Jeep just released a JL with a payload increase of 500lbs

Dan Grec

Expedition Leader
I have been doing a little digging and looking into this as well.
...
It really must come down to suspension settings from the factory?
Wow, great investigation!

I'm no expert, but I think it's a combination of many factors, including brakes, frame stiffness, suspension stiffness (nobody wants a harsh ride when it's empty), things like sway and track bar stiffness and (maybe the biggest limiting factor) cooling.
I like how your analysis basically proves it's not the tires or axles limiting it right now.
When it comes to brakes we know they put bigger ones on the 392 Wrangler, and they stiffened the frame as well.

There's this great article from a former FCA engineer about how much work went into the cooling when designing the Gladiator, and how that is really the limiting factor of all combustion engines for towing.

I think that article does a really good job of illustrating just how complicated the design of a vehicle is, and how many factors go into things like payload and tow rating.
As much as we just want to say "The axles and tires are good for it", it's way more complicated and more of a juggling act.

At the end of it all, however, I still think the 4xe has a 500lbs payload higher than a stock Wrangler, which leads me to believe Jeep could make a "max payload" version from the factory if they wanted to.
They could just use whatever suspension/brakes/frame etc. from the 4xe but don't put in the electric stuff, and there it would be!
I think the trick would be convincing bean counters there will be enough sales to justify it.

-Dan
 
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kootenay

Intergalacticsuperintendent
I think the trick would be convincing bean counters there will be enough sales to justify it.

-Dan
For sure I think the real reason the Wranglers payload is where it is, is so that if falls under the 6000 lb payload cutoff for EPA ratings on SUV's. This might be a benefit for CAFE fees. I am not to sure how that works or if it is true. So we would have to really convince them (the bean counters) that people would pay a premium. Look at the new Landrover Defender for example, I believe they saw the value in making an "overland"able product for marketing and therefore gave it a decent payload, around 1800 lbs.

-Trevor
 

RoyJ

Adventurer
On light trucks, difference between GVWR and sum of GAWRs is always wishy washy. Appears to be highly arbitrary based mostly on marketing and emissions needs. Remember, GAWR factors in all suspension, braking, and tire loading.

I understand the COG / frame / vehicle dynamics argument, but consider this: on commercial trucks (Kenworth, etc.), GVWR is almost always sum of GAWRs.

Think about how much COG varies - you won't know if the chassis has a dump bed, flat deck, box van, cement mixer, tanker, or wrecker body mounted. COG and load dynamics can vary hugely for a given Freightliner chassis cab depending on up-fitting.

Yet, engineers are confident enough to assign a GVWR = sum of GAWRs. Why does a Ram 6.4 have higher GVWR than 5.7? Makes zero sense as engine does not limit payload. Same frame, axle, powertrain, COG, etc. Only difference being spring rates.
 

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Geos7812

New member
Does anyone know if the brakes are the same on the 4xe. Brakes are oftentimes limiting factors in overall GVWR ratings.
 

kootenay

Intergalacticsuperintendent
Has anyone looked into the 2021 Wrangler GVWR? Rubicon went from 2020 rating of 892lbs payload to 1351 with the same specs and options! Maybe payload is finally becoming a selling factor.
 

SSF556

SE Expedition Society
I am intrigued by the cooling discussion. There is an immense amount of cooling needed for all electric vehicles. Given the high demands an off-road vehicle needs, cooling will need to be very robust.
 

kootenay

Intergalacticsuperintendent
I cannot find a reference to any changes of anything else on the vehicle between 2020 and 2021. Also in years past the Sport model had the highest payload, for 2021 the Rubicon Manual has the highest payload, because of the "HD suspension" and better axles? I am just speculating.
 

Dan Grec

Expedition Leader
I cannot find a reference to any changes of anything else on the vehicle between 2020 and 2021. Also in years past the Sport model had the highest payload, for 2021 the Rubicon Manual has the highest payload, because of the "HD suspension" and better axles? I am just speculating.
Wow, that's really interesting, and not something I've seen reported anywhere else.

I wonder if they're moving some stuff over from the Gladiator into the Wrangler to increase the payload?

Whatever they've done, it's a good thing as far as I'm concerned!

