://www.tuvie.com/window-refrigerator-see-whats-inside-without-open-your-fridge/ . But as excuses go for wanting to include a Sub-Zero in a design, that's pretty lame.

The real reason is simple: glass-door fridges look cool.

And, as near as I can tell, Sub-Zero is one of the few manufacturers who make these for the home appliance market. Otherwise, glass-door fridges are usually found at the commercial level, where "True Manufacturing", "Turbo Air", "Traulsen", and "Kelvinator" are often cited as big players in the United States. These things are simply huge: their idea of "small" is 27 inches wide, or 68.5 cm. But they are certainly beautiful: the following is an image of a "True" dual-temperature (i.e. freezer/refrigerator) 2-door (see http://www.truemfg.com/catalog.aspx?language_id=1&event_id=401&categoryId=647&productName=T-23DT-G and http://www.truemfg.com/assets/SpecSheets/T-23DT-G.pdf?t=635336185111772361 ):



Would you know what the German equivalent of a Sub-Zero or True might be? I am fairly certain that the usual suspects, i.e. Bosch, Siemens, Miele, etc., do not make fridges even remotely like this. This is a specialist niche market, so if equivalent German manufacturers exist, they are probably not well-known, even in Germany.

How large should an “adequately sized” refrigerator be, for 2 months' boon-docking, for two people? 10 cubic feet? 280 liters? More?

And the same question for a freezer.


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F. DIESEL KITCHEN


Do you have a diesel hob and oven, as per Earthroamer – see http://earthroamer.com/xv-lt/camping/kitchen/ ? Earthroamer is a big believer in diesel, and like you, completely avoids LPG - see http://earthroamer.com/xv-lt/safety/no-volatile-propane/ , http://earthroamer.com/xv-lt/systems/diesel/ , and http://earthroamer.com/xv-lt/systems/biodiesel-fuel/ .

Here a some very beautiful Earthroamer interiors, with diesel hobs. Details like back-lit semi-transparent cupboards, and recessed indirect strip lighting, suggest that someone at Earthroamer sure knows how to design (see http://earthroamer.com/xv-lt/photos/interior-custom-cherry-wood-finish/ and http://earthroamer.com/xv-lt/photos/interior/ ):






For diesel hobs, the choices seem to be between Wallas and Webasto – see http://www.wallas.fi/index.php?id=59 , http://www.wallas.fi/index.php?id=54 , and http://www.webasto.com/gb/markets-products/motorhomes/comfort-solutions/cooking-solution/ . Whereas in diesel ovens, the only real choice seems to be Wallas – see http://www.wallas.fi/index.php?id=55 .

But if you know of any other manufacturers of diesel hobs or ovens, please recommend names, and if possible, provide links.

Or do have an induction hob instead? And if so, what brand?


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G. GE MICROWAVE / HALOGEN OVEN


Do you also have a microwave, even though it draws so much power?

The Earthroamer comes with a convection microwave (model not specified), but here too Newell seems to have the right idea, and installs a GE "Advantium" combination halogen/microwave oven that's incredibly flexible – see http://www.geappliances.com/appliances/speedcooking-oven.htm , http://products.geappliances.com/ApplProducts/html/GEAResults.htm#Category=Speedcooking_Wall_Ovens&Filters=COOKING$20TECHNOLOGY!Advantium , and http://products.geappliances.com/ApplProducts/html/GEAResults.htm#Category=Over-The-Range_Speedcooking_Ovens&Filters=COOKING$20TECHNOLOGY!Advantium , http://pressroom.geappliances.com/news/2008_advantium240 , http://pressroom.geappliances.com/news/Advantium2007 , and http://www.appliancist.com/appliance_trends/ge-profile-oven-speed-cooking-advantium-oven.html :





Unfortunately, GE no longer seems to be manufacturing the "Profile" series version of the Advantium, that had this beautifully curved front window opening. The newer models are all a bit more rectilinear......

I've spent quite a bit of time looking at ovens -- gas, electric, and microwave -- and this GE Advantium oven seems well-near perfect for a full-timing motorhome. But if you (or anyone else) has other suggestions, I am all ears.


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H. SPLENDIDE WASHER / DRYER


Do you have a washer/dryer? Almost all American RV websites seem to recommend Spendide, which in Europe might be sold as Ariston ? – see http://www.splendide.com/models.htm .

If you do have one, do you have a single "combo” model? And “vented” or “ventless”? – see http://www.splendide.com/splendide_wd2100xc.htm and http://www.splendide.com/splendide_WDC7100XC.htm .

But here too, American RV websites dedicated to full-timing strongly recommend a “stack” of separate washer/separate dryer, if space were available – see http://www.splendide.com/splendide_stackables.htm . Do you think a single “combo” washer/dryer is enough? Or would you recommend a stack?


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I. DISHWASHER


Do you have a dishwasher? Fischer-Paykel's drawer-type dishwashers are popular for RV's, and Newell installs Fischer-Paykel as standard.

But just recently I came across an Asko “outdoor” dishwasher that should be easy to winterize – see http://www.askona.com/dishwashers/ , http://www.askona.com/dishwashers/outdoor-dishwashers/d5954outdoorhsph , http://www.askona.com/files/default/usa/Literature/140045 Total brochure US 2014 web.pdf .

Any other recommendations?


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J. HEATING and HOT WATER


What water-heating and cabin heating system do you use? Do you have under-floor heating?

Alde boilers and under-floor heating systems are popular in Europe – see http://www.alde.se/uk/ , http://www.alde.se/uk/products/mobile/?page=1983 , http://www.alde.se/uk/products/mobile/?page=1417 , http://www.alde.se/media/106185/compact-3020-uk-high-res.pdf , and http://www.alde.se/media/106190/compact-3010-us-letter-high-res.pdf .

Whereas in the United States, Acquahot seems the preferred high-end, quality choice – see http://www.aquahot.com , http://www.aquahot.com/Products.aspx , and http://www.aquahot.com/Products/RV-Applications/675D.aspx .

However, Alde uses LPG, so presumably you don't have that? The AquaHot system can pull heat from a variety of sources, including onshore electric, and it's diesel-fueled. So if you don't have Acquahot, what do you have instead?


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K. AIR-CONDITIONING


How about air-conditioning? The market here is huge, and I still haven't quite make sense of it. So any leads or recommendations you might provide would be most appreciated.



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L. SUPER THIN-FILM SOLAR & KIMBERLEY


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You recently installed solar on the roof your MAN KAT, but in the pictures I saw, these did not seem to be thin-film solar? Please correct me if I am wrong.

Here I want to mention a caravan fabricator called Kimberley, one of the most technology-driven and innovative off-road-specialists in Australia. Perhaps you've already heard of them? The Kimberley websites are a gold-mine of useful, current, up-to-date information – see for instance http://www.kimberleykampers.com/off-road-camper-trailers , http://www.kimberleykaravans.com/off-road-caravans , http://www.kimberleykaravans.com/offroad-caravans-range , http://www.kimberleykruiser.com/australian-off-road-caravan , http://www.kimberleykruiser.com/offroad-caravan-model-summary-3-models , http://www.kimberleykruiser.com/t3-off-road-caravan-best-luxury-in-australia , http://info.kimberleykruiser.com/ki...a0242b19|02557487-d3b3-4bc9-8ed6-22e19c676612 , http://info.kimberleykruiser.com/Portals/210450/docs/kruiser-offroad-caravan-a4-booklet-2014e.pdf , http://www.kimberleykaravans.com/em...Road Caravan - Kimberley 2014 Model Range.pdf , http://info.kimberleykruiser.com/bl...ll-size-off-road-caravan-Kimberley-Kruiser-T3 , http://www.eco-camper.com , etc. etc. etc.

The Kimberley website is huge, and you might spend weeks trying to download it all, if you decide it's useful…. ....But see especially the e-book guides at http://www.kimberleykruiser.com/off-road-caravan-ebooks-guides and http://www.kimberleygroup.com.au/off-road-ebooks-calculators-guides , and the blog-articles at http://info.kimberleykruiser.com/blog/ .

As regards solar in particular, Kimberley advocates the latest super thin-film technology – see http://www.kimberleykruiser.com/super-light-solar , http://www.camp4ever.com/practical-comparison-on-the-different-types-of-portable-solar-panels , http://info.kimberleykampers.com/bl...nels-for-camping-with-off-road-camper-trailer , http://www.camp4ever.com/540w-super-thin-solar-retro-fit-kit , etc. And for more on super thin-film or "third generation" solar, see http://spectrum.ieee.org/energywise...solar-cells-could-generate-10-times-the-power , http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Third_generation_solar_cell , and http://org.ntnu.no/solarcells/pages/generations.php .

