What is the BEST....High Altitude Solution for Heating?

[sg1]

Hi,
I have been responsible for mining and exploration projects for many years and several if them were in the Peruvian or Bolivian Altiplano. The highest was at close to 14,000ft. For heating, cooking and hot water we used propane, for electrical power diesel gensets. But this equipment was of course stationary and therefore calibrated to the altutude. So this experience is of limited value for an overland vehicle. When I designed and build my own overland vehicle a few years ago I therefore talked to a lot of people who actually had traveled with their trucks on the Altiplano. For me as a German who usually stays for a few months per year in Germany this was fairly simple. All I had to do was to go to Abenteuer Allrad in Bad Kissingen and the Daerr Meeting in Bavaria and on the campgrounds I would meet literally hundreds of overland travelers and many with experience in South America or the Pamir Highway.
Almost all travelers agreed on the following: Do not use a motor with diesel particulate filter when you have both high sulphur diesel and high altitude. Diesel appliances worke usually when fitted with a high altitude compensation system preferably a second diesel pump with lower capacity. Diesel appliances need quite a bit of care (cleaning) especially if you have a combination of low quality diesel and altitude. In any case they need a lot of electrical power to fire up and to keep going. Propane appliances tend to have less problems and need much less electrical power. Propane is widely available if you have the right adapters and mobile propane tanks (bottles).
My wife and I then tested a diesel cooktop and did not like it because it takes for ever to heat up even at sea level and has only one real burner. Propane is by far the most convenient power source for cooking when, as in our case, you simply do not have the payload to have lots of batteries. Therefore we decided to cook with propane and then it was logical to use propane for heating and hot water too. I knew from my previous trips that propane is available worldwide but few people use big tanks. Usually the locals use various types of small tanks with roughly 20 lbs. and many filling stations are not equiped for filling fixed tanks in vehicles. We therefore have 2 bottles with 20 lbs. and lots of adapters. They are not difficult to get in Germany because there are so many overland travelers and a lot of suppliers who cater to this market. So far I did not have a problem to fill my bottles in various African, European, Easter European countries or in North America. To keep consumption low I have a well insulated cabin (fiberglass foam fiberglass sandwich) and an insulated door between the cab and the cabin. The cab is actually the major source for heat loss.
A very simple and conventional setup but it works at least up to 10,000ft (that is the highest we have been so far with this vehicle) and temperatures down to the high teens or low twenties (Fahrenheit). When we reach the Altiplano (probably in about 2-3 years, (we are not in a hurry) I will let you know how it works above 10,000ft.
Regards Stefan

 

[biotect]

Hi,

I have been responsible for mining and exploration projects for many years and several if them were in the Peruvian or Bolivian Altiplano. The highest was at close to 14,000ft. For heating, cooking and hot water we used propane, for electrical power diesel gensets. But this equipment was of course stationary and therefore calibrated to the altutude. So this experience is of limited value for an overland vehicle. When I designed and build my own overland vehicle a few years ago I therefore talked to a lot of people who actually had traveled with their trucks on the Altiplano. For me as a German who usually stays for a few months per year in Germany this was fairly simple. All I had to do was to go to Abenteuer Allrad in Bad Kissingen and the Daerr Meeting in Bavaria and on the campgrounds I would meet literally hundreds of overland travelers and many with experience in South America or the Pamir Highway.

Almost all travelers agreed on the following: Do not use a motor with diesel particulate filter when you have both high sulphur diesel and high altitude. Diesel appliances worke usually when fitted with a high altitude compensation system preferably a second diesel pump with lower capacity. Diesel appliances need quite a bit of care (cleaning) especially if you have a combination of low quality diesel and altitude. In any case they need a lot of electrical power to fire up and to keep going. Propane appliances tend to have less problems and need much less electrical power. Propane is widely available if you have the right adapters and mobile propane tanks (bottles).

My wife and I then tested a diesel cooktop and did not like it because it takes for ever to heat up even at sea level and has only one real burner. Propane is by far the most convenient power source for cooking when, as in our case, you simply do not have the payload to have lots of batteries. Therefore we decided to cook with propane and then it was logical to use propane for heating and hot water too. I knew from my previous trips that propane is available worldwide but few people use big tanks. Usually the locals use various types of small tanks with roughly 20 lbs. and many filling stations are not equiped for filling fixed tanks in vehicles. We therefore have 2 bottles with 20 lbs. and lots of adapters. They are not difficult to get in Germany because there are so many overland travelers and a lot of suppliers who cater to this market. So far I did not have a problem to fill my bottles in various African, European, Easter European countries or in North America. To keep consumption low I have a well insulated cabin (fiberglass foam fiberglass sandwich) and an insulated door between the cab and the cabin. The cab is actually the major source for heat loss.

A very simple and conventional setup but it works at least up to 10,000ft (that is the highest we have been so far with this vehicle) and temperatures down to the high teens or low twenties (Fahrenheit). When we reach the Altiplano (probably in about 2-3 years, (we are not in a hurry) I will let you know how it works above 10,000ft.

Regards Stefan

Stefan,

Fantastic information, simply terrific.

Just one question: What do you think about a completely diesel-electric set-up? Carrying no propane at all?

In such a set-up, the primary fuel-driven item on board would be the vehicle's main diesel engine. The newer diesel engines all have turbo-chargers in any case, so presumably they should be able to handle 13,000 feet of altitude, or even higher. High-output dual alternators would then charge up a very large lithium battery bank, which would also be fed by massive solar on the roof. And so too, the lithium battery bank would be fed by a supplementary turbo-charged diesel generator. Again, the turbo-charging on the generator would enable it to function well at high altitude.

