Series Land Rover durability

Lots of Series LRs are in use today by long-term travelers. But is this a wise choice, given the alternatives available today? It seems to me that the accounts of travel by Land Rover are studded with engine repairs, axle and suspension problems, even broken frames. All this occurs to vehicles traveling over unimproved roads in third world countries, not to rock-crawling weekend warriors.

Case in point: The South American travels of Belgian couple Audrey and Bernard, detailed in the web site http://www.landezuma.be/ Their reports are full of serious mechanical problems (engine failure, frame cracks, and more), despite a frame up restoration of their Series IIa ex-military ambulance before the trip began. The restoration is documented here http://www.minervaabl.be/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=2188

I know this is one of those "emperor has no clothes" observations. Land Rover is practically synonymous with "overland vehicle." The series LR is a sentimental favorite. But should older LR models be given serious consideration when other options are available?

A related question: Are the 1990s Defender and Discovery models much improved, or do they suffer from the same sorts of issues as the Series LRs?

Chip Haven

This is by no means an expert or scientific response, but I have 2 Rovers - a 1982 Land Rover Lightweight (a military Series III) and an 1999 Discovery II.

My Disco was fairly reliable up to about 80,000 miles and the last 50,000 miles have been a money pit (should have sold it in hindsight).

I've owned my Lightweight for 3 years and while I have yet to do an expedition in it, I drive it almost daily and definitely every weekend. Nothing (knock on wood) has ever broken and all upgrades and modifications have been by choice. It's certainly not as comfy as the Disco, but I have much greater confidence in the Lightweight.

Just one man's opinion, welcome more...

Having owned and parted several rovers I feel the biggest issue with them in general is the owner. Most people who casually own a rover do so thinking it is a rough and tumble vehicle and neglect the maintenance or dismiss a new noise as "a rover thing". Any vehicle will fall apart with that type of owner. Older series trucks are just that....old trucks! Even when mine was new, some 42 years ago, they required lots of maintenance. The design really didn't change a whole lot from 1948 to 1984 so conclude what you will from that! They are good, solid vehicles but are not for everyone.
Jason T.

My defender has never left me stranded due to one reason; fanatical preventative maintenance. Any successful Rover owner understands this concept and practices it religiously. I even take it one step further and will go over “systems” if one part is showing wear. In addition a Rover that has been neglected is typically a little tougher to bring back up to par than say a Toyota.

I haven’t looked over the aforementioned trip that was plagued with problems but a broken frame and problem with axles all speak of perhaps an overloaded vehicle.

I beat the crap out of my old 1996 DI. I couldn't make it stop. I changed the fluids religiously. She only left me stranded twice - once when the belt tensioner broke ($50 fix) and once when the fuel pump quit ($200 fix).

My current rig - a 1994 rangie (long wheel base) - has been a dream to own. The PO kept ALL receipts, including the original dealer purchase agreement!

The key to rovers is religious maintenance. Anything can break on any vehicle under any condition. The funny thing about rovers is the things that break tend to not break on other makes and the things that break on other makes tend to last forever on rovers.:shakin:

I think one of the attractive things about the older Rovers is the relative simplicity. Once you learn the quirks of the wiring, the rest is pretty much straightforward. There is much more maintenance than on a Toyota truck, but if that maintenance is performed they will chug on forever. Most of the upgrades I'm performing on mine are because of the expense of shipping parts up here makes going the hybrid route much cheaper. Then again, performance and durability in my environment also play a role.

That said, I would tend to lean towards a Toyota if I was doing a round-the-world expedition. Toyota's reliability and parts availability makes it a great platform. I would consider it a disposable vehicle, though. There's a certain investment you make in an old rig that makes them part of the family, and even though there are better modes of transportation, they usually get the nod despite any shortcomings. You know what to expect and all of the squeaks and rattles are like the best check engine light in the world.