Although I am a technophile and have a bit of background in college-level Physics and Math, I am not an engineer. Like most people, all I really want to know is what's the cheapest, most efficient, and most robust solar that I can get right now, and perhaps 2 years from now. Solar seems to be in a continuous state of flux, especially now that the Chinese are investing so heavily in production. So any insight or advice you might be willing to provide would be most appreciated!


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M. THE KIMBERLEY TROPICAL ROOF


Here are some images of Kimberley's flagship "T3" Off-road Caravan, whose exterior is terrific, and whose interior none too shabby either, elegant and full of light:






And here is a video tour of the same:




See http://www.kimberleykruiser.com/australian-off-road-caravan , http://www.kimberleykruiser.com/offroad-caravan-model-summary-3-models , http://www.kimberleykruiser.com/images-on-location , http://www.kimberleykruiser.com/off-road-caravan-test-trek-northern-australia , http://www.kimberleykruiser.com/gibb-river-road-photos-off-road-caravan-kimberley-kruiser , http://www.kimberleykruiser.com/line-of-windows , http://www.kimberleykruiser.com/video-tour-t3-off-road-caravan, http://info.kimberleykruiser.com/bl...ll-size-off-road-caravan-Kimberley-Kruiser-T3 , and http://www.kimberleykruiser.com/offroad-caravan-roadshow-t3 .

I'll post more about Kimberley in future. Right now I was just wondering what you might think about one of Kimberley's most recent innovations, the "Tropical Roof":





The engineering principle is simple enough: a 5 cm gap between a thin “first roof”, and the real “second roof”, dramatically improves the insulating properties of a caravan:

"When Kimberley developed the tropical roof for their off road camper trailer, the drop in temperature inside the camper trailer tent was a staggering 25%. You just wouldn't buy a camper trailer these days without one. But back 8 years ago, they were new and innovative.

A tropical roof was, therefore, a fundamental requirement for the design of a full size off road caravan. The Engineering and design team examined carbon fibre material but the cost was prohibitive. So they embarked on an innovative design using only 1.2mm thick alluminium strengthed by the bonded 1.7mm thick Super Thin Solar panels.

The result is stunning and practical. It is a world first for a standard production caravan.

This tropical roof is more sophisticated than the canvas type. It is specially constructed to sit 50mm above the fibreglass roof and is permanently fitted. The Super Thin Solar panels are bonded to the top with a layer of polyurethane between to form a laminated structure. Dual layer, foam encapsulated thermal insulation is bonded underneath and protected by the folded edges. The solar absorbs the suns energy but passes very little through the tropical roof. The air gap in between allows any breeze to cool the roof. The actual support structure and top hat sections is proprietary to Kimberley.

The tropical roof provides:

• Significant insulation from the heat and cold
• covers 80% of the roof area
• hatches operate straight through special cut-outs
• Support for 720W of Super Thin Solar
• To achieve significant insulation, the underside of the tropical roof is lined with thermal insulation material. The tropical roof wraps around and over this material on the sides.

There was a major reason for installing the roof and that is the air-conditioning design. By reducing the heat load and improving the insulation inside the galley roof, the air-conditioning comprises only a 2.2kw spilt system….."

See – http://www.kimberleykruiser.com/tropical-roof-off-road-caravan , http://info.kimberleykruiser.com/bl...n-Off-road-Caravan-greatly-reduces-Solar-Heat , http://info.kimberleykruiser.com/blog/bid/318690/World-First-for-off-road-caravan-Tropical-Roof , and http://info.kimberleykruiser.com/blog/?Tag=tropical+roof .

What do you think? Does this seem like an important design feature to have on the TerralLiner? Could more ordinary kinds of insulation have much the same effect?


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N. LITHIUM BATTERIES & FUEL CELLS


As you'll see by scanning the side-bars of its webpages, Kimberley is taking the plunge pioneering complete Lithium-based battery systems for caravans, and Kimberley is also a big believer in fuel cells – see http://www.camp4ever.com/sustainable-camping-lithium-batteries-guide , http://info.kimberleykruiser.com/eb...af60806a|37da881a-985c-43a8-8047-792be112644c , http://www.kimberleykruiser.com/off-road-caravan-fuel-cell , http://www.camp4ever.com/140-ahr-day-fuel-cell , http://info.kimberleykruiser.com/bl...-in-a-lightweight-off-road-caravan-what-a-Gem , http://info.camp4ever.com/essential...49187df8|39d3c406-c6bf-4760-a23f-35a6bdfa3142 , and http://info.kimberleykampers.com/bl...Low-Weight-Lithium-Batteries-Solar-Fuel-Cells .

What do you think about Fuel Cells? Are they worth investigating further?

Also, have you seen the "Technomads" webpages for Lithium-Ion battery banks, at http://www.technomadia.com/lithium/ and http://www.technomadia.com/2011/08/we-built-a-lithium-ion-battery-bank/ ? See especially their web-page with a good listing of Lithium-ion battery manufacturers, at http://www.technomadia.com/2011/11/lithium-update-3-lithium-battery-cost/ . It's a bit dated (2011), but seems comprehensive.

It's probably best to treat “solar” as separate sub-theme, and fuel-cells/lithium batteries as yet another, so don't feel obliged to go into elaborate detail about any of this this right now. Instead, I am much more interested in what the spatial requirements might be, for batteries in:

(i) a diesel engine scenario

and

(ii) an electric-hybrid scenario.


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O. DIESEL SCENARIO: SOLAR, BATTERIES, and GENERATOR


So first, the diesel engine scenario.

Imagine that there's still a diesel engine providing propulsion up front...... or yes, in back. And again, a husband and wife team boon-docking for 2 months. What would be the ideal size of:


I. The solar array, in KW. The Shachagra Expedition vehicle, for instance, has a 2 KW array.

II. Two, separate battery banks, in AH. The Shachagra Expedition vehicle has a 2100 AH battery bank.


Sure, I know that everything will depend on the combination of appliances, consumption pattern, etc. But I am merely looking for rough, ball-park figure. Assume that the batteries will be advanced Lithium-ion.

In terms of volume, how large do you think those separate battery banks might be? How heavy, roughly? Again, I'm only looking for a very, very rough estimate at this stage.

Are the battery banks in your MAN KAT located above “flood level”, inside the camper?


III. In addition, even with ample solar, in a previous post you recommended a diesel generator as back-up. Are there any manufacturers/models that you think highly of?

For instance, Cummins/Onan? – see http://power.cummins.com/onanpowerWeb/navigation.do?pageId=650&parentId=533&linkName=RV Generators and http://power.cummins.com/onanpowerW...52&parentId=533&linkName=RV Diesel Generators . Or Fischer-Panda? – see http://www.fischerpanda.co.uk/generators_and_systems.html , http://www.fischerpanda.co.uk/vehicle_generators.html , http://www.fischerpanda.co.uk/vehicle_generator_pvmv-n.html , http://fischerpanda.com/commercial , http://fischerpanda.com/commercial/ac-generators ,

Are there preferred diesel generators in the off-road market? What would be the European preferences? And how many KW?


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P. ELECTRIC/HYBRID SCENARIO: SOLAR, BATTERIES, and DIESEL GENERATOR


Same questions, for a fully electric/hybrid propulsion system.

But in a fully electric/hybrid propulsion system, the diesel generator would have to be much larger, yes? And perhaps something a bit beyond the standard RV market for such products? How many KW, and what brands would be worth investigating, in this second scenario?


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Q. DUAL HIGH-OUTPUT ALTERNATORS instead of a DIESEL GENERATOR?


Note that Earthroamer completely avoids diesel generators, instead advocating heavy duty, high-output, 130 AMP “dual engine alternators” – see http://earthroamer.com/xv-lt/systems/no-noisy-generator/ , http://www.earthroamer.com/tab_xpedition_vehicles/xvlt3_systems.html , http://earthroamer.com/xv-lt/systems/electrical/ . On its website Earthroamer writes:

“The other reasons are its size, weight, noise and fuel consumption. This generator takes up 3.23 cubic feet of space, weighs 200 pounds, is loud (67dBa at no load), and burns more than twice as much fuel (1.25 gallons/hour) as the Ford Power Stroke engine – and produces less power (3.2 kWh continuous) than the dual Ford alternators! The manufacturer of the Fisher-Panda 4000w DC Diesel Generator claims 54db sound level at 7 meters but an independent test measured the Fischer-Panda 4000w at 69 dB (with no load!) which is as loud as the Ford engine at wide open throttle. At idle the Ford engine is only 49.3 dB. The measured fuel consumption of the Fischer-Panda 4000w was 1.25 gallons per hour.”

