Land Rover Reliability.

[Paladin]

I usually have good luck repairing D1 ABS brakes. The key thing to check are the front hubs, they should be nice and tight. The second thing is to reseat the front sensors. The third is the shims underneath the rubber cap on the front hubs...there should be very little play there (RAVE tells you how to do this). If you tried all 3 things and it still doesnt work, pull the fuse.

Is there any chicken blood involved in this ritual?

And as for not being recalled? The same reason why Chryslers can eat a quart of oil every 1000 miles or my Pacifica needs its engine mounts replaced every 40 thousand miles, ect. Because they get away with it...

Well, that's apples and oranges. Oil and engine mounts aren't safety issues. The NHTSA only cares about safety issues. Sometimes manufacturers will do a voluntary recall for quality issues, but that's only to protect their reputation. The NHTSA only forces recalls for safety issues. Safety recalls are usually called "voluntary", but... what happens is they get a call from the NHTSA saying "if you don't do a voluntary recall, we will force you".

I would have thought the NHTSA would have forced a safety recall for those brakes.

 

[Mike_rupp]

Is there any chicken blood involved in this ritual?

This is the attitude that has resulted in the dumbing down of the product line. Yes, it takes some knowledge to work on the front end of a Disco1. But, alas people don't take the time and expense to either have them serviced or do the work themselves, things break and people whine. The result is that the D2 has those retarded unit hubs instead of serviceable hubs.

 

[bovw]

This is the attitude that has resulted in the dumbing down of the product line. Yes, it takes some knowledge to work on the front end of a Disco1. But, alas people don't take the time and expense to either have them serviced or do the work themselves, things break and people whine. The result is that the D2 has those retarded unit hubs instead of serviceable hubs.

Don't forget the lack of a transmission dip stick Mike. Why would anyone want to check the fluid level?

 

[Paladin]

Because for the majority of users, the dipstick proved to be more trouble than it was worth. (contamination inlet) Obviously there are pros and cons to the dipstick elimination, but on the balance of it, that's why the industry did that.

 

[Mike_rupp]

You are proving my point.

The phrase "majority of users" ticks me off. That is the precise reason the LR product line has evolved to its current state.

The d1 was the result of small improvements over time without dumbing it down. Take a series rover, add some coils and efi and you have a D1. Then the corporate mindset started to creep in and they started appealing to the "majority of users".

Do I even need to mention the lack of CDl on D2s? Fast forward to the LR4 and the Land Rover lineup has more in common with a Honda Pilot than the Land Rovers of old.

 

[Sean VHA #60013]

Because for the majority of users, the dipstick proved to be more trouble than it was worth. (contamination inlet) Obviously there are pros and cons to the dipstick elimination, but on the balance of it, that's why the industry did that.

Other manufactorurs still include dipsticks on their vehicles. Jeep even still offers a solid front axle.

Land Rover has simply abandoned us and turned to making $70,000 effeminate urban mall crawlers with the looks and aesthetics of a modern melted cough drop, the off road performance of a lowrider, the complexity of the space shuttle, and the reliability of a Yugo past the 80,000 mile mark. [I say this as one who owns 2D1's and 2 RRC's].

 

[Viggen]

Viggen, what exactly is the PM on an oil seal? Or a CkPS?

Rob, you and I know that there isnt, smart ***, but if you pay attention to your truck, you can catch signs that it might be on its way out. Leaking a little more than usual? Probably time to replace it. Noises under the hood? Why not take a moment and poke around and see where they are coming from? Could be something simple or it could be bearings in the water pump signaling time to replace. Almost all things that can be caught before becoming something that will let you down and "leave you stranded." Nothing is completely reliable and things do spontaneously fail. There is no getting around that other than just carrying a few (not the expo approved, insane list of "essentials") important spares just in case. An oil seal wont necessarily leave you stranded. I had a rear wheel seal give out on a trail ride. Nothing I could do about that but just top up the diff and drive it home and repair it then. While I was doing one side, I might as well do the other. Did it need it? Not at all but I didnt know its age and it wasnt very hard so why not?


