New Defender Rage/Hate Thread

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nickw

Adventurer
Yes, the original was a highly adaptable tool, but involved compromise in every task. Special-purpose tools will always perform better for specific tasks. However its strength was in adapting to off-road uses. For example, it made a terrible ambulance, but a great off-road ambulance. Terrible troop carrier, great off-road troop carrier. Terrible <insert task>, great off-road <insert task>.

It's true, the new one will appeal, at least in daily livability, to a wider market, but do we need yet another car that appeals to the masses? There are plenty that do not, yet they exist. In its previous life, Defender became an off-road and utilitarian halo vehicle. It carried the torch of capability and industrious heritage for the brand. However, unless one was of a special breed, you'd no sooner daily drive one than you would a stripped down track car, and that's fine. You might say LR can't afford it to be a limited sales halo vehicle, but the demand for off-road utilitarian vehicles is so incredibly large, that such a case need not be limiting. It's disappointing that there's no longer any modern vehicle that offers that same combination, from the factory, of excellent off-road capability, relative simplicity, and is purpose built to get work done. Our choices are to either adapt pickup trucks to off-road duty, or adapt Wranglers to work duty. Neither works as well as a platform dedicated to both. Bronco and Grenadier may be as close as we get in the near term, but it's disappointing the modern solution won't wear a green oval.
Terrible <business case>, great off-road <icon>?

Hence declining sales and LR iterating the design to what we see today.
 

EricTyrrell

Expo God
Terrible <business case>, great off-road <icon>?
You're either arguing that:

1. The fashion Defender's business case is completely different, thus the products must be designed completely different and the name makes no sense.

or

2. No manufacturer ever made a profit including halo vehicles, and/or relatively simple capable utilitarian modular vehicles, in their lineup.

Hence declining sales and LR iterating the design to what we see today.
Declining sales due to lack of investment. If Ford stopped updating the F150 in the early 90s, they'd have sold terribly as well. Then, if they reintroduced it as badge engineering the Ridgeline, you'd be making the same dumb "declining sales and Ford iterating the design to what we see today." argument.
 

calicamper

Expedition Leader
Again, agree to disagree. It just depends on your definition of the word more. Sure, the old D110 could be turned into an ambulance, tow truck, troop carrier, etc... Here's the thing though: It did all those things far worse than say a dedicated ambulance, a dually-based tow truck, MRAP, etc. As time went on, people started to realize that maybe the Defender wasn't the solution to everyone's needs. I will admit, the New Defender can't do any of those things. That said, you'd be silly to want a New Defender for military service, or to replace MB Sprinter ambulances with Defenders.

In mathematical/visual terms, the new Defender may not appeal to the far ends of the bell curve like the old Defender, but it will have significantly more area under the curve. The new Defender will never be sold as a tow truck, ambulance, etc..., but it will be sold as a 5 door SUV with greater levels of practicality for more people for things that are relevant to 99.99% of the population; in that regard, sure...the new Defender doesn't appeal to that .01% like the old one did. Hope that makes sense.
All true except I bet a Rav4 does the same stuff the new Rover does, only more reliably and likely better too. LOL Heck the Honda CRV probably has the rover beat too.
 

soflorovers

Well-known member
All true except I bet a Rav4 does the same stuff the new Rover does, only more reliably and likely better too. LOL Heck the Honda CRV probably has the rover beat too.
The fact that someone "liked" your comment is appalling. Not sure if you're a troll, or if you actually believe what you wrote. In no world can you even attempt to compare the capability offered by two FWD crossovers to a vehicle that comes from the factory with twin lockers, a low range gearbox, and an optional winch (not to mention the rest of the accessories that are available from OEM). We get it, you don't like the New Defender, but at least try to limit your trolling somewhat plausible point.
 