What do you make of this? Does your MAN KAT have dual, high-output alternators?

This quote also suggests, perhaps, that a hybrid “diesel-electric” propulsion system might not be so wise after all?

Here are some articles about installing dual, high-output alternators, as well as a few links to suppliers, and an evocative image -- http://www.expeditionportal.com/forum/threads/77311-How-to-incorporate-dual-alternators , http://www.ehow.com/list_7555016_advantages-dual-alternators.html , http://www.ehow.com/how_8045175_use-auto-alternators-charge-batteries.html , http://www.ehow.com/facts_8004033_dual-alternator-charging-system-work.html , http://www.zrd.com/pd/esdalternators.html , http://yachtwork.com/report-alternator.htm , http://www.dieselpowermag.com/features/1001dp_hummer_h1/viewall.html , http://www.powerstroke.org/forum/99-03-7-3l-general-discussion/171363-dual-alternator-setup.html , http://www.zrd.com ,http://www.zrd.com/faq/esdfaqzs.html , http://www.zrd.com/pd/esdz1210.html , http://www.powerbastards.com , http://www.nationsstarteralternator.com/High-Amp-Alternators-s/58.htm , and http://www.nationsautoelectric.com/dual_alternator_kit.html :



What brands of high-output alternators would you recommend? For MAN trucks in particular? And what suppliers of dual-alternator kits would you recommend?


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R. INVERTER


Are there any particular brands of inverter/charger that you think highly of? I've read good things about Xantrex, for instance – see http://www.xantrex.com/power-products/inverter-chargers/overview.aspx . Again, ideal size?




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OK, that's enough questions for now.....:sombrero:

Thanks for the leads for electric/hybrid vehicles, which I've begun looking into. But if/when you come across additional electric/hybrid material, especially as it might apply to off-road, overland, or military vehicles, please post.

In the next set of posts I go back to addressing CBE.


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1. CBE, and Hydraulic Rear Veranda


I should “come clean” with the main reason why I want CBE. It's exactly the reason that you mentioned in your post:

Ok, if we look at a non-integrated design, from my experience I would turn this design around and put bedroom in front and put the living room with a large hydraulic veranda to the back. I have thought about such an arrangement for my KAT, but couldn't find a good weight balance.

For instance, I am a great admirer of Rob Gray's Wothahellizat, and what I admire most is the rear living room, with 270-degree panoramic views and a deck:








See http://www.robgray.com.au/graynomad/wothahellizat/wot1/index.php , http://www.robgray.com.au/graynomad/wothahellizat/wot1/photos/index.php , and http://www.robgray.com.au/graynomad/wothahellizat/wot1/plans/index.php .



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I am also a great admirer of Country Coach's “Veranda”:








Sadly, I can't give you any links to the Veranda on Country Coach's website, because during the economic downturn Country Coach went through a rough patch, and seems to have stopped building motorhomes – see http://www.examiner.com/article/sun-may-be-setting-on-country-coach-motorhomes and http://www.examiner.com/article/country-coach-assets-to-be-sold-at-auction . Maybe it's now getting back on its feet, but as near as I can tell, there's still no active link available for the Veranda specifically – see http://www.countrycoach.com .

But the Veranda was such an important innovation, that RV Examiner named Country Coach one of “The world's Ten Best Motorhomes”, and the Veranda the “World's Best RV Living Room with a View” – see http://www.examiner.com/article/the-world-s-ten-best-motorhomes , http://www.examiner.com/slideshow/the-world-s-ten-best-motorhomes#slide=1 .

Although Country Coach patented the Veranda, HWH Corporation did the engineering and fabrication – see http://www.hwhcorp.com/photogal2.html . And HWH seems like a vibrant, going concern.

For the Country Coach Veranda in operation, see:





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And last but not least, I love the flip-down deck at the back of the Caravisio, by Knaus-Tabbert:







See: http://www.examiner.com/article/knaus-tabbert-caravisio-the-shape-of-caravans-to-come , http://www.studio-syn.de/en/studio/category/ueberblick , http://www.studio-syn.de/en/projects/category/alle_projekte , ttp://www.studio-syn.de/en/projects/article/caravisio1 , http://www.studio-syn.de/en/projects/article/caravisio , http://www.knaus.de/knaus/neuheiten-2014/caravisio-2014.html , http://www.knaus.de/en/knaus/novelties-2014/caravisio-2014.html , https://www.facebook.com/caravisio, http://www.gizmag.com/caravisio-camper-concept/28978/ , and http://www.carscoops.com/2013/09/caravisio-caravan-will-cruise-you-into.html .

A rear deck is also important to my overall design agenda. As I wrote in “The Ethics of Third World Travel by Motorhome” :

So if one wants the exterior of a Third-World capable motorhome to engender positive, endearing responses, what would your recommendations be? What would an “encounter enabler” look like, even if it were big?

Here bright colors and uplifting graphics could make a difference, in contrast to most current overland motorhomes, which are usually painted neutral grey or beige. But shape matters too, and also amenities, like fold-down decks or balconies, i.e. semi-public transitional spaces where one might extend hospitality. The RV equivalent of "the front porch", found on antebellum homes throughout the American South, or cottages on New England lakes.

– http://www.expeditionportal.com/for...hics-of-Third-World-Travel-by-Motorhome/page8

In short, a rear deck is fairly non-negotiable design element for me. I need that "front porch".

Ergo, no Pusher.


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2. Deck as Hydraulic Column Lift, and Stacker-Slider Glass Doors


Like you, I've been imagining the deck as hydraulic: as a teak deck applied to the lift-plate of a tail-gate system, of the sort made by manufacturers like Maxon, Waltco, Zepro, MBB Ratcliff Palfinger, and above all Dhollandia, the biggest such specialist in Europe – see http://www.dhollandia.com/GB/en/8/Products# .

As near as I can tell, many of the larger expedition motorhomes that have lift-gates for motorcycles seem to use “cantilever” or “tuck-away” lifts. But for a rear deck, the obvious choice would seem to be a “column lift” – see http://www.dhollandia.com/GB/en/8/Products#/cat/6 . But correct me if you think I'm wrong here.

This rear deck and appropriate lift system might be yet another sub-theme worth discussing at length, along with discussion of the rear sliding glass doors, which – I think – should be "stacker-type" doors, of the kind made by the innovative Italian marine supply company, Opacmare – see http://www.opacmare.it/pages/English_Home/101 , http://www.opacmare.com/pages/3_4_6_wings_doors_list_en/362?ixListPage_3_4_6_wings_doors_list_en=1 , http://www.opacmare.com/pages/manual_door_2065_10/362?ixListPage_3_4_6_wings_doors_list_en=1 , and http://www.opacmare.com/documents/manual_door_2065_10?ixDownload=true :

But Opacmare's curved sliding glass doors are also pretty nice – see http://www.opacmare.com/pages/curved_doors_list_en/365 , http://www.opacmare.com/pages/manual_curved_door_model_2T71_01/365?ixListPage_curved_doors_list_en=1 , http://www.opacmare.com/documents/manual_curved_door_2T71_01?ixDownload=true , http://www.opacmare.com/pages/model_2T31_en/365 , and http://www.opacmare.com/documents/porta_2T31?ixDownload=true :





This three-panel version is just about the right width, too.

Stacker-slider glass walls are now all the rage in architectural design – for instance, see Nanawall at http://www.nanawall.com . So you can imagine my surprise and elation when I came across Opacmare's “Roto Translating” doors, because these are specifically fabricated for motoryachts, and they are designed to endure lots of vibration and pounding. The Caravisio's rear sliding glass doors were also provided by a marine window specialist, called Alukwa – see http://www.alukwa.nl and http://www.alukwa.nl/products/exterior_doors.html .

The only reason I haven't mentioned the rear deck yet, is because some of the other thread-participants already think my proposals are unrealistic and crazy enough as it is. Add in “hydraulic rear verandah”, and they'll go ballistic…..:sombrero:

Of course, as both you and I know, there's nothing new about lift-gate technology, and it has been used in demanding commercial and military applications for decades – for instance, see http://www.dhollandia.com/GB/en/8/Products#/product/61 . But still, probably best to introduce heresies gradually…..