The kitchen would be all-electric, no diesel and no LPG, and quite possibly the heating as well. The hob would be induction, thereby bypassing the problems you cited with diesel-fueled hobs. As Diplostrat suggested earlier in the thread, the nice thing about an induction hob is that altitude won't affect it one bit.

Perhaps the camper's heater might still be a Webasto Dual Top diesel that could function up to 10 - 11,000 feet. This seems to be the altitude-limit for the Dual Top and similar diesel heaters, as estimated by many contributors to this thread. The Dual Top's "official" altitude-limit is much lower than that, just 2,200 m or 7,200 feet, about the height of Mexico City -- see http://www.webasto.com/int/markets-...utions/service-downloads/faq-heating-general/ and see post #33 earlier in this thread, at http://www.expeditionportal.com/for...BEST-High-Altitude-Solution-for-Heating/page4 . As Webasto's website suggests the Dual Top and Air Top can go above that with further "adjustment", but even with such adjustment the absolute limit seems to be 11,000 feet, or 12,000 feet according to some. So even if the Dual Top and similar diesel heaters could be "pushed" to 11,000 feet, above 11,000 feet they probably need to switch to all-electric in any case, unless they were fitted with special high-alittude pumps calibrated for various altitude bands. More on this possibility below. And above 11,000 feet, any diesel heater that had switched to "all-electric mode" would no longer be powerful enough on its own, and would have to be supplemented by additional electrical heating elements.

So perhaps the cabin heating system should be completely forced-air electric right from the start, without any diesel component? And perhaps water heating should be completely electric as well?

Do you think such a set-up would work? Would it be practical?

For what it's worth, this is no idle speculation. I have some very specific vehicles in mind as precedents.


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1. The Tatra 815 GTC


First, there is the Tatra 815 GTC, or "Tatra Around the World", a vehicle that travelled most of the length of the Andes, including the Altiplano, and that also crossed the Himalayas, probably coming down from China into Pakistan via the Karakoram highway, which at its highest elevation reaches 4,693 m, or 15,397 feet -- see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Karakoram_Highway :




For thorough coverage of this vehicle and its extraordinary 3-year global expedition, please see post #284, and posts #288 - #304, at http://www.expeditionportal.com/for...pedition-RV-w-Rigid-Torsion-Free-Frame/page29 , http://www.expeditionportal.com/for...pedition-RV-w-Rigid-Torsion-Free-Frame/page30 , and http://www.expeditionportal.com/for...pedition-RV-w-Rigid-Torsion-Free-Frame/page31 (standard ExPo pagination).

The reason I spent so much time documenting this vehicle in that thread should be clear: because the Tatra 815 GTC really was designed to be a globally capable expedition motorhome. And it was designed to travel at extreme altitudes that perhaps even more recent dedicated "expedition" motorhomes are still not able to handle.

If you read the posts in that thread detail, you'll see that Tatra 815 GTC had an LPG stove and LPG water-heater, perhaps for precisely the reason that you gave, Stefan: because LPG burns well at extreme high-altitude. See post # 299, at http://www.expeditionportal.com/for...pedition-RV-w-Rigid-Torsion-Free-Frame/page30 :



But otherwise, the camper heating system of the Tatra 815 GTC seems to have been forced-air electric, with 3 KW heating elements, with electricity provided by the diesel generator. See post #300, same page. In other words, a significant component of Tatra 815 GTC's heating system seems to have been electric, and neither diesel nor LPG.

I don't read Czech, so when writing the posts about the Tatra 815 GTC's specifications I sort of "winged it". I relied on my knowledge of linguistics, various Indo-European languages (German, French, Italian, Greek, Latin, Sanskrit, etc.), and Google Translate. So I am still lnot 100 % certain that the Tatra 815 GTC did not also carry a diesel heater on board for camper space-heating. But it seems at least possible that the Tatra 815 GTC did not carry such a diesel heater, and that the camper space heating was completely forced-air electric.



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[biotect]

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2. The Doleoni MAN-KAT


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The second vehicle is the Doleoni MAN-KAT, which you can see discussed on pages 33 and 40 of the same thread referenced above, post #328 at http://www.expeditionportal.com/for...pedition-RV-w-Rigid-Torsion-Free-Frame/page33 , and post #394 at http://www.expeditionportal.com/for...pedition-RV-w-Rigid-Torsion-Free-Frame/page40 :




...


Like the Tatra 815 GTC, the Doleoni MAN-KAT was designed to be globally capable, "world-class" expedition motorhome. For instance, the Doleoni MAN-KAT carries the maximum allowable 1,500 liters of diesel.

But precisely because it has a diesel tank so large, it seems that the Doleoni MAN-KAT cannot legally carry propane as well. See egn's very clear explanation in post #393, at http://www.expeditionportal.com/for...rsion-Free-Frame/page40?p=1615417#post1615417 , and my responses in post #394, immediately following, as well as post #407, on page 41 at http://www.expeditionportal.com/for...pedition-RV-w-Rigid-Torsion-Free-Frame/page41 . If propane is carried, then legal requirements work out in such a way that one ends up with a diesel tank that's half as large.