Todd n Natalie

Observer
The fact that someone "liked" your comment is appalling. Not sure if you're a troll, or if you actually believe what you wrote. In no world can you even attempt to compare the capability offered by two FWD crossovers to a vehicle that comes from the factory with twin lockers, a low range gearbox, and an optional winch (not to mention the rest of the accessories that are available from OEM). We get it, you don't like the New Defender, but at least try to limit your trolling somewhat plausible point.
I thought he was being facetious.
 

soflorovers

Well-known member
Yes, the original was a highly adaptable tool, but involved compromise in every task. Special-purpose tools will always perform better for specific tasks. However its strength was in adapting to off-road uses. For example, it made a terrible ambulance, but a great off-road ambulance. Terrible troop carrier, great off-road troop carrier. Terrible <insert task>, great off-road <insert task>.

It's true, the new one will appeal, at least in daily livability, to a wider market, but do we need yet another car that appeals to the masses? There are plenty that do not, yet they exist. In its previous life, Defender became an off-road and utilitarian halo vehicle. It carried the torch of capability and industrious heritage for the brand. However, unless one was of a special breed, you'd no sooner daily drive one than you would a stripped down track car, and that's fine. You might say LR can't afford it to be a limited sales halo vehicle, but the demand for off-road utilitarian vehicles is so incredibly large, that such a case need not be limiting. It's disappointing that there's no longer any modern vehicle that offers that same combination, from the factory, of excellent off-road capability, relative simplicity, and is purpose built to get work done. Our choices are to either adapt pickup trucks to off-road duty, or adapt Wranglers to work duty. Neither works as well as a platform dedicated to both. Bronco and Grenadier may be as close as we get in the near term, but it's disappointing the modern solution won't wear a green oval.
"the demand for off-road utilitarian vehicles is so incredibly large, that such a case need not be limiting."

Why don't you look up European sales figures for the old Defender? LR sold less than 1500 of them each year from 2011-2016. For reference, Ferrari sells approximately 8,400 cars per year. The demand that you state is there simply isn't.
 

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calicamper

Expedition Leader
The fact that someone "liked" your comment is appalling. Not sure if you're a troll, or if you actually believe what you wrote. In no world can you even attempt to compare the capability offered by two FWD crossovers to a vehicle that comes from the factory with twin lockers, a low range gearbox, and an optional winch (not to mention the rest of the accessories that are available from OEM). We get it, you don't like the New Defender, but at least try to limit your trolling somewhat plausible point.
Possibly another issue Defender owners getting their pressed pants and smoking jackets twisted up too tight. I imagine its rough going wheeling on your estate in your smoking jacket and tweeds.
 

nickw

Adventurer
You're either arguing that:

1. The fashion Defender's business case is completely different, thus the products must be designed completely different and the name makes no sense.

or

2. No manufacturer ever made a profit including halo vehicles, and/or relatively simple capable utilitarian modular vehicles, in their lineup.


Declining sales due to lack of investment. If Ford stopped updating the F150 in the early 90s, they'd have sold terribly as well. Then, if they reintroduced it as badge engineering the Ridgeline, you'd be making the same dumb "declining sales and Ford iterating the design to what we see today." argument.
Neither

If, as you say, there is interest in a 'bare bones' 4x4 there wouldn't be lack of sales, it's a simple concept. You wan't an old Defender, go buy one, they exist....you can make it as simple as you want.

If LR produced something based on a car your example would make sense I guess, which they didn't, so not sure WTF your trying to get at...in it's current configuration it's just as capable if not more than most manufacturers top 4x4 models.

I'm done going round and round, I'm as guilty as you about being silly by arguing this stuff. In my mind the fact remains, Toyota with it's Landcruiser and using your current example Ford with it's F150 have iterated every few years to what they are today which is a LONG way from where they were (solid axles, manual tcase, simple engines, easy to service) and are deserving of their name and heritage, same as the Defender....although with the Defender the iteration was 40 years overdue....

(y)
 
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EricTyrrell

Expo God
"the demand for off-road utilitarian vehicles is so incredibly large, that such a case need not be limiting."