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3. Short Bonnet, and Axle Placement in CBE


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Now in further defense of CBE, it does not necessarily require a huge bonnet. The bonnet on Rob Gray's Wothahellizat, for instance, is not that big:





According to Gray's website, the truck is an “ACCO International ex-army vehicle”, and under the bonnet there is a Perkins 6354, 6-liter diesel engine, turbo-charged – see http://robgray.com/graynomad/wothahellizat/wot1/specs/index.php . Sure, if only for aesthetic reasons, we might want the bonnet longer. But so too, personally I would want a longer bonnet so that the front axle could be located well forward of the cab and the driving position, as per a Mercedes Zetros. Even still, these images demonstrate that very short bonnets are possible, in CBE placement.

Moreover, if the diesel engine were placed transversally, in a kind of “almost-CBE” design, even less length would be lost.

Another advantage of full-fledged CBE design as per the Zetros, is that because the front wheel arch will be forward of the cab, it's no longer a design-worry for the cab-interior:



The video of that beautiful, blue, V-12 6x6 Tatra is instructive here:




Imagine instead that the front axle were ahead of the cab and driver, as per CBE. And then the second axle moves forwards to where the first axle is, between the first and second row of seats. The end of this video covers the interior of the Tatra, and for the most part the floor is flat, and pass-through. There is only an engine-tunnel bulge in the second row, but in a CBE design that engine-tunnel would not exist, because the engine would be up front.....

Of course, it might be good to have substantial inter-axle distance between the first and second axles. So perhaps the second axle would place further back, with the wheel arches locating under the second-row seats? In SUV's this is a standard "trick" used to allow high wheel arches, but short overall vehicle height. The back seat covers or "masks" part of the rear wheel-arches.


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4. Bedroom Location


Now what you wrote about logical bedroom placement is quite correct, assuming that this is no UniCat/XP-style pop-up.

However, once one introduces a vertical, 3-sides-hard/1-side-soft pop-up, the natural place for the master bedroom is up above, just like in a UniCat or Armadillo pop-up. And so the area below could be exclusively devoted to the cab area, then bathroom + kitchen, then living room, in that order. Take a look at the Wothahelizat plans below for this basic sequence, with the living room located in the back:





The Wothahellizat has no full-length hard-sided pop-up, so Gray locates the master bedroom in a “pop-up alcove”, over the cab:








See http://www.robgray.com.au/graynomad/wothahellizat/wot1/index.php , http://www.robgray.com.au/graynomad/wothahellizat/wot1/photos/index.php , and http://www.robgray.com.au/graynomad/wothahellizat/wot1/plans/index.php .

And notice just how far Gray cantilevers his alcove past the front windshield. Although Gray's vehicle is CBE, he loses almost no length because of it!



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5. Floor at the Front of the TerraLiner: 1.35 m above grade?


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Which brings me to my very last major design question.

In your post you stated that you placed your very tall camper, with 2.5 m of headroom, on top of a base platform 1.5 m above grade (here I am calculating 4.0 m - 2.5 m = 1.5 m). Is this correct? Is the platform on which your camper sits, 1.5 m above grade?

I was then wondering: if the chassis were very rigid, as per Tatra, couldn't one then exploit the luxury of being able to vary floor-heights along the whole length of the TerraLiner? One can't do this with a flexible-chassis, of course. But if the Terraliner's chassis were very rigid, then one should be able to build on top of it just as if one were building on top of a more conventional motorhome, right?

Sure, above the third axle's wheel-arches in back, the camper floor should ideally locate at 1.6 m above grade, allowing another 10 cm of wheel-travel, over and above what you've allowed on your MAN KAT. But in the space between the rear axle and the front two axles, couldn't the floor drop down to, say, 1.35 m above grade?

And in the cab area, couldn't the wheel-arches be "finessed" as I just described above, so that at the very worst, second-row seating just sits on top of these, but the corridor between the seats remains at 1.35m above grade?

Here I should note that I have been designing the vehicle for 4-person seating up front in the cab area, not for 2. Ergo, two rows of seating, like a 4-passenger car. But a motorhome like this would have an interior 2.3 m wide, so there would be ample room for a corridor running between the seats, as per the cab area in a Ketterer motorhome, or a Concorde “Centurion”:



See – http://www.ketterer-trucks.de/en.html and http://www.concorde.eu/de/modelle/centurion/beschreibung/ .

And so if the underlying frame's height and rigidity could allow it, the corridor running between the seats could be 1.35 m above grade, even though the second-axle wheel arches (hidden by the seats), would be higher than that..

Now again referring to that video of the V12 6x6 Tatra:




Here the first axle – which would become the second axle in a CBE design – locates between the first and second rows of seating. So in the worst-case scenario, in a CBE design there would be only this second-axle's wheel-arches to worry about, breaking through a camper floor that's 1.35 m above grade. And these could be “finessed” through clever design.

However, if one does not opt for CBE, then the cab area has to cope with two sets of wheel arches to “finesse”, instead of just one…..:yikes:



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6. Making a Full-Length Pop-Up Possible


Now the main reason I am asking whether the floor in front could be just 1.35 m above grade, is because I want to put in a second floor, as per UniCat and Armadillo Pop-ups. As I wrote earlier, I am imagining the TerraLiner as having a very big Pop-Up running across the entire length of the top of the vehicle, a sort of "hybrid" of the Unicat-style Pop-Up and the XP-style Pop-Up, with 3 sides hard and 1 side soft. Refer back to my post in the middle of page 7 of this thread, for a fairly comprehensive explanation of what I have in mind -- http://www.expeditionportal.com/for...xpedition-RV-w-Rigid-Torsion-Free-Frame/page7 .

In Unicat Pop-Ups the second floor runs for roughly 2/3 of the length of the camper box, and I would like to propose the same.

Except that in the TerraLiner, the second floor would run for 2/3 of the total vehicle length, because the design is integrated. So the second floor can also run above the cab area. In other words, because the Terraliner is an integrated design, the second floor could run from the very front of the vehicle, above the windshield, to about 2/3 of the way back. It would stop a little bit short of where the first floor hits the rear wheel arch. At that point, the first floor would rise from 1.35 m to 1.6 m, to clear the rear-axle wheel arches. But there would be no problem with decreased headroom, because the second floor will also have stopped just short of that.

So even when the Pop-Up is not extended, headroom in the back would extend from the rear floor at 1.6 m above grade, to the underside of the roof, at say 3.9 m, thereby giving 2.3 m of interior height in the rear. And when the Pop-Up is extended, "headroom" in the rear the (if one could call it that!) would be spectacular, with a “New York loft ceiling” just like the UniCat Pop-ups.

From the second floor there would then be an overview of this rear living room below, as per UniCat Pop-ups:







This post and the next post provide a compilation of my favorite UniCat interior images. See http://www.unicat.net/en/info/VXL16HD.php , http://www.unicat.net/en/info/EX70HDQ-MANTGA6x6.php , http://www.unicat.net/en/info/EX70HDM-MBActros6x6.php , http://www.unicat.net/en/info/EX70HD2M-MANTGA6x6.php , http://www.unicat.net/en/info/EX63HDSC-MANTGA6x6.php , http://www.unicat.net/en/info/EX63HDM-MANTGA6x6.php , http://www.unicat.net/en/pics/UXL17HD-2.php , http://www.unicat.net/en/info/EX63HD-MANM4x4CC.php , http://www.unicat.net/en/info/EX58HD-MANTGA4x4.php , http://www.unicat.net/en/info/EX49HD-MANM4x4.php , http://www.unicat.net/en/info/EX47HD-UnimogU2450L38.php , http://www.unicat.net/en/info/EX46HD-MANM4x4CC.php , and http://www.unicat.net/en/info/EX45HD-UnimogU5000.php .

And for 360-degree views of some of these interiors, see http://www.unicat.net/en/info/VXL16HD.php , http://www.unicat.net/en/info/EX63HDM-MANTGA6x6.php , http://www.unicat.net/en/info/EX63HD-MANM4x4CC.php , and http://www.unicat.net/en/info/EX45HD-UnimogU5000.php .



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Here are more images of those beautifully spacious, light-filled UniCat Pop-up interiors, with the headroom of a New York loft – see :









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7. Bedroom on the Second Floor, 3.5 m Above Grade


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So if most of the cab-area floor were 1.35 m above grade (except for the second-axle wheel-arches, which have to be “finessed&#8221, and so too the adjacent bathroom and kitchen, then the second floor above could locate at 3.5 m above grade. Allowing for second-floor thickness, this would provide approximately 2.10 m of headroom in the cab, bathroom, and kitchen. Sure, not a huge amount, but certainly enough for these spaces.