So because Doleoni MAN-KAT carries no propane, its heater is a Webasto DualTop RHA 102, supplemented by a Webasto AirTop (post #394). For cooking, it has a top-of-the-line 3000W induction stove made by Scholtes, as well as a diesel-fired hob by Webasto:





See http://www.scholtes.com/appliances_s/welcomeDiscoverInductionHob.do and http://www.webasto.com/gb/markets-products/motorhomes/comfort-solutions/cooking-solution/ . Note that the Doleoni MAN-KAT's specification says "Waeco" for the diesel hob, but this might be a mistake, because the hob in the photograph above really does look like the diesel Webasto. The specification makes it clear the the Scholte induction hob is the primary cooking system, whereas the diesel hob is a secondary or "backup" cooking system, perhaps used just as a food warmer?

Now consider that back in the 1980's, when the Tatra 815 GTC was built, induction hobs were not yet a widespread cooking technology even in the West, let alone in Czechoslovakia behind the Iron Curtain. So one wonders whether, if the Tatra 815 GTC were designed today, an induction hob might be a much better choice for extreme-altitude cooking than LPG? After all, as DiploStrat remarked earlier in the thread, changes in altitude won't affect an induction hob one bit. But once the LPG hob is eliminated, then the Tatra 815 GTC's water heater is the only remaining LPG-powered appliance. And surely that, too, could be electric?

So again, I am not just speculating here. The Doleoni MAN-KAT was built recently, and like the Tatra 815 GTC, the Doleoni MAN-KAT is a rare example of a large, 6x6, globally capable expedition motorhome built on top of a torsion-free frame. As you no doubt already know, the vast majority of ActionMobil and UniCat motorhomes are built on frames that twist, therefore necessitating a secondary 3-point or 4-point pivoting subframe to carry the camper box. For a full description of the Doleoni MAN-KAT, see http://www.expedition-trucks.com/brokers/man-kat-6x6-expedition-truck , http://www.doleoni.com/wp/en/ , http://www.doleoni.com/wp/en/man-kat-1-a1/ , and http://www.doleoni.com/wp/#portfolio .

Like the Tatra 815 GTC, the Doleoni MAN-KAT also has a large diesel generator, in the latter case made by Lombardini -- see http://www.lombardinigroup.it/products/diesel/11ld626-3 and http://www.lombardinigroup.it/docum...ooled_diesel_engines_12.0-26.0_kW_English.pdf . However, I suspect that this might be a mil-spec Genset configured by Kirsch, with a Lombardini engine -- see http://www.kirsch-energie.de/fileadmin/user_upload/redakteur/pdf/Referenzlisten/Referenz_MIL_de.pdf , http://www.kirsch-energie.de/en/products/military/portable.html , http://www.kirsch-energie.de/en/products/military/variable-speed.html , etc. Or, alternatively, it might be a Kohler Genset, because since 2007 Lombardini has been part of the Kohler Power group.

It's not clear whether either diesel generator is turbocharged, although one presumes the Tatra 815 GTC's generator must have been, because the vehicle spent so much time at extreme Altiplano and Tibetan altitudes:





See post #300 at http://www.expeditionportal.com/for...pedition-RV-w-Rigid-Torsion-Free-Frame/page30 . Whereas the Doleoni MAN KAT does not seem specifically designed with Altiplano or Tibetan altitude in mind, because it still comes equipped with those standard-issue, diesel-fired Webasto Dual Top and Air Top heaters.


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3. Design with Tibet in Mind


My own specific design concerns are heating and cooking systems for exactly this kind of large, 6x6 expedition vehicle. But systems that will function well above 15,000 feet. This may be quite different than the design concerns of most of the contributors to this thread, who seem focused on the 8,000 - 12,000 foot altitude range, and who probably have smaller 4 x4 vehicles in mind.

Even still, as suggested previously in this thread, Tibetan altitude really should be a significant design consideration for expedition motorhomes that hope to travel extensively in Eurasia.

I haven't yet had a chance to post at length about the emerging Asian Highway Network in the "Fully Integrated MAN or TATRA 6x6 or 8x8...." thread. But to sum up the research so far, China is definitely no longer a Third World country, and neither is Tibet a Third-World region within China. A 38 km 4-lane expressway now links Lhasa to its airport, and the Chinese are spending billions upon billions of dollars (i.e. the Chinese equivalent in yuan) on Tibetan infrastructure -- see http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showthread.php?t=1600517 , http://seekingalpha.com/article/116283-infrastructure-spending-china-knows , http://www.nytimes.com/2009/01/23/business/worldbusiness/23yuan.html?hp&_r=0 , and http://www.nytimes.com/2009/01/23/business/worldbusiness/23yuan.html?pagewanted=2&_r=0&hp .

This includes both highway improvements and extreme-altitude railways, which the Chinese and the Nepalese governments both want to extend into Nepal. The Indian government is understandably less keen, because it has outstanding territorial disputes with China. But even still, it's quite possible that within our lifetimes trains will run direct from Beijing to Delhi, via Lhasa and Kathmandu. And so too, a 4-lane expressway might run all the way from Beijing to Lhasa -- see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/G6_Beijing–Lhasa_Expressway and http://www.economist.com/news/china...ross-tibetan-plateau-some-reaching-lhasa-road .

This matters for globally capable expedition motorhome design, because over the next 50 years Tibet will, in effect, become the Switzerland of Asia, and a key transportation fulcrum. And not just for freight, but so too for intrepid travelers in globally capable motorhomes. Crossing Tibet to get from India to China, or vice-versa, will become as common as crossing Switzerland to get from Italy to Germany.