Series rigs, old CJs/military Jeeps, Scouts, FJ-40s, and old Broncos exude what I call "funk factor". They just have a certain personality that makes the unique, even when parked next to their brethren. Maybe it's the lack of plastic and creature comforts, maybe it's the styling, maybe it's the dents that say "I've been there". Chances are, they have, and are willing to go back.

haven said:

Lots of Series LRs are in use today by long-term travelers. But is this a wise choice, given the alternatives available today? It seems to me that the accounts of travel by Land Rover are studded with engine repairs, axle and suspension problems, even broken frames. All this occurs to vehicles traveling over unimproved roads in third world countries, not to rock-crawling weekend warriors.

Case in point: The South American travels of Belgian couple Audrey and Bernard, detailed in the web site http://www.landezuma.be/ Their reports are full of serious mechanical problems (engine failure, frame cracks, and more), despite a frame up restoration of their Series IIa ex-military ambulance before the trip began. The restoration is documented here http://www.minervaabl.be/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=2188

Click to expand...

Not everyone thinks a LR is a perfect solution:
http://www.turtleexpedition.com/vehicles/turtle1.php

Sure they have their issues however Series Land Rovers aren't much worse than other vehicles of their vintage as far as frames, suspension etc go. The rear 10 spline axles suck as compared to some of their later contemporaries but all in all if well maintained, and reasonably upgraded they aren't any worse than any other vintage expedition vehicle. If you took an original CJ3b or something on an expedition you'd probably run across very similar issues.

I had a 1969 88" that I used for several years for trips in the Mojave. I live in LA and would drive the 200 plus miles to get to the dirt then drive for several hundred more on rough roads. It never left me stranded. I liked the simplicity of a carburated engine and the ability to fix just about anything on the trail with minimal equipment. It's my belief that the heavier the vehicle such as a ex military ambulance, the greater chance for breakdown in suspension, frame, drive-train etc...

I look at overland travel the same way I look at backpacking. Just because you have the room in your truck does not mean you need to fill it. I have a 130 with tons of room but I try and keep it as light as possible. I have been cooking on a one burner stove lately, use a Brunton lantern, took the roof top tent off and sold it and now either sleep in the back or sleep in a backpacking tent.

Keep it light, keep it simple. I dont want my trips to be about setting up and breaking camp.

kellymoe said:

I look at overland travel the same way I look at backpacking. Just because you have the room in your truck does not mean you need to fill it. I have a 130 with tons of room but I try and keep it as light as possible. I have been cooking on a one burner stove lately, use a Brunton lantern, took the roof top tent off and sold it and now either sleep in the back or sleep in a backpacking tent.

Keep it light, keep it simple. I dont want my trips to be about setting up and breaking camp.

Click to expand...

Holy cow! That was just like a conversation I had with a friend the other day. We both come from a minimalist ultralight backpacking background and look at the vehicle as a means to slightly increase what we carry and where we can carry it to. However we both marveled at how people seem to pack everything and the kitchen sink. I'm happy with the few extra luxuries a vehicle enables me to bring. I was really beginning to wonder if there was anyone else who shared that outlook.

A properly maintained and/or rebuilt Series truck is no more or less capable or reliable than any other similarly maintained vehicle for overland travel. However, I believe a Series truck has some inherent advantages over other trucks for a couple reasons.

First of all is simplicity. There are very few other vehicles that are as easy to maintain and repair. Part of this is by design, part of it is the simple engineering that was available when these trucks were built. Like any machine, they do and will break. These just lend themselves well to on-site repairs with simple tools and cheap parts.

Second is experience. Series trucks have been performing off-road and expedition tasks long than, and in greater numbers than any other vehicle ever made except a horse. As such, there are no longer any unknown weaknesses or troubles. Everything that can go wrong with a Series truck has, and in great numbers. Therefore, weaknesses can be modified out of the truck or prepared for beforehand. It is now possible, I believe, to build a Series Land Rover from the ground up that will perform for many, many thousands of miles of expedition use without a breakdown assuming there in no extraordinary abuse or overloading.