Again, if one doesn't opt for CBE, then in the front one has to deal with two axles, and one has to "finesse" two sets of wheel arches, not just one. So if one does not opt for CBE, the probable "solution" is to simply abandon the whole idea of a front floor at 1.35 m. Instead of finessing two sets of wheel arches, the solution would be to simply have the whole floor run at 1.6 m above grade, from the very front to the very back of the TerraLiner. But if one thinks this through, this is not a good solution, if one also wants a full-length Pop-up. If the floor in front is also 1.6 m above grade, then one loses 25 cm of potentially valuable headroom in the front cab area/bathroom/kitchen. The second floor above would then have to locate at 3.75 m above grade instead of 3.5 m, to allow for the same amount of headroom on the first floor below. And 3.75 cm is cutting things awfully close to the allowable height limit of 4.0 m.

So do you see the problem? Do you see why I am so curious to know whether the floor can be 1.35 m above grade in front, only rising to 1.6 m above grade in back?

Now the bedroom area on the second floor would have a headroom height provided by whatever vertical travel we mandate for the Pop-up. Clearly, 2.0 m is a minimum, and 2.20 m ideal. But if the bedroom floor begins at 3.5 above grade, and the vehicle is 4 m high overall, then at least 40 cm of headroom is already accounted for. And so the pop-up might only need to travel vertically about 1.8 m, to provide interior headroom for the bedroom of 2.20 m.

The resulting bedroom space on the second floor would be simply spectacular, huge and spacious. Even more huge and spacious than the Armadillo bedroom pictured below, because it would run for roughly 2/3 the length of a fully integrated vehicle:





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8. The View out the Back....


The living room in the rear, with the Pop-Up ceiling about 4.2 m above rear floor, would be stunning -- a rear floor that, again, would locate 1.6 m above grade. Light would stream down through high “clerestory windows” in the Pop-up, as per the Armadillo images below. And so too, light would stream through the glass stacker-slider doors running along the back wall, which would lead out to a rear deck, also at 1.6 m above grade.
Or perhaps the deck would be a step or two lower than 1.6 m, placing at 1.2 m above grade, to expand the view out the back even more, courtesy of our hydraulic column lift….:coffeedrink:

Look at these images of the Armadillo “living room”, and imagine a wall of sliding glass doors running right across the back of it, as per those Caravisio images in the first post on this page (i.e. at the top of page 15):





And here are some more images of the same space:






See http://translate.googleusercontent....v.com/&usg=ALkJrhiqKuUmnIyjt030tiBPVDEoOuJlQg , http://translate.googleusercontent....t.aspx&usg=ALkJrhhXH6gvo-XiJaJVc4Gd9sI3rmpq4Q , http://translate.googleusercontent....tID=18&usg=ALkJrhic-jU7ku_p2IKD7lvmmFkMoYtgVw , and http://translate.googleusercontent....ssID=3&usg=ALkJrhh7mvaM0mNrNKsTm5AXF1beywnzVQ .

If you can read Chinese, see http://www.armadillo-rv.com/Product.aspx?BigClassID=1 , http://www.armadillo-rv.com/ProductDetail.aspx?ProductID=18 , and http://www.armadillo-rv.com/ProductImageShow.aspx?ProductID=18&PhotoClassID=3 .



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9. Is a Split-Level, 1.35/1.6 m First Floor Possible? MAN and TATRA Schematics


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In short summary, my last big remaining design question is:


Is a Cab/Kitchen/Bathroom floor at 1.35 m above grade possible? Can the first floor of the TerraLiner be moderately "split-level", with the front 1.35 m above grade, rising to 1.6 m above grade in the rear?


Yes, I know that the floor probably has to be 8 – 10 cm thick, to account for insulation. And perhaps it still has to be “spring-mounted”, as you suggested in the "pivoting frames and mounting campers" thread, albeit not mounted on a pivoting sub-frame......

On the rather imperfect schematics available for the MAN KAT, for instance, the frame seems to stop something short of 1.249 m above grade (the H3 measurement):




Here I am using the H3 measurement for Michelin 14.00 R20 tires, and not the measurement for Michelin 16.00 R20's. The latter H3 measurement is a bit higher, 1.280 m. So the first measurement does seem to leave the requisite amount of space necessary for a floor thick with insulation. It leaves a full 10 cm, in fact, between 1.25 m and 1.35 m above grade.

I don't have an equivalent schematic for the SX-45. But perhaps the box-frame height for the SX-45 above grade (i.e. the H3 measurement) is not that much different from the MAN KAT?

The schematics that I have for Tatra are very imperfect -- see http://www.tatra.cz/underwood/download/files/tatra-military-vehicles_en.pdf and http://www.tatra.cz/underwood/download/files/tatra-military-vehicles_en-2.pdf :





However, if you measure the chassis frame-heights in these 3 drawings by scaling with a ruler, the “H3” measurement on the Tatra frame seems to be even lower: roughly 1.17 or 1.18 m above grade! Perhaps I am missing something? If I am, please let me know.

For instance, perhaps the tires are not Michelin 14.00 R20's?

However I scaled the tires with a ruler, too, across the horizontal (not the vertical) diameter, and they measure about 1.26 m wide, which is indeed the diameter of Michelin 14.00 R20's (49.5 inches = 125.7 cm) -- see http://www.pirate4x4.com/tech/billavista/PDFs/Michelin XZL.pdf . So if I am measuring correctly, then it seems that there should be no problem whatsoever having the front floor of the camper locate at 1.35 m above grade, on a Tatra chassis. Indeed, there seems to be 17 or 18 cm of space or "leeway" between the Tatra chassis and 1.35 m. So much leeway, in fact, that perhaps on a Tatra chassis the front floor of the camper could locate at 1.30 m above grade, instead of 1.35 m?

In its product literature Tatra advertises its backbone tube technology as ultra-rigid, torsion-free, and low: as a design that allows overall vehicle height to remain low (unloaded), thereby making its trucks easy to transport by air. So maybe this 1.17 or 1.18 "H3" height is for real?

The central question that I need to ask you, then, is quite simple: assuming a CBE design, could I have a first-floor floor-height of 1.35 m for much of the length of the TerraLiner in front, only needing to “finesse” the wheel-arches over the second-axle? That first-floor height would then rise to a uniform 1.6 m above grade in the rear, where the living room is located, in order to clear the third axle's wheel arches in the back.

Could such a “split-level” first-floor work?


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10. Total Surface Area, and the

........Mathematics of Slide-Outs versus Pop-Ups


Now let's assume for the moment that a first floor at 1.35 m above grade is possible, for the first 2/3 of the vehicle. I really do need to hear back from you about this, egn, if you think it's not possible!! But for the next 6 or 7 posts, I will assume that it is.

What then seems conceivable is a Pop-up TerraLiner 9.5 m long, where the first floor would have 7.5 m x 2.3 m of usable space, or 17.25 square meters. Here we have to subtract 2 m from the front of the front bumper to the edge of the dash, for a Zetros-like CBE placement. Note that even in a Pusher design we will still need to subtract at least 1.0 m from the front. But more on that below, in the next post following this one......:sombrero:

This first floor will divide into two sections, the front section 1.35 m above grade, running perhaps 4.5 m from the edge of the dash until we reach the wheel arch of the third axle. And the second section then jumps to 1.6 m above grade, and is 3.0 m long, to the end of the vehicle. So the “living room” in this scenario is 3.0 m long.

Of course if the third axle were placed further back towards the rear, improving the departure angle from 25 degrees to 30 or 40 degrees, then the living room in the rear could be shorter, and the cab + bathroom + kitchen in the front could be longer.

So suppose we settle on a living room 2.0 m long instead. This then tells us where the second floor stops, and the double-height, New-York-loft space of the living room begins. Assuming that the Pop-up is cantilevered a bit over the front windshield, say 40 cm, as per Rob Gray's Wothahelizat or the XP Camper, we might "lose" only 1.60 or 1.70 cm in the front on the second floor, not the full 2.0 m. So on the second floor we have 9.5 m - 1.70 cm - 2.0 m = 5.8 m. And 5.8 x 2.3 m = 13.34 square meters.

So total usable space in this motorhome seems to be 17.25 + 13.34 square meters, or 30.59 square meters, with the pop-up increasing space by a whopping 75 %.

This should not be surprising, however, because if you work through the math on Unicat's four-sided Pop-ups, it's roughly the same. The second floors of most UniCat Pop-ups seem to run for 2/3 of the camper length. So it stands to reason that they increase the square-meterage of UniCat campers by roughly 66 %.