Put another way, Tibet is not Bolivia. Tibet's economic growth rate is even more dramatic than China's (12 % versus 8 - 10 % per annum), and contemporary infrastructure in Lhasa often looks better than infrastructure in the British midlands -- again, see http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showthread.php?t=1600517 . In the next few weeks I hope to post about all of this at length in the other thread. :ylsmoke:

Unlike the Altiplano, however, much of the Tibetan plateau is at 15,000 feet, not 13,000 feet. And many of the more "scenic routes" in Tibet also locate at 14,000 - 15,000 feet, for instance the G219 highway that runs west from Lhasa, the highway that one must take to reach Mount Kailash and the ancient ruins and frescoes in the Guge region. See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Guge , and for some preliminary discussion of the G219 highway, see posts #366 and #367 at http://www.expeditionportal.com/for...pedition-RV-w-Rigid-Torsion-Free-Frame/page37 (standard ExPo pagination). Again, I'll be posting more anon about the G219 in the other thread.

It's also impossible to drive from India direct to China across the Tibetan plateau without spending some time above 15,000 feet, because the main asphalt highway that runs from Lhasa to Beijing, the G109, crosses the Tang Gu La Pass at 17,162 feet, or 5,231 m -- see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tanggula_Pass . The highest drivable road in Tibet crosses the "Semo La" pass at 18,258 feet, or 5,565 m -- see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Semo_La , http://www.betzgi.ch/en/route-info/w.../pass/semo-la/ , and http://chelseamorning.wordpress.com/...-in-the-world/ . For more about high-altitude drivable Tibetan passes, see http://kekexili.typepad.com/life_on_...ountain_p.html .



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4. All-Electric, LPG, or Diesel?


Now in the other thread, egn suggested that 15,000 feet is really "no big deal" for a diesel heater. egn's statement is well worth re-quoting here:

It is no problem to run Webasto or Ebersbächer diesel heaters at altitudes above 5000 m. You either connect to the diagnostic interface and reduce the fuel amount to the amount of O2 available, by reducing the rate of the fuel pump is ticking. Or you install additional fuel pumps, which deliver less fuel per tick. A friend has 5 fuel pumps installed for altitudes from 0 m up to 5000 m and can switch them on the fly. I also read about someone who has implemented a rate converter that changes the input rate from the heater to a specific rate according the altitude. At least for some of the current versions there are altitude kits available or they measure the O2 content and adapt dynamically to the altitude.

Of course, all the solutions cause power loss of the heater, just like an engine has less power at higher altitude. So you have to size the heater accordingly to compensate the power loss. And it is recommended that you have a second heating system as backup. But water cooled engines can provide this backup without any problems.

For high altitude travel I also thought about to increase pressure in the cabin a little bit. As side effect this can be used to turbocharge the heater to get full power when necessary.

Originally it was planned [for Blue Thunder] to have 1500 l fuel, but finally the space wasn't available in the frame. And I didn't want to loose precious space at other location, just because of 200 l more fuel.

What egn seems to be referring to is the stepped system of pumps first mentioned by Iain_U1250 earlier in this thread:

I found this interesting webpage on a modification for an Eberspacher heater at high altitude, they have 4 different metering pumps for different altitudes up to 5000m. It is in German but Google does a reasonable job of translating the page.

https://sites.google.com/site/whitemankat/about-us/fahrzeug-daten-technik/fahrer-haus-heizung

Also see https://sites.google.com/site/whitem...r-haus-heizung , http://translate.google.co.uk/transl...r-haus-heizung , https://jujo00obo2o234ungd3t8qjfcjrs3o6k-a-sites-opensocial.googleusercontent.com/gadgets/ifr?url=http://www.gstatic.com/sites-gadgets/embed/embed.xml&container=enterprise&view=home&lang=de&c ountry=ALL&sanitize=0&v=b6b44a81eb247b44&libs=core :setprefs&parent=https://sites.google.com/site/whitemankat/about-us/fahrzeug-daten-technik/fahrer-haus-heizung#up_embed_snippet=<embed+xmlns%3D"http://www.w3.org/1999/xhtml"+flashvars%3D"host%3Dpicasaweb.google.com%26 amp;hl%3Dde%26amp;feat%3Dflashalbum%26amp;RGB%3D0x 000000%26amp;feed%3Dhttps%3A%2F%2Fpicasaweb.google .com%2Fdata%2Ffeed%2Fapi%2Fuser%2Fwhitemankat4%2Fa lbumid%2F5614273466992832561%3Falt%3Drss%26kind%3D photo%26hl%3Dde"+height%3D"400"+pluginspage%3D"htt p://www.macromedia.com/go/getflashplayer"+src%3D"https://picasaweb.google.com/s/c/bin/slideshow.swf"+type%3D"application/x-shockwave-flash"+width%3D"600"+/>&st=e%3DAIHE3cCc6H0fT38vRS%2FVn%2F1v%2FAfASFRr0Sq alr7kx%2FLaQ4dMRgGdvyFhztMd%2BaqW0cOlKHhLkpDK2NYFp qfsolX8WxL51AjWGOi5caX8cCQqzSDkSskJTVmS%2Bp8rcJfU1 vGRXZYC8I%2BU%26c%3Denterprise&rpctoken=-4088932420771206846 , andhttps://picasaweb.google.com/whitema...73706030409186 .

I pulled the images and posted them at http://www.expeditionportal.com/for...pedition-RV-w-Rigid-Torsion-Free-Frame/page40 , post #399, just in case this German website ever goes dead. Seemed good to have a visual record of the "multi-pump" solution permanently lodged on ExPo.

So Stefan, would you agree with egn? Do you think that this sort of multi-pump solution makes diesel workable after all, at extreme altitudes?