-Dan
 

Vinman

Observer
I could have sworn I read somewhere that the cargo carrying capacity if my ‘21 Rubicon 4 door was 1,350 lbs but the label on the door jambs says otherwise. What doesn’t make sense is the Curb weight plus specified 850lbs cargo doesn’t add up to the 5,800 lb GVWR
331C1BEE-9B63-47C7-9684-74042D17CA26.jpeg
 

roving1

Well-known member
I could have sworn I read somewhere that the cargo carrying capacity if my ‘21 Rubicon 4 door was 1,350 lbs but the label on the door jambs says otherwise. What doesn’t make sense is the Curb weight plus specified 850lbs cargo doesn’t add up to the 5,800 lb GVWR
My neck was protesting lol.
fixed.jpeg
 

kootenay

Intergalacticsuperintendent
I believe it still has to do with options. If you have the factory hardtop, or the dual top group the sticker is going to show less, but the GVWR is the magic number? Not to sure this whole magic number thing is hard to wrap your head around. So is the legality of overloading, and insurance coverage. Its kind of like using frequency mobile radios vs having your HAM and second radio for your Commercial radio license, when one can do both. Is anyone really gonna come after you?

I know some people like to say your insurance is void if you over-load your vehicle, but my limited understanding is that liability insurance is to cover you and your mistakes, even if you are at fault? That is what it is for. I still think people should be bringing less stuff with them, but as a lay person it is impossible to know what your vehicle weighs. I get the impression that unless your vehicle "shows obvious signs of being overloaded" you should be okay. Again I am no expert and these are just my opinion. Commercial vehicles is another story.

This is from the Province of BC regarding vehicles under 5500kg (12125 lbs).
Q. How does a Peace/Police Officer decide if a vehicle is unsafe?
A. Peace/Police Officers will use visual cues to determine if a vehicle is obviously overloaded. These cues include vehicles: • that look unstable when moving • that have a front end higher than the back end (the vehicle is not level) • with tires that appear deflated
 

Dan Grec

Expedition Leader
I know some people like to say your insurance is void if you over-load your vehicle, but my limited understanding is that liability insurance is to cover you and your mistakes, even if you are at fault? That is what it is for.
That only applies to a point.
If you're doing something obviously "wrong", you're not covered.
If you're on bald tires that are showing steel, if you're drunk, if you're speeding, if you drive a vehicle with no lights in the dark, etc. etc.
There are laws against those things, and when breaking the law, your insurance is void.

There is an element of responsibility and negligence, and it's important to remember insurance companies will, be default, find any and every excuse not to pay out.

-Dan
 

Vinman

Observer
That only applies to a point.
If you're doing something obviously "wrong", you're not covered.
If you're on bald tires that are showing steel, if you're drunk, if you're speeding, if you drive a vehicle with no lights in the dark, etc. etc.
There are laws against those things, and when breaking the law, your insurance is void.

There is an element of responsibility and negligence, and it's important to remember insurance companies will, be default, find any and every excuse not to pay out.

-Dan
I don’t buy the whole “if you’re breaking the law insurance is void”. (Not picking on you Dan)

When you think about it, the vast majority of motor vehicle accidents are caused by at least one party breaking the law, speeding, unsafe lane changes, failing to stop/yield, tailgating, red light violation etc.
In regards to overloading, that same statement is constantly repeated on many RV forums but I would love to see one actual example of where an insurance company voided coverage due to over loading. Sure, they may try and the vehicle owner accepts it but has an insurance compnay ever successfully denied coverage if the case went to court?
Shoot, the majority of overland rigs (especially Jeeps) are over GVWR and yet we never hear about them being denied coverage.
 

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roving1

Well-known member
I have never heard of a non-commercial vehicle doing non-commercial vehicle things being weighed after an incident ever in the US. I doubt it happens in Canada either. I think this is mostly folklore. While insurance companies indeed gleefully look for ways to not pay out they can't use weight data that no one is collecting and there is no easy or established mechanism in place to gather. They are not busting vehicles out of police impounds to weigh them after accidents.

Even in the commercial vehicle world it almost never happens because even in cases of neglect there are usually more easily proven tangible things than the weight of the vehicle at cause for the accident. In a minor fender bender portable scales might get used on the scene but nobody is weighing anything that needs to be flipped back on its wheels or has broken apart. They are just trying to clear the scene.
 

kootenay

Intergalacticsuperintendent
The liability section isn’t voided by drinking and driving because if it were excluded there would be no financial recourse for the victims hit by the drunk driver. Therefore, if you are hit by a drunk driver, you can assume your damages will be covered assuming the drunk driver’s insurance was in force at the time of the loss. If you are a drunk driver, and you crash, your injuries and your vehicle will NOT be covered, in addition to the criminal and administrative penalties you will face.

Same applies to being grossly overweight, if it was found that was the cause of the accident your liability insurance would cover your expenses to the third party, however they would not cover your vehicle replacement or injuries.
 
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