Now compare this to my calculations earlier for a Rexhall motorhome, which features some of the most generous, full-length, horizontal slide-outs in the mainstream RV industry -- see http://www.expeditionportal.com/for...pedition-RV-w-Rigid-Torsion-Free-Frame/page12 . Rexhall's horizontal slides increased interior surface area only about 34 %. You can then see why UniCat's vertical Pop-ups are so attractive: they have the potential to dramatically increase both internal surface area and volume. Much more so, it would seem, than even the most technologically advanced, generous horizontal slide-outs of the kind made by Rexhall.

I then wonder why not more mainstream motorhomes have "vertical slides" -- i.e. Pop-ups -- similar to UniCat's? The math seems to say it all. There seems to be a much greater potential for a dramatic increase in square-meterage via vertical Pop-ups, as opposed to horizontal slide-outs. Sure, the space created on the second floor by a vertical Pop-up will at best contain only very "low-rise" furniture, of the kind you can see in the UniCat and Armadillo images above. So in that sense, the extra second-floor space that a vertical Pop-up creates is not as fully usable as horizontal slide-out space could be below.

But you'd be surprised how many different kinds of useful furniture can be designed to fit into a space just 40 cm high! And the mere act of transposing the bedroom to the second floor frees up a huge amount of length below.



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11. Summary So Far


Now yes, I have drawings of all of this. Hundreds of drawings, in fact. I am a designer, so drawing is compulsive, and it's fun to draw wild ideas even if one is not 100 % certain that all the measurements are right. But experimenting-through-drawing on my own is one thing, and posting such experiments in public is another. Especially if there is a danger that my whole line of thinking could be completely wrong, because I got the engineering wrong, or a critical measurement wrong (i.e. H3 chassis height!!!).
So please, if possible, let me know ASAP whether you think 1.35 m is a feasible as a height for the front of the camper, up to the third axle in the rear, in a CBE design. Even if you are still dead set against CBE....:coffeedrink:...

Please let me know whether you think a "split level" 1.35/1.6 m first floor is possible.

All best wishes,



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egn,

If you followed all of the above, then the logical “next steps” in the design-dialectic of the TerraLiner would seem to be the following.

First off, the Concorde "LinerPlus" ground-plans will prove very useful in the next series of posts, especially the ground plan for the shorter LinerPlus that's 9.4 m long – see http://www.concorde.eu/en/models/liner-plus-2013/description/ , http://www.concorde.eu/en/models/liner-plus-2013/layout.html , or http://www.concorde.eu/de/modelle/liner-plus/grundrisse.html :



The rationale here is simple. Instead of reinventing the wheel every time they try to push the envelope on a given vehicle type, transportation designers will work through the logic of a previously existing design (or designs), seeing how a new concept (for instance, a full-length Pop-Up), will impact a proven format. Or put another way, the goal here is to design an off-road RV that is 8 - 10 m long, about the same length as a German "Liner" class integrated motorhome. So as we work out the interior, what better place to begin than with a German, Liner-class motorhome that is very well-designed, like the Concorde LinerPlus? And that's also about 9.5 m long....


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1. Concorde LinerPlus vs Zetros:...2.0 m "CBE Length Penalty"? or 1.0 m? 50 cm? 1.5 m?


Now it's important to note that even in such a “Pusher” vehicle, the driver's seat is still located considerably to the rear of the front bumper, probably for safety reasons.

Scaling the LinerPlus 940 M ground-plan above with a ruler, there seems to be about 1 m of space from the front bumper to the leading edge of the dashboard. Please double-check yourself, to see if I am right about this. Don't take my word for it!

If I am right about this, then it is wrong-headed to imagine that a "Pusher" engine-placement gains one 2.0 m of extra camper-space in comparison to CBE placement. Pusher-placement seems to lose at least 1.0 m of space in front, too. Sure, maybe the Concorde Liner-Plus is "driver-placement inefficient", and maybe the driving position could be rammed forward even more? But somehow I doubt it.

I am then tempted to suggest that the “CBE length penalty” here is not even 1.0 m, comparatively speaking, but rather, just 50 cm! Certainly the length penalty would be only 50 cm if the Terraliner's bonnet were super-short, as per Rob Gray's snub-nosed truck for the Wothahellizat. But just for argument's sake, let's reason conservatively, and let's still suppose that the "CBE length penalty" is still 1.0 m, relative to a Concorde Pusher like the LinerPlus.

This also seems reasonable because I estimate that the distance from the front bumper of a Zetros to the leading edge of it's dashboard is about 2 m. I do not have super-detailed plans for a Zetros, and this is just a guesstimate from schematics available on-line (see the one posted above). But even still, a "CBE length penalty" of 1.0 m relative to a Concorde LinerPlus seems roughly correct. Of course I also want to reason this way because in a CBE design, the front axle should locate sufficiently forward vis-a-vis the driving position. After all, that's one of the main reasons to opt for “full bonnet” CBE: greater driving comfort.

But if anyone reading this knows the exact distance from front-bumper to the leading edge of a Zetros dashboard, please post!

I have to also grant that the "CBE Length Penalty" could be slightly more, maybe as much as 1.5 m, relative to a Pusher. For instance, the following side-elevation of the Tatra 6x6 "chassis-only", CBE-format vehicle is fairly detailed:



See http://www.tatra.cz/underwood/download/files/tatra-military-vehicles_en-2.pdf .

If we scale this elevation, and measure from the front of the frame to the front of the dash, the distance seems to lie somewhere between 2.2 m to 2.4 m, suggesting a possible length-penalty of 1.2 - 1.4 m. But perhaps Tatra did not design this engine's location to be very "compressed", lengthwise? And, of course, the amount of space needed lengthwise also depends on the size of the engine.

So for now, I will assume that a "CBE length penalty" of 1.0 m, relative to a Concorde Pusher like the LinerPlus, is a reasonably good, rough-ball-park sort of estimate.


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2. LinerPlus Cab Area Doubles as Dinette, and Triples as Living Room


The front cab-area of the LinerPlus, quite clearly, does double-duty as a dinette. That's the beauty of an integrated design:





But if you look closely at the LinerPlus ground plans and images on-line, you might realize that the front of a LinerPlus actually does triple duty: it functions as a cab area, as a dinette, and also as a living room. That's why it has those big couches, and is then proportioned accordingly. However, because the TerraLiner will have a big living room in back instead, all we really need up front is enough space so that 4 people can travel in comfort, and can also dine, sitting in those same 4 swivel seats. The table would be retractable and/or otherwise stowable.

Here I have in mind something similar to the LinerPlus layouts where 3 seats are usable for driving, and instead of a fourth driving seat there is a couch. Presumably the table to the side extends, and allows dining for four:





See http://www.demo.spherovision.de/me/concorde_liner/0_spherovision_webpan3/sv_wp3_viewer.html .

Note that I am just as happy to design for three driving seats as four. But I think the potential market for the vehicle shrinks tremendously if we design for only two driving seats.


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3. Charisma-Proportioned Cab-Area / Dinette: 2.5 m long


Unfortunately, none of the LinerPlus ground-plans gives us realistic dimensions for this particular arrangement, because the couches in the LinerPlus ground-plans are awfully long. Again, they are designed to serve as “living room” couches.

For more realistic dimensions, we have to turn instead to a different Concorde model, the “Charisma 920 G”:



See http://www.concorde.eu/en/models/charisma-iii/description/ , http://www.concorde.eu/en/models/charisma-iii/layout.html , or http://www.concorde.eu/de/modelle/charisma/grundrisse.html .

Here then are some images for the Charisma's seating + dining area:





See http://www.demo.spherovision.de/me/concorde_charisma/0_spherovision_webpan3/sv_wp3_viewer.html .

Scaling the Charisma 920 G groundplan, the distance from the front edge of the dash to the back of the couch area is 2.3 m, and 3.5 m overall from the front bumper. But let's play it safe, and let's say that the seating + dining area should be about 2.5 m long. From the edge of the dash to the front of a Zetros bonnet then adds another 2 m.

So even if we allocate an additional 1.0 m "length penalty" for a CBE bonnet, we've now covered both driving seats and a dinette area for four, in a length of 4.5 m from the front bumper.

Total length used so far: 4.5 m



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4. LinerPlus-Type Bathroom: 1.5 m long


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The bathroom should locate immediately behind the cab/dinette area, so that it can be easily accessed from the same.