And yet it is interesting, isn't it, that the Tatra 815 GTC used LPG for its stove and hot water, and electric forced-air for space-heating in the camper, and not diesel. And this was a vehicle that knew in advance that it would be traveling the length of the Andes, as well as crossing the Tibetan plateau.

So I am honestly still a bit puzzled. Aren't there experts for this sort of thing? Actionmobil? UniCat? If a customer makes Altiplano and Tibetan altitude an important design criterion, how do Actionmobil or Unicat spec out their vehicles accordingly? Does such an extreme-altitude criterion make any difference to their designs? Or do all of Actionmobil and UniCat vehicles come pre-equipped as "extreme altitude capable"? Is there a consensus regarding best practice, a consensus that they follow?


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In short, Stefan: you seem to know what you are talking about vis-a-vis extreme altitudes above 12,000 feet. So any suggestions you might be willing to give, for the design of a large 6x6 expedition vehicle that could handle Tibetan extreme altitudes possibly as high as 18,000 feet, and at least as high as 16,000 feet, would be greatly appreciated.

But as always, if anyone else reading these questions wants to chime in, please do!

All best wishes,



Biotect

 

[charlieaarons]

As mentioned in another thread, I obtained a high altitude compensation kit for my Webasto Thermo Top C which is quite simple. It is basically plumbing which "short-circuits" the pump with a needle valve that one opens 1 turn for every 1000m above 2000m.
I cannot say how it works at medium (3000m) to extreme (4-5000m) high altitude yet, the highest I have recently used my heater is 7500' (2300m). But When the valve is open a turn or 2 at sea level the heater sounds different, a little bit like it is starving for fuel.
I don't know the size of the needle valve.

Charlie

 

[sg1]

Hi,
I think all the setups you described are too complicated. If you are traveling in less developed countries for months or even years things will break. For your truck you may actually find a good mechanic. But you will not find anybody who knows anything about campers or rv's even with conventional systems let alone exotic technology. You have to be able to fix the problems with the technical equipment in the camping part of your setup yourself or you use widly available components you can easily replace. Lithium batteries and the necessary electronics are not yet widely available in Peru or Tibet. Conventional lead batteries are.
The simple things will defeat you. The biggest problem for example for our diesel engines was not the altitude. It was dirty fuel and the fact that we could not get cold weather diesel. Therefore the diesel had the consistency of honey after a cold night. Unless the diesel filters etc. were heated nothing would work until mid morning when it got warmer. Therefore DiploStrats proposal to use a small separate diesel tank in the warm inside of the cabin makes perfect sense.
I have a good friend who has traveled through South America for 5 years in his MAN truck. He has a diesel warm water heater with 2 pumps. He manually switches over to the low capacity pump when he gets above 2000 m. That's it and it works up to 4500m. He has to clean it occasionally when he got dirty diesel or it coked. Otherwise no problem.
For cooking he uses an induction stove and all his appliances are conventional 220 V household appliances he can replace in any supermarket. He has a bank of batteries (a lot of 2V lead acid cells) with about 1000 Ah at 24 V which he charges with a 2nd alternator and some solar panels. As a backup he has a 3000 Watt generator. To convert the 24 V to 220V AC he uses a 4000 Watt inverter. With a 12 to MAN you have the payload for such a setup. It is simple and uses widely available components. He designed it himself, he build it himself, he can fix it himself.
My truck has only 3500kg GVW and the batteries alone would kill my truck. But he left Africa quite frustrated after only a few months and went back to the Americas because he was not allowed into many parks or had to pay outrageous entrance fees because of his weight and size while my truck would fit through anything a Toyota would fit.
Keep it simple that is my advice for overlanding.
Regards Stefan

 

[biotect]

Stefan,

Many thanks for that deft summary of wide experience.

The size versus geographic reach question always arises whenever one proposes a 6x6 expedition motorhome. egn, for instance, whose Blue Thunder is a 6x6 converted MAN-KAT similar to the Doleoni, is basically not interested in Central Africa. So the greater camper space and comfort afforded by Blue Thunder suits egn and his wife and daughter just fine -- see post #78 at http://www.expeditionportal.com/for...xpedition-RV-w-Rigid-Torsion-Free-Frame/page8 , post #98 at http://www.expeditionportal.com/for...pedition-RV-w-Rigid-Torsion-Free-Frame/page10 , posts #245 and #247 at http://www.expeditionportal.com/for...pedition-RV-w-Rigid-Torsion-Free-Frame/page25 (all standard ExPo pagination), as well as http://www.expeditionportal.com/forum/threads/11614-MAN-6x6-camper , http://www.rv.net/forum/index.cfm/fuseaction/thread/tid/20933867/srt/pa/pging/1/page/1.cfm , http://www.enfatec.de/index.php?id=54 , and http://translate.google.co.uk/translate?hl=en&sl=de&tl=en&u=http://www.enfatec.de/index.php?id=54 .

Many of these pages contain images of Blue Thunder helping recover much smaller vehicles....... Post #247 also has a video of the same. egn is mostly interested in motorhoming through First-, Second-, and perhaps some Third-world countries, but not driving down mud tracks in the middle of a Fourth-world country, like the Congo. Most of Eurasia is now Second-world, including Russia and China, and that's certainly a great deal of territory to explore. For Blue Thunder's travels so far, see http://www.expeditionportal.com/forum/threads/11614-MAN-6x6-camper , http://www.rv.net/forum/index.cfm/fuseaction/thread/tid/20933867/srt/pa/pging/1/page/1.cfm , http://www.enfatec.de/index.php?id=54 , http://www.poi66.com/show_album.php?album=bt-kola-2007&allow_cookies=1 , http://www.poi66.com/show_album?album=bt-irland-2012 , http://www.poi66.com/show_album?album=bt-schweden-2011 , http://www.poi66.com/show_album.php?album=bt-baltic-2010 , http://www.poi66.com/show_album?album=bt-tuerkei-2008 , and http://www.poi66.com/show_album?album=bt-balkan-2013 .