The debate on what Land Rover has become an asinine one. They, like all other car companies, need to keep up with an evolving market or they wouldnt be able to survive. They went upscale as SUVs in general, went upscale. Big ********** deal. Take a Series, "add coils and efi" and you have a Defender. Take that crappy, uncomfortable body off and put on another and you have the Range Rover which was far more appealing than a rolling Erector set. Take that upscale and now you have a gap to fill between the former and the latter. Take that chassis and add a more spacious body and some niceties and you have a Discovery. Im sure the Series/ Defender crowd hated the D1 just as much as you all hate the new crop of LR's. Market demanded more luxury and convenience so take the D1, stretch it out and add more of the above and you have the D2. Market asks for more luxury, overhaul the RRC and you get the P38. P38 not ride well enough for a "luxury" SUV? Redo the whole thing and you get what we have now. Same with the LR3/4, etc... They are just doing what they need to do to survive and, even then, it is barely working.

SUVs arent meant to go off road anymore. As it is, there is hardly any place to go off road due to numerous reasons. Mercedes did it. Land Rover did it. Ford did it. Jeep is doing it. Everyone is doing it. Thats just the way it is. Deal with it. If you want a capable off road vehicle, you need to look backwards, not forwards and it will have to be built. And when you are done building it, it will only be as reliable as the further time you put into it keeping up with maintenance. If it dies, you have no one else to blame but yourself. You cannot blame the assembly man who put your D1s head gasket on 15 years and 100k miles ago when you know that it is something that needs to be addressed and you just didnt feel like doing it. Old things cost money to keep up. If thats too much to ask, you need to get a new hobby (not a personal attack on anyone as we are all like minded which is why we are here but just a statement of fact for those that complain about "reliability" issues on a 15 year old vehicle).

I hardly ever agree with Mike but it is true. Most new SUVs, no matter their heritage or roots, have more in common with the Honda Pilot or Toyota Highlander than vehicles of yore. Why? Its what the people with money to buy a vehicle now want. You dont mass produce a car for a niche market and you dont build one for the used market either. You build one that will sell at that moment. If the market ever demands no electric windows, traction control, ABS, solid axles, coil springs, etc..., Land Rover, along with everyone else will climb all over it to build it.

 

[Paladin]

Other manufactorurs still include dipsticks on their vehicles. Jeep even still offers a solid front axle.

Land Rover has simply abandoned us and turned to making $70,000 effeminate urban mall crawlers with the looks and aesthetics of a modern melted cough drop, the off road performance of a lowrider, the complexity of the space shuttle, and the reliability of a Yugo past the 80,000 mile mark. [I say this as one who owns 2D1's and 2 RRC's].

I think if you poll all new car makers, you'll see not many do. Sure, maybe Jeep does. But does Jeep have a transmission temp sensor in there yet? They didn't until recently.

Yes, it's too bad they don't make the truck we want anymore. But if they didn't make $70,000 effeminate urban mall crawlers, they wouldn't be in business anymore to build the modern Defender.

If the market ever demands no electric windows, traction control, ABS, solid axles, coil springs, etc...,

Oh, they do. It's called a Yamaha Rhino. Sure, it's not road legal and you have to trailer it to the trails, but so many hardcore off-roaders do that anyway with purpose built rigs. You even see it with Land Rover meets. 3 guys load their Disco onto a wedge trailer to make the 2000 mile trek to Utah because an F-350 diesel uses less fuel than 3 Discos.

As more and more areas close to trucks, or all motorized vehicles, the need for a true 4x4 SUV diminishes. So why would the manufacturers make them?

Leaking a little more than usual?

Is it usual to leak at all? If it is, maybe my seals don't need replacing. It's not hitting the ground yet. I guess I have to remember to lower my expectations with the Rovers. I've never had any car leak anything before, save one which has a serious power steering leak. That's it in 18 years.

 

[Rover De Land]

after a rough first few months [2 hyrdrolic hose fails] the discovery has been SUPER reliable.

I trusted it enough to drive me 800m to work in illinois where I still am. I trust it enough to today take it 70m from my hotel to the national forest. I trust it mechanically and the capability. Id have noone to call for help had something happened and I was pretty nervous as last time I was in a national forest my transmission line went and I was left stranded, but hey it was a 12year old hose..

 

[Antichrist]

Yes, the hub changed that much. It's now a modern unit bearing hub. The bearings are arguably higher quality, and don't require service.