Personally, I am fond of RV bathroom arrangements that have the passageway going directly through the bathroom, with toilet and shower on one side, and a vanity on the other (or some such combination). Either pocket-doors or swing-out doors then do “double-duty” as space dividers, and create a single, unified bathroom space that extends clear across the full width of the vehicle interior, 2.3 m wide. In effect, the passageway space does “double-duty” as bathroom space.

Personally, I have never seen an off-road motorhome with this space-saving feature.

The Concorde LinerPlus 360-degree viewer nicely illustrates this type of bathroom, using pocket-doors – see http://www.demo.spherovision.de/me/concorde_liner/0_spherovision_webpan3/sv_wp3_viewer.html :







I like generously proportioned bathrooms, even in an RV. On the ground-plans almost all the LinerPlus bathrooms seem to scale as 1.5 m long – again, see http://www.concorde.eu/de/modelle/liner-plus/grundrisse.html . So let's say the bathroom area will need another 1.5 m of length.

Total length used so far: 6.0 m


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5. Second-floor Bedroom: 4.3 m long


Now the bedroom on the second floor above does not need to be 5.8 m x 2.3 m. It could be less. So the next step is to realize that if we cut back the length of the second floor above, we free up headroom over the kitchen.

Let's say that the second floor will extend only as far as the end of the shower/toilet area, i.e. to 6 m as measured from the front bumper. But we have to deduct 1.70 cm, because the “cantilever” of the second floor out in front, past the windshield, will be at most 40 cm, and probably more like 30 cm. I am not quite sure about this, because this will be mainly a “styling” issue. How much cantilever would “look good”, i.e. would serve as an elegant sun-visor? And how much would look excessive? A very aggressive, massive cantilever as per Rob Gray's Wothahellizat is probably not desirable, and also not needed. The bedroom space on the second floor is already long enough as it is. So let's deduct 1.70 cm, and we end up with a bedroom space that will be roughly 4.3 m long.

This would be more than long enough to fit a California King-sized bed (183 cm x 213 cm), and would provide another 2 m of free floor-space in front of that, for dressing, and for flat, low-rise cupboard space. Personally speaking, I practice meditation and yoga, and so I've imagined this abundant space in front of the bed as room available for such activities.


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6. Kitchen at 1.6 m above grade: 1.5 m long


Now if the second floor stops at 6 m, then this means that all the space between there and the back of the coach would be “cathedral height” ceiling. The kitchen, in short, could have a ceiling height every bit as generous as the living room.

Which means – you guessed it – that the kitchen floor could also be raised to 1.6 m above grade, and even as high as 1.7 or 2.0 m . Here I am allowing for the possibility of retractable scissor-steps up to the kitchen, steps that won't block the bathroom area when they are retracted.

So the first floor, in fact, only needs to be 1.35 m above grade for the cab/dinette area, + the toilet/shower. The first floor only needs to be 1.35 above grade for the first 6 m of the Terraliner's length (i.e. 4 m from the front edge of the dashboard).

Raising the kitchen in this way would provide exactly what you have in your MAN KAT, egn: lots of storage space underneath for canned goods.

The idea of raising the kitchen floor already occurred to me many months ago, for aesthetic reasons. If the kitchen floor were not raised, then the roof above would be 4.2 + 25 cm = 4.45 m distant. And this would look and feel “odd”. Whereas if the kitchen floor were raised, even as high as 1.9 m say, then the kitchen could “look down" on the living room. It would look down on the enormous wall of glass in back, the rear deck, and the terrific view. And if the kitchen were raised to 1.9 m above grade, then there would be 55 cm of space underneath for canned-goods storage.

Of course, even if the kitchen were not raised to 1.9 m, but just to 1.6 m, it could still be "design-integrated" with the living room in a wonderful way. Take a look again at the images of the Armadillo Pop-Up posted above, and how the Armadillo kitchen relates to the living room space in back.

On the Concorde LinerPlus plan the kitchen area is 1.5 m long, so let's imagine it as the same, but with cupboards and surfaces on both sides of the coach.

Personally I like a bigger kitchen, and many will complain on RV blogs that contemporary motorhomes tend to have kitchens whose countertops and sinks are ludicrously small, whose cupboard spaces are inadequate, whose positioning of sinks in relation to hobs is counterintuitive, and so on. For weekenders this may not be much of a problem, but full-timers need something more usable. Some will also insist that just 2 burners is not enough, no doubt because they are habituated to 4 burners at home, or even more, if they are gourmands who love cooking, and enjoy the luxury line-up of 3 or 4 different Domino hobs -- see http://www.ultimate-kitchens.co/sit...;-perfect-for-the-ultimate-kitchen-by-design/ . For an interesting description of what seems to be wrong with many contemporary RV kitchens, see http://www.rv-insight.com/RV-Kitchens.html .

Here is another photograph of Kimberley's T3 kitchen. Just look at that countertop!



See http://www.kimberleykruiser.com/images-on-location .


Total length used so far: 7.5 m.



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7. Rear Living Room: 2.0 m long


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This then leaves 2 m of length available for the rear living room.

Of course, skeptics will add that I need to allocate another 40 cm or so for spare Michelin 14.00 R20 tires, which would have to mount either on the rear wall of the Pop-Up, or on the underside of the drop-down hydraulic deck, as per the "EcoRoamer" - see http://www.examiner.com/slideshow/killer-rv-upgrades-show-to-debut-on-the-travel-channel#slide=1 , http://www.examiner.com/article/killer-rv-upgrades-show-to-debut-on-the-travel-channel , and http://www.expeditionportal.com/forum/threads/8936-Eco-Roamer-F650-based-Expedition-Vehicle . If the tires were to mount on the Pop-Up, it would certainly have to be a very robust Pop-up. And the deck itself when folded up might add another 30 or 40 cm of depth. And if the rear glass sliding doors curve….. and so on.

This is all true. All the various bits that nest and fold in the back would have to be worked out, and I have quite a few drawings that address just this.

But what I have really been specifying here is a vehicle similar in overall length and volume to the the UniCat EX70HD2M-MANTGA6x6. This is one of UniCat's larger Pop-Up vehicles, and measures almost 11 m (10.961 m) from the nose of the vehicle to the back of the motorcycle lift. Without the rear-tire and motorcycle lift, just the cab+camper length scales to roughly 9.6 m, i.e. almost the same as the TerraLiner that I've been specifying. If you have time, please scale the elevation yourself, to see if this seems correct.









See -- http://www.unicat.com/en/info/EX70HD2M-MANTGA6x6.php , http://www.unicat.com/en/pics/EX70HD2M-MANTGA6x6-2.php , and http://www.unicat.net/pdf/EX70HD2M-MANTGA6x6-exposee-en.pdf

Note that plan-view measurements of 9.1 m x 3.224 m appear to be mistaken. UniCat's specification in the PDF states that the camper box is 7 m long x 2.48 cm wide externally, and 2.36 m wide internally. This also makes sense if you look at the elevation. If the camper box were 9.1 m long, then the total vehicle length including motorcycle lift would be 14.29 m! A clear impossibility.

So taking 7 m long x 2.48 cm as our plan-view measurements instead, the rear seating area in this UniCat camper is 1.9 m long, i.e. roughly the same length that I have been projecting for the living room of the TerraLiner.

But some differences are:


1. The TerraLiner would be CBE instead of COE. Many people would find the TeraLiner's ride more comfortable, and the engine would be more accessible.

2. The TerraLiner's dinette area would be 2.5 m long, as opposed to approx. 1.4 m long. See the area in the plan-view above labeled “Front Table”.

3. The bathroom (shower, toilet, + vanity) in the TerraLiner would be 1.5 m x 2.3 m = 3.45 square meters, versus approx. 1.74 square meters for the bathroom area in the plan-view above.


And so on, including the cathedral-ceiling height available above the TerraLiner's kitchen, and the storage volume under the kitchen..... All of this difference, of course, is the direct consequence of going with an integrated as opposed to a non-integrated design.

Now someone might complain that it is "unfair" to compare the TerraLiner's combination cab-area/dinette, 2.5 m long, to just the dinette area in the UniCat plan-view above, approx. 1.4 m long. They might argue that a better comparison would be to the UniCat's dinette combined with driving seats up front, in the MAN TGA cab. And perhaps this combined measurement comes to 1.4 m + 1.8 m = 3.2 m . (MAN TGA and TGS cabs are typically 2.28 m long overall, from front to rear, but interior space from dash leading edge to the back of the cab is more like 1.8 m -- see http://www.mantruckandbus.com.ua/man/media/migrated/doc/master_1/TGA__en_.pdf , and http://www.truck.man.eu/man/media/e...ss_website_truck_master_1/tgs_ww_russland.pdf ). So perhaps one could say that in the UniCat, the equivalent space is 3.2 m long.