For an extended discussion of the possibility that there exist multiple "Ideal Expedition Motorhomes" to suit different needs, purposes, traveling styles, family sizes, desired geographic reach, "bad-road" versus true "off-road" capability, etc., see post #80 at http://www.expeditionportal.com/for...xpedition-RV-w-Rigid-Torsion-Free-Frame/page8 , post #95 at http://www.expeditionportal.com/for...pedition-RV-w-Rigid-Torsion-Free-Frame/page10 , and post #133 at http://www.expeditionportal.com/for...pedition-RV-w-Rigid-Torsion-Free-Frame/page14 .

But otherwise, the info about dirty-fuel and diesel jellification, and the suggestion about having a calibrated second pump for the diesel heater at extreme-altitude, is much appreciated. Interesting that your friend uses induction for cooking, just like the Doleoni MAN KAT. So presumably your friend has completely eliminated LPG from his system, right? Also interesting that he has a Dual Alternator + solar set-up, just like Earthroamers, or as per egn's Blue Thunder.

And much agreed, it's always best to try to keep things as simple as possible.

Only problem is that truck manufacturers are having to introduce complexity because of ever-tightening emissions regulations. So, for instance, Deutz no longer makes an Air-cooled V6 for trucks, only Tatra still does. The most recent trucks all have electronics that complexify things to the point where one can't repair it oneself anyway, because one won't have the diagnostic equipment available. As such, egn (who seems to be an automotive engineer by trade, or something similar), was suggesting that hybrid-electric might be the way to go after all, because at least in hybrid-electric there would be redundancy, with multiple electric motors.

It's possible that the era in which one could drive around in a fuel-guzzling but mechanically simple truck might be disappearing, as such trucks become older and older, and harder to find, compared to where we are now. I am not certain about this, but it was a "thought" that seemed to gradually emerge in the other thread.

If you vehemently disagree, I'd love to know why. Before corresponding with egn, I was actually a bit reluctant to even consider designing for hybrid-electric, because the technology did not yet seem sufficiently advanced for demanding off-road applications far away from a mechanic. I was thinking that any truly usable expedition motorhome had to be the simplest diesel possible, with Air-cooled strongly preferred. But egn encouraged me to research hybrid-electric, and I came across Oshkosh's military-grade Propulse system. So it does seem at least possible that hybrid-electric might be both feasible and practical for off-road applications in the next few years -- see post #334 at http://www.expeditionportal.com/for...pedition-RV-w-Rigid-Torsion-Free-Frame/page34 . As you probably know, Landrover now makes a hybrid-electric Range Rover -- see posts #365 - #380 , at http://www.expeditionportal.com/for...pedition-RV-w-Rigid-Torsion-Free-Frame/page37 and http://www.expeditionportal.com/for...pedition-RV-w-Rigid-Torsion-Free-Frame/page38 .

If not in this thread, it would be great to have your thoughts about this topic in the other thread.

Again, many thanks. Your post clarified a great deal.

All best wishes,



Biotect

 

[UK4X4]

works with wood- coal- leaves- branches-rubbish and yak dung.....at any altitude

 

[biotect]

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Gosh, what a beautiful stove!! A Kimberly, right? At http://www.kimberlyepawoodstoves.com/Kimberly-Wood-Stove_c_1.html .

Reminds me of the Rika Twist:





See http://www.rika.at/en/twist/, http://www.rika.at/datasheet.php?IDofen=7 , http://www.rika.at/en/woodburning-stoves-overview/ . But unlike the Kimberly, the Rika Twist is not pre-approved for use in mobile, RV applications.

Here are a few motorhome and caravan interiors where the Kimberly would go very nicely, replacing the existing, somewhat nondescript stove:








See http://www.spokeshavecabinetmakers.co.uk/gallery.htm , https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?...03970098.41476.228080417303590&type=1&theater , http://wpicreative.com/bus-for-sale/ , http://sheepcamps.com/camp-types/legacy/ , http://sheepcamps.com/files/2013/10/2014-LEGACY-SPEC-SHEET.pdf , and http://sheepcamps.com .

All best wishes,


Biotect

 

[NeverEnough]

works with wood- coal- leaves- branches-rubbish and yak dung.....at any altitude

And it adds that homey feel.......

To ditto an earlier comment, electric heating is not influenced by altitude. And having lived in Ecuador for several years above 10,000ft, not all high altitude environments are that cold. As long as you've got access to the amps, I like electric radiant film/panels. It's very simple, weighs almost nothing, and is maintenance-free. The setup in my camper works great down to about 20 degrees F. Colder than that I have to turn on the back-up forced-air propane unit to keep the inside temp at 70. And my camper is quite voluminous. I'm even considering adding more radiant film in the ceiling to increase the output. My next build will likely be all-electric for heating, cooking, cooling. A large PV array and access to two big gensets (camper generator and truck alternator), as well as shore-power access and easy to maintenance-free AGM batts has worked for me.