There are also, quite simply, less things to go wrong in a Series than in more modern trucks. On a Range Rover Classic that I used to travel overland with, there were dozens and dozens of things that could (and usually did) go wrong just to keep in running. Not so on a Series, and especially a diesel, truck. Count the number of things needed to keep an early diesel engine running, then count the number of things needed to keep a Disco II running. Diesel: fuel, air, compression. Disco II: fuel at 60# pressure, air, compression, injector pulse, ignition, inputs from crank angle, throttle position, ambient air temp, water temp, mass air flow, and a dozen other things. If you lose one of those things, you're dead in the water. Then of course you've got an electronic transmission, traction control and even a body computer.

You want to know the difference between an old Series truck and a modern Land Rover? A Series truck window opens by sliding it sideways, a Disco II has a body computer that controls an electric motor that drives a cable window regulator. There are more things to go wrong with the window on a Disco II than the whole of a Series truck.

So no, you can’t just go drag an old Series truck off the fence line and expect it to carry you overland, but with a little hard work and effort, yes, they are very capable and very reliable.

And Kellymoe and Yorker are right on. Keep it light. Overloading a vehicle is probably the easiest way to ensure trouble on your journey. Restraint when packing as a must. My wife and I and two dogs and travel for a month at a time in an 88”. If you can’t fit it in that much space, you probably don’t need it.

jim

Taking any 30 year old vehicle anywhere is asking for issues,,,,,,,,

Ex MOD ambulance.......heavy slow and abused by the army before being released to the public.

It rains in England.............all the time......so anything 30 years old is rusted out, even if it shines on the outside

even with a re-build I would not choose it as my exped vehicle, just due to its age and unknown past.

even with a rebuild.......how much do you change out, inroder to improve reliability

The defender models means its younger, has improved suspension, mechanicly as simple, only issues is the intro of engine management.

If it were a defender......I'd take a turbo diesel......wether its the older simpler version with mechanical pump or the later ones with electronics......either way if the pump or electrics go your stranded.

the later MOD models all come with heavy duty suspension and usually salisbury axles ( rumoured to be a Dana 60 under licence, some one more knowledgable than me can I'm sure comment)

Reliability depends on the owner...and pre-planning/ maintanance

That Ambulance page is interesting but is there an easy way to translate it? I only had 10 weeks of French in High School and I'm having a hell of a time trudging through it. I'd really like to know what Issues they had in detail since I am going to build up an ambulance as well.

Any machine regardless of which type require a good preventative maintenance program. If this is neglected, soon or later will give problems
My first 4WD was a 1953 Jeep, then a 1978 Toyota FJ40, a Land Rover 109 1978 and now a Disco 1998 Tdi300.
Before I locate any money for add ons in all my vehicles I replace whatever it is needed to keep them as "new"
I believe that if armies around the world select the Land Rover for their use is because the design is good.
It would be interesting to see what type of preventative maintenance are doing the people that complain about realibility of the 4WD.
The second point is that if you get a bad mechanic to do a series of jobs in your vehicle, then things start to fall apart with time.
Cheers

sample error

It's possible that the reports I've seen online of serious mechanical and structural failures in the Series vehicles is a type of sample error. More vehicles in use = more reports of things that go wrong.

I take the point that expedition trucks are often overloaded, and that can lead to frame and suspension problems. What's the cargo capacity of a typical Series model?

Respectfully submitted by a Toyota owner,
Chip Haven

haven said:

It's possible that the reports I've seen online of serious mechanical and structural failures in the Series vehicles is a type of sample error. More vehicles in use = more reports of things that go wrong.

I take the point that expedition trucks are often overloaded, and that can lead to frame and suspension problems. What's the cargo capacity of a typical Series model?

Respectfully submitted by a Toyota owner,
Chip Haven

Click to expand...

For the 109 V8 the payload is 1150 kg
Cheers