But there is dramatic difference in the usability of this space, as between a non-integrated design like the UniCat and an integrated design like the Concorde LinerPlus shown earlier. To state the obvious, the 1.8 m of space in the MAN TGA cab is not unusable by the dinette. The dinette really is approx. 1.4 m long, and it is not 3.2 m long. And up front in the MAN TGA cab there are driving seats for 3 people, sitting in a single row. There is not seating available in a standard MAN TGA cab for 4 people, arranged comfortably in two rows. Needless to say, the dinette seats in the UniCat camper box are not available to be used as driving seats as well.

Indeed, although the total space for driving + dinette in the UniCat is longer -- approx. 3.2 m instead of 2.5 m -- that 3.2 m of space is used much less efficiently.

In short, when working within the constraints of a non-integrated design, there is only so much "double-duty" or "triple-duty" one can extract. This UniCat design is excellent within non-integrated parameters, and it is probably as space-efficient as any non-integrated design could be. To extract more usability and "spaciousness" from the same length and volume, one needs to go integrated.


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8. Overall Measurements


The previous was only a very rough sketch. But it suggests that such functionality and spaciousness could in fact be obtainable in a vehicle roughly 9.5 - 11 m long. And yet I know of no motorhome, neither mainstream nor expedition, that combines:


• A 2.5 m long dinette area

• A bathroom that is 3.45 square meters

• A dedicated living room with rear deck that's 2 m long, with a "cathedral-height" ceiling

• A kitchen area on both sides of a coach, for total cupboard/counter length of 3.0 m, also with a "cathedral-height" ceiling

• An enormous second-floor bedroom area that's 4.3 m long


And all of this in a package where the vehicle itself is just 9.5 m long, and the tire + motorcycle lift on the back might raise that length to 11 m. This is not a Newell running to 13.75 m, or a Ketterer approaching 12 m. This could still be usable as a “bad-road”, Third-World capable motorhome.

Of course, it might be nice if the rear living room were 2.5 m or even 3 m long, instead of 2 m long...... But I'll leave that debate for later. :sombrero:




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egn,

Just two brief subsidiary technical questions, best asked here.

In your experience traveling on ferries with your MAN KAT in Western Europe, Eastern Europe, Russia, Turkey, etc., does a motorcycle sitting high on a tail-gate lift in the back count as included in overall vehicle length? Put another way, would the UniCat EX70HD2M-MANTGA6x6 pictured above have to pay quite a bit more on a ferry, because its overall length including the motorcycle lift is greater than 10 m? Or would most ferries count only the length of its cab + camper box, which is less than 10 m, i.e. approx. 9.6 m?

My guess is that they would insist on overall length, because that's what actually matters spatially when packing vehicles to fit tight into ferries. But please clarify, if you know the answer.

There's also a second, more subtle, "bureaucratic" sort of question. You wrote earlier that in Germany motorhomes fall under a special classification, different from trucks and buses. And that the maximum motorhome length allowed in Germany is 12 m. Does this 12 m length-limit in Germany also include "stuff" on the back, i.e. stuff like the motorcycle lift on the UniCat EX70HD2M-MANTGA6x6 pictured above? If this UniCat's cab + camper box were 12 m, and the motorcycle lift in back added another 1.5 m to its length, would it be illegal?




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9. Summary of the Engineering Challenges


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The critical engineering elements in this design are:


I....A super-rigid chassis that does not flex. If the SX-45 or Tatra 815 chassis did not exist, this design would be impossible.

II... A 3-sides-hard/one-side-soft, very large Pop-up: a kind of cross between the XP camper Pop-up, and the UniCat Pop-up.


The engineering challenges involved in creating such a Pop-up, such that it will work reliably day-in/day-out, are no doubt significant. And sure, there is lots to consider, like thermal expansion/contraction. But American companies specialized in fabricating slide-outs for RV's – companies like HWH, PowerGear, JexCar, Lippert Components, and Valid Manufacturing – have been working on the technology for over a decade. See
http://www.hwhcorp.com , http://www.hwhcorp.com/slideouts3.html , http://www.hwhcorp.com/ml35809_2014.pdf , http://www.hwhcorp.com/ml23034c.pdf , http://www.powergearus.com/products/slideout-systems , http://www.powergearus.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/05/RV-Catalog-2014Wb.pdf , http://www.jexcar.com , http://www.jexcar.com/our-company , http://www.jexcar.com/model-range/monolith , http://www.jexcar.com/model-range/double-expandable , http://www.lippertcomponents.com , http://www.lippertcomponents.com/products-list , and http://www.lippertcomponents.com/through-frame-slideout .

Valid Manufacturing in particular (which Newell Coach uses for its slide-outs) seems especially innovative and open to custom projects – see http://www.validmanufacturing.com/index.php?pid=1 , http://www.validmanufacturing.com/index.php?pid=2 , and http://www.validmanufacturing.com/index.php?pid=37 . And Valid has already created at least one extra-large-size pop-up – see http://www.validmanufacturing.com/index.php?pid=18 . But Jexcar also seems a good option – again, see http://www.jexcar.com/our-company .

It is truly astonishing just how creative the mainstream American RV industry can be!

It is also worth noting that Actionmobil, Armadillo, and UniCat have also produced some pretty big, 4-sides-hard Pop-ups.

First, there's ActionMobil's "Outback":




See http://actionmobil.com/en/4-axle/specials .


Next, Armadillo's TGS 6x6 VL1:



See http://translate.googleusercontent....tID=18&usg=ALkJrhhf3z6h_FJ8JYlGWLUjj3XxP5IdlQ .


And last but not least, UniCat's EX70HDM-MBActros6x6, and at least 12 additional Pop-Ups......:sunny:




See http://www.unicat.net/en/pics/EX70HDM-MBActros6x6-2.php .


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10. Pop-Up Vertical Travel, and Bedroom Interior Height


At this stage it's worth noting that the exteriors of the Pop-ups shown above all seem to be somewhat shy of 2 m high. Furthermore, when one looks at photographs in previous posts of UniCat Pop-up interiors or the Armadillo interior, it seems that they do not provide 2.0 m of headroom in the bedroom above.

I am not 100 % certain about this, because photographs can be deceptive. But just scaling the exterior elevation drawing of the UniCat EX70HD2M-MANTGA6x6 in the previous post, for instance, it seems that its Pop-up could travel vertically at most about 90 – 100 cm. Add to this the 40 or 50 cm of the lower-box wall, and it seems that, at most, the headroom inside the bedroom area on the second floor of this vehicle is about 1.5 m high. Perhaps less.

I don't know why expedition vehicle manufacturers who use vertical Pop-Ups seem to allow for only about 1.5 m of headroom in their second floor bedrooms. If this is so, then the bedroom areas in such Pop-ups are really crawl-spaces or crouch-spaces, and not proper walking spaces. Perhaps there is a worry that a Pop-Up that is too tall would catch too much wind? Or perhaps it is not possible (or desirable?) to engineer a Pop-up that has more vertical travel. Again, ideally the Pop-up on the TerraLiner would travel vertically at least 1.5 m, if not 1.8 m, providing at least 2.0 m of headroom in the bedroom space, if not 2.2 m or 2.3 m. Perhaps you know the answer to this question, egn?

But if it turns out that for various reasons the TerraLiner should follow the same practice as the UniCats and Armadillo, with a vertical Pop-Up that travels at most 1.0 – 1.3 m, then at least the interior height of the TerraLiner's bedroom would be no worse off than the interior heights of the bedrooms in any previous expedition-vehicle Pop-ups.

In terms of length, the Terraliner's bedroom is roughly similar to the UniCat EX70HD2M-MANTGA6x6. Scaling the plan-view of the UniCat's second-floor (see the third schematic in the previous post, on the right), the bedroom area seems to be about 4.5 m long.

The big difference is that because much of the second-floor bedroom in the TerraLiner can locate above the cab-area below, this will leave the space above the kitchen free. The ceiling of the TerraLiner's kitchen does not have to be the underside of the bedroom. Instead, the TerraLiner's kitchen can have the same cathedral-height ceiling as the living room. This is only possible because the design is integrated, and so the TerraLiner's second-floor bedroom can locate over a combination of the cab-area + bathroom, in the first 6 m of coach-length.

Whereas in the UniCat and Armadillo Pop-ups, the second-floor must locate directly over the kitchen underneath, to allow enough length for the bedroom area above.



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