 

[biotect]

To ditto an earlier comment, electric heating is not influenced by altitude. And having lived in Ecuador for several years above 10,000ft, not all high altitude environments are that cold. As long as you've got access to the amps, I like electric radiant film/panels. It's very simple, weighs almost nothing, and is maintenance-free. The setup in my camper works great down to about 20 degrees F. Colder than that I have to turn on the back-up forced-air propane unit to keep the inside temp at 70. And my camper is quite voluminous. I'm even considering adding more radiant film in the ceiling to increase the output. My next build will likely be all-electric for heating, cooking, cooling. A large PV array and access to two big gensets (camper generator and truck alternator), as well as shore-power access and easy to maintenance-free AGM batts has worked for me.

Hi Neverenough,

Great post, and some interesting observations!

Any product links and/or recommendations regarding "electric radiant film/panels"?? They'd be greatly appreciated.

And what large diesel genset would you recommend? A turbocharger for a diesel genset would be important at high-altitude, right? But generally speaking, turbocharged diesel gensets tend to be on the larger end of things, at least 20 KW and above. So this is perhaps not an option for smaller, 4x4 vehicles. My personal interest is a large 6X6 vehicle in any case, but just thought I should note this regarding genset size, if turbocharging is required.

Do you know of any turbocharged diesel genets that are smaller than 20 KW?

For some preliminary thoughts on the topic of diesel genets for high altitude, see post #27 in this thread at http://www.expeditionportal.com/for...BEST-High-Altitude-Solution-for-Heating/page3, and post #35 at http://www.expeditionportal.com/forum/threads/121929-What-is-the-BEST-High-Altitude-Solution-for-Heating/page4 (standard ExPo pagination).

All best wishes,


Biotect

 

[NeverEnough]

Hi Neverenough,

Great post, and some interesting observations!

Any product links and/or recommendations regarding "electric radiant film/panels"?? They'd be greatly appreciated.

http://eastcoastradiantheat.com/rollnWarm.html

This is the product I used, but from a different distributor (http://www.warmup.com/us/electric-floor-heating-mats.phtml). I don't think WarmUp distributes the product anymore, which I believe is manufactured in Korea. There are a number of different "film" solutions available, as well as a number of thin "matts" that use wires instead of carbon film for resistance. It's important to do the math with electric radiant solutions and most have 10-15 watts/sqft. output. I have two "zones", each tied to a dedicated 20amp branch circuit (they're actually secondary loads via Automatic Load Shedding, ALS, circuits so demand loads, like the microwave, shut off the heat temporarily, which keeps the panel size down). In my case, each draws about 14 amps.

Another option, relatively new, are these, of which there are also several manufacturers and configurations. My next build will likely incorporate a mix of film and panels: http://ducoterra.com/radiant-panel-information/

And what large diesel genset would you recommend? A turbocharger for a diesel genset would be important at high-altitude, right? But generally speaking, turbocharged diesel gensets tend to be on the larger end of things, at least 20 KW and above. So this is perhaps not an option for smaller, 4x4 vehicles. My personal interest is a large 6X6 vehicle in any case, but just thought I should note this regarding genset size, if turbocharging is required.

I know about big (over 500kW) diesel standby generators because we have a few at our data center, but I'm not the guy to ask about smaller units. My camper uses a 3kW Onan gasoline unit. But my camper was designed to be removable and independent of the truck chassis, and I needed a storage tank for motorcycle fuel anyway, so I went with a gasoline generator so I could have a single fuel tank for the genset and motorcycles. As long as it's primed, it starts easily even in subfreezing and relatively high altitude situations (10,000ft).

 

[biotect]

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NeverEnough,

Many thanks!!

This electric flat panel/film solution is simple and elegant, and I wonder why it hasn't caught on more in the RV world? Especially now that solar and batteries have come into their own? This is the first time that I've heard someone suggesting the use of such panels in RV's, although I knew something like this exists in the residential market.

Whenever heating is discussed or described in the RV world, the debate seems to center around the merits of LPG versus diesel heaters. And once that's settled, the debate shifts to the merits of hydronic heaters that work with the engine (Eberspracher -- see http://www.eberspaecher.com/en/fuel-operated-heaters/product-portfolio/water-heaters.html and http://www.espar.com/products/fuel-...t-selection/coolant-heaters/hydronic-mii.html ), versus hydronic heaters that double as water heaters (e.g. Aquahot, Precisiontemp, Hydrohot, Webasto DualTop, Truma Combi, Alde, etc.), versus heaters that circulate air (eg. the Webasto Air Top and the Eberspracher AirTronic -- see http://www.webasto.com/int/markets-.../heating-solutions/space-air-heaters/air-top/ , http://www.espar.com/products/fuel-...lection/air-heaters/technology-in-detail.html ).

No RV discussion forum and no RV website that I have yet come across describes or discusses the electric flat panel/films that you just referenced. Any idea why this might be the case?

Of course, it's not necessarily an either/or proposition, because larger campers often have a combination of heaters. For instance, the Doleoni MAN-KAT described above combines a Webasto Dual Top with an Air Top:

• Main air heating system provided by Webasto DualTop RHA 102, Diesel or electricity powered (1000 or 2000w)
• Additional air heating system provided by Webasto AirTop, Diesel powered

See http://www.doleoni.com/wp/en/man-kat-1-a1/ . And other set-ups will combine an Eberspracher Hydronic with a Webasto Dual Top. So a camper could perfectly well combine these electric flat panel/film radiators with more "traditional" hyrdonic for forced-air solutions.


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1. Heating for Arctic Climates


In your earlier post you mentioned that you still have a forced-air Propane unit for colder than −20 °F (−29 °C).