Why don't you look up European sales figures for the old Defender? LR sold less than 1500 of them each year from 2011-2016. For reference, Ferrari sells approximately 8,400 cars per year. The demand that you state is there simply isn't.
I'm very familiar with the historical sales numbers. Demand in the markets that Defender occupied, is and was very high, as evidenced by strong sales of trucks, Jeeps, and other competitors. However, demand for outdated vehicles (og Defender) in those markets is and was very low. In other words, it wasn't a case of low demand in the utility/off-road markets, it was the lack of supply of a product that met the evolving demands of those markets. If LR had got their act together and produced an updated Defender that served the same markets, that kept all its positive attributes that customers loved, and met modern expectations in such markets, then they could have been successful. The new Defender is not that product. It's a product for different markets, that keeps very few attributes, and meets modern expectations of different markets. It's a completely different vehicle; a Defender in name only.


If Ford stopped updating the F150 in the early 90s, they'd have sold terribly as well.
Ford exec: Damn, sales are terrible! We must be victims of low demand in our target markets..
Consultant: Your product is 15 years overdue for a refresh
Ford exec: Navigator sales are strong, let's design a truck for that market and call it an F150.
Consultant: 🤦
 

RoyJ

Adventurer
They're still designed to perform the same jobs for the same people. Spot the difference?
You completely missed my point - which is most buys see vehicles like appliances, not emotional nostalgic purchases.

But I'll play - how about 10,000% more plastic content in the 2020 model, built cheaply overseas.
 

RoyJ

Adventurer
Because the 1st LC’s descendent is the 70 series and not the 200..

And if you place the first LC near a 2020 70’ series LC you can clearly see it.

Same for GW.
So Toyota is allowed to "branch off", and people still love a useless LX570, but Land Rover can't?
 

Copple

New member
I’ve followed these threads since their inception, and have been waiting for the release of the new Defender for 10 years... My local dealership has one on their floor (per-production demo) and I have to say I really like it in person. Like most cars the pictures just don’t do it justice. Interior seemed really well built, grab handles were solid with no play. Their demo model was more of a base build, 4 cylinder with low options. While it seems everyone is overly sensitive regarding the new model, most without actually seeing it in person, perhaps let’s all just step back for a second and be thankful that LR took the time to actually build something fun that we won’t mind taking off the pavement every now and then. Other than the Jeep, I’m not aware of any other manufacture making a new vehicle you can carefully hose out (I say carefully because let’s face it, no one is just going to unload with their pressure washer on the interior). I’ve almost bought an older Defender a few times, but every time I drove one I was reminded of why it just wasn’t practical and couldn’t be an only car for me. This new model will give me 95% of the feeling as the original without all of limitations. And if we take our rose colored glasses off everyone that’s been around the older model knows there were a lot of limitations.

Actually going back to look at the Defender again this morning, just to get a better sense of the vehicle and how it can be optioned. I may wait to see what the 130 looks like when they release more details. But I’m a buyer of the new Defender. And I don’t own any tweed...
 

35xj

Adventurer
I’ve followed these threads since their inception, and have been waiting for the release of the new Defender for 10 years... My local dealership has one on their floor (per-production demo) and I have to say I really like it in person. Like most cars the pictures just don’t do it justice. Interior seemed really well built, grab handles were solid with no play. Their demo model was more of a base build, 4 cylinder with low options. While it seems everyone is overly sensitive regarding the new model, most without actually seeing it in person, perhaps let’s all just step back for a second and be thankful that LR took the time to actually build something fun that we won’t mind taking off the pavement every now and then. Other than the Jeep, I’m not aware of any other manufacture making a new vehicle you can carefully hose out (I say carefully because let’s face it, no one is just going to unload with their pressure washer on the interior). I’ve almost bought an older Defender a few times, but every time I drove one I was reminded of why it just wasn’t practical and couldn’t be an only car for me. This new model will give me 95% of the feeling as the original without all of limitations. And if we take our rose colored glasses off everyone that’s been around the older model knows there were a lot of limitations.

Actually going back to look at the Defender again this morning, just to get a better sense of the vehicle and how it can be optioned. I may wait to see what the 130 looks like when they release more details. But I’m a buyer of the new Defender. And I don’t own any tweed...
pfffft. all that level headed logic has no place in this thread!
 
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