I guess it depends on your definition of "higher quality". If by that you mean they don't need service so last longer before needing replacement, then yes, I suppose so. But routinely and properly serviced D1 hubs will last a very long time.

This is the attitude that has resulted in the dumbing down of the product line. Yes, it takes some knowledge to work on the front end of a Disco1. But, alas people don't take the time and expense to either have them serviced or do the work themselves, things break and people whine. The result is that the D2 has those retarded unit hubs instead of serviceable hubs.

The issue for me isn't lack of maintenance.
IMO the fact that they can fail in such a way as to jeopardize people's lives is the result of a bad design.
No electronic component should fail that way, yet the electronics in the D1 brakes can. But there were other solutions rather than going to the dumb hub design. In fact, there are hubs used by other manufactures that have the same basic design, but the bearing itself is replaceable. My dad's '77 Rabbits were like that.

 

[Paladin]

I guess it depends on your definition of "higher quality". If by that you mean they don't need service so last longer before needing replacement, then yes, I suppose so. But routinely and properly serviced D1 hubs will last a very long time.

My definition of higher quality is largely about the seal ability, quality of the steel in the bearings, etc. Question: Can a properly serviced D1 bearing last as long as a D2 bearing? I'm talking, no parts replacement, no failures. I'm under the impression that the bearings themselves do not last as long, people carry spares, but that since they are "easy" to change, people don't complain about them. It's one of those things that people who own these trucks forget about, change the oil, regrease the bearings, change the seals....

Can a D1 bearing go 60-100,000 miles with no seal or bearing failures?

This is what the big bearing manufacturers will tell you. That modern service-free bearings are higher quality, and last longer. Period.

In fact, there are hubs used by other manufactures that have the same basic design, but the bearing itself is replaceable. My dad's '77 Rabbits were like that.

Exactly my standing. Unservicable bearings are good, but they should make the entire bearing unit replaceable for $100 rather than the entire unit hub for $500. Most of my other cars were like this.

 

[Ron B]

SUVs arent meant to go off road anymore. As it is, there is hardly any place to go off road due to numerous reasons. Mercedes did it. Land Rover did it. Ford did it. Jeep is doing it. Everyone is doing it. Thats just the way it is. Deal with it. If you want a capable off road vehicle, you need to look backwards, not forwards and it will have to be built. And when you are done building it, it will only be as reliable as the further time you put into it keeping up with maintenance. If it dies, you have no one else to blame but yourself. You cannot blame the assembly man who put your D1s head gasket on 15 years and 100k miles ago when you know that it is something that needs to be addressed and you just didnt feel like doing it. Old things cost money to keep up. If thats too much to ask, you need to get a new hobby (not a personal attack on anyone as we are all like minded which is why we are here but just a statement of fact for those that complain about "reliability" issues on a 15 year old vehicle).

the truth has been spoken!

 

[ujoint]

the truth has been spoken!

Ditto

 

[Antichrist]

My definition of higher quality is largely about the seal ability, quality of the steel in the bearings, etc. Question: Can a properly serviced D1 bearing last as long as a D2 bearing? I'm talking, no parts replacement, no failures. I'm under the impression that the bearings themselves do not last as long, people carry spares, but that since they are "easy" to change, people don't complain about them.

Well, it's not a real easy comparison. If you're comparing hubs (D1 with replaceable parts vs. DII unit hubs) then no, the D1 wouldn't last as long.

The D1 bearings themselves will easily last 60-100k and more, if they are maintained. That means cleaning, packing and proper adjustment. I got 175k on my '95 Disco and even when I replaced them (when doing a complete brake overhaul/upgrade) they still looked fine. On the D1 you typically replace the seal when servicing the bearings.
A D1 seal failure can happen at any point, but the bearings won't fail if it's dealt with in a timely manner.

There are two reasons to carry a spare. You haven't maintained them like you should so one could fail at any time, or you might get a complete seal failure and not notice it before the bearing is damaged.

Two D1 hub bearings and a seal take up very little space and the only "uncommon" tool you need to replace them is a punch.
A DII hub takes up much more space and is a lot heavier. And even if they had replaceable bearings, the ones I'm familiar with require a press to R&R.

So for overland travel I much prefer the D1 design.

 

[Paladin]

So for overland travel I much prefer the D1 design.

Agreed. You'll get no argument from me there.

But, for the vast majority....