So I was wondering: do you think that with enough radiant panels or radiant film covering the interior surface of the camper, one could completely eliminate any need for hydronic or forced-air heating as supplement? Or will a supplementary heater still be needed, say, in the Canadian Prairie Provinces during the winter, and so too North Dakota, Montana, interior Alaska, Siberia, etc.?

In Manitoba and Saskatchewan in the winter, overnight temperature can get as low as −40 °C (−40 °F) on several days, and the temperature may remain below −18 °C (0 °F) for weeks. In Alberta, extreme winter minimum temperatures are possible as low as −54 °C (−65 °F) in northern Alberta, and −46 °C (−51 °F) in southern Alberta. See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Western_Canada , http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Climate_of_Manitoba , http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saskatchewan#Climate , and http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alberta#Climate . Interior Alaska (e.g. Fairbanks) can get as cold as −60 °F (−51.1 °C), and Siberia averages −25 °C (−13 °F) in January. See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Climate_of_Alaska and http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Siberia .

Sure, for most people such extreme temperatures might be a bit academic, and even in the case of a "Round the World" (RTW) motorhome, one could organize things so that one spends summer closer to the poles, and winter closer to the equator.

But even still, very cold places in the middle of winter covered with snow can be very beautiful. Just a few years ago I was in St. Petersburg, Russia, in the middle of winter, and the visit coincided with an unusual stretch of solid sunshine for 6 days. St. Petersburg is the "Paris of the North", and highly recommended in all seasons -- http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saint_Petersburg . But there was something particularly compelling about the standard Russian-imperial color scheme for buildings (gold + blue), set against snow. Took some amazing photographs on that trip.

Fairly recently the Turtle expedition crossed Siberia in the winter -- see http://turtleexpedition.com/vehicles/turtle-iv/ . And lots of expedition vehicles are designed to handle the same.


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2. Arctic-Capable Mongolian 6x6 Zetros


For instance, in 2010 Germany's Hünerkopf Neukirchen – a custom interior design company - collaborated with Hartmann Spezialkarosserien GmbH - a leading German coach builder - to create two Zetros 6x6 expedition grade motorhomes for customers based in Mongolia. They were designed to be hunting base camps that could work well in the middle of a Mongolian winter -- see http://www.examiner.com/article/h-nerkopf-neukirchen-sends-two-zetros-expedition-rv-s-to-mongolia , http://www.examiner.com/slideshow/mercedes-benz-zetros-2733-a-6x6-awd-expedition-vehicle , http://www.wired.com/2011/03/mongolian-hunters-turn-a-big-benz-into-xanadu-on-six-wheels/ , http://www.wired.com/2011/04/a-peek-inside-a-rolling-mongolian-xanadu#slideid-120051 , http://www.wired.com/2011/04/a-peek-inside-a-rolling-mongolian-xanadu/?viewall=true , http://expeditionmotorhome.com/luxurious-6x6-beast-from-stuttgart/ , http://www.iol.co.za/motoring/cars/...mongolian-mega-campers-1.1048385#.U-8IEHmSf6k , http://www.autoblog.com/2011/03/25/mercedes-benz-zetros-6x6-luxed-up-for-mongolian-hunting-expediti/ , http://www.carscoops.com/2011/03/mercedes-benz-delivers-custom-made-6x6.html , http://autoweek.com/article/car-life/kneel-zetros-destroyer-lesser-motor-homes , http://www.drive.com.au/motor-news/the-biggest-baddest-benz-20110404-1cwd4.html , http://www.huenerkopf.de/en/allradmobile/mercedes-benz-zetros/galerie , and http://www.hartmann-alsfeld.net/en_reisemobile-a-01.html?PHPSESSID=7bea3c6a13200c8ca047f690126f35d7 .

From the Wired article:

Even the least educated in Asian affairs know Mongolia is full of exotic wild animals and was once home to Xanadu, the archetype for opulence.

Now, a pair of filthy-rich modern-day Kublai Khans have built pleasure domes out of a pair of Mercedes-Benz Zetros, a six-wheeled military-spec vehicle bigger and badder than the monstrous Unimog. These absurdly ostentatious off-road rigs don’t just have an off-road ratio of 1.69, but they also feature bidets and heated marble floors in the bathrooms. And yes, we know the city of Xanadu is called Shangdu and it is now part of China, but we hope the geography trolls will forgive us for the sake of an extended metaphor.
One of the pair made his pile of tögrögs as a shareholder in coal and copper mines. The other owns a brewery. Daimler insists they are just a couple of average guys.

“Mongolians love their freedom, and greatly enjoy excursions into the varied natural surroundings of their high-altitude homeland,” Daimler said in a press release. “The two friends use their unique jumbo off-roaders for multi-day excursions into the Altai mountains, for example, where they hunt for wolves with an eagle.”

Hunting wolves with an eagle. And here we thought a good day of hunting involved a duck blind, an orange vest and a spill-proof coffee mug on the dash of a ’79 Ford F-150.

Do not watch this video if you're squeamish:




But if you're not squeamish, also see https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5wwvPLPntZk , https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TItHEUOXCeI , and https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Re644qgnCtw .









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[biotect]

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Yes, that seems like a very "optimistic" outdoor shower, given weather conditions in Mongolia....


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[biotect]

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[biotect]

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Just in case the relationship between the shower, the bedroom, and the bathroom/toilet seems confusing, the solution is simple: the bathroom/toilet and the shower are separate. The bathroom/toilet opens onto the kitchen with its own door. And the shower opens on to the bedroom at the back of the camper box.


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