INEOS Grenadier

Highlander

The Good Shepherd
I feel, as a pure off-roading machine the Bronco or Jeep will be better than IG, but as an overlanding / traveling machine the IG is way ahead.
Also, I like how open and none secretive they are. They like, "hey guys this is what we are doing at the time, what do you think?. Cool, we'll keep in you posted".
There is really nothing to hide. It feels they are engaged with potential clients and what to know what they will be doing in this or that phase of development. I have never seen anything like this.

LR kept their secrets so hard, so tight that we all hyped up and lost the sleep over what would the Defender look like.
They promised us the return of Sir Sean Connery... and then they gave us Justin Bieber.
 

Beowulf

Expedition Leader
I'm a little surprised at waisting time to try and develop a custom tire. Then say that the KO2 is an option. Seems like a waste of engineering hours and money.

The last thing I want is a custom tire on an expedition vehicle. When, I'm in the jungles of Borneo, I'm betting I'd have better luck finding a BFG KO2, than the custom IG tire.
 

Highlander

The Good Shepherd
This is a good point. Not just the tires, they should start thinking how to make an use Toyota parts such as breaks, disks, etc.
All those places have a huge Toyota presence.

Also, while I have no issue with the BMW engines, why not GM, Ford, Toyota or even Mercedes? Are not the modern BMW engines are kind of complex and picky?
 

Lovetheworld

Active member
I suggest buying an actual Toyota with BFG tires in a common size.

The danger of these kind of companies is that they lose sight of the original goal or of the bigger picture, where there is a limited budget and time to develop a car.
They can make the perfect car without ever finishing it.

I am not sure what this car will do better in terms of overlanding than existing cars?
 

mpinco

Expedition Leader
- 17" steel wheels is what many wanted. Not 20"/21". Enabling 17" is where Ineos made their investment, with underlying braking system technology.
- 18" are optional, purchase time decision
- Not surprised to see partners align with Ineos to offer bespoke product. The majority of tire design / technology resources were spent by ...... Bridgestone, not Ineos.
 

Beowulf

Expedition Leader
That is a good observation. Bridgestone more than likely did all the NRE on the tire at no cost to Ineos to assure they were the OEM tire.
 

roving1

Well-known member
I'm a little surprised at waisting time to try and develop a custom tire. Then say that the KO2 is an option. Seems like a waste of engineering hours and money.

The last thing I want is a custom tire on an expedition vehicle. When, I'm in the jungles of Borneo, I'm betting I'd have better luck finding a BFG KO2, than the custom IG tire.
This is probably just a dumb PR synergy thing. It's probably getting them a sweetheart deal on the tires. If it isn't its probably something to help out with fuel econ or get it to past a stability control thing like the moose test.

Otherwise yeah it's pretty silly to design a one off tire.
 

ChasingOurTrunks

Well-known member
I'm a little surprised at waisting time to try and develop a custom tire. Then say that the KO2 is an option. Seems like a waste of engineering hours and money.

The last thing I want is a custom tire on an expedition vehicle. When, I'm in the jungles of Borneo, I'm betting I'd have better luck finding a BFG KO2, than the custom IG tire.
It strikes me that the Bridgestone option is the more "Soft Roading" oriented tire -- it's still an AT, but that will be the tire of choice for the farmers and tradies who are looking to the Ineos to replace their old Defenders, given the new Defender doesn't do the same sorts of things. Those use cases are typically pretty "local" (i.e. easy access to home, work, and the tire shop in a given geographic area) so a unique tire isn't the end of the world.

The KO2 is the natural choice for the adventure travel types and is the most commonly recommended tire choice for overland travel in general, so that's an option for folks who have that use case. The overlap of this thing being "Built on Purpose" is on the wheels being 17" steelies (as mpinco mentioned).

I agree on Bridgestone doing a bespoke tire seeming like a waste of resources. But with a targeted production of only 25k units per year, there's not a lot of margin in it for Bridgestone to do all the R&D and production of a totally bespoke tire, so I imagine it's more to do with Bridgetone marketing to other 4x4 owners via the Ineos hype than it is about Ineos wanting a unique tire for the car.


Also, while I have no issue with the BMW engines, why not GM, Ford, Toyota or even Mercedes? Are not the modern BMW engines are kind of complex and picky?
Word from the company was that the use of the BMW platform was guaranteed world-emissions ready. I believe they made a comment about this on one of the Youtube videos but I don't recall which one. Why they couldn't get this same "emissions ready" approach from the other brands I do not know.

I am not sure what this car will do better in terms of overlanding than existing cars?

In my opinion, all of the currently available 4x4s are a much greater compromise for a typical expedition use case than the Ineos will be if they stay on target. The "basic" mid-sized 4x4s available here in North America are great for weekends away, but fill 'em with 4 adults and you may well be over GVM and pretty cramped, especially if you have even a modest amount of equipment. Full-size trucks are better on both load carrying and interior space, but the wagon form factor is a bit nicer for long-distance touring (keeps your kit relatively protected and dust-free), and the full-size trucks tend to be cumbersome in some off-road environments.

The vehicles that do really well at both hauling gear/people and off-road performance (both tasks that are typical of expedition work) like the Land Cruiser 79 series and Troopy are fantastic, except their design (interiors especially but not exclusively) are permanently stuck in the 1980s and they are only available in specific markets. The "new" Tourers (Modern day Land Cruiser, new Defender) have fantastically modern appointments and design, but that modern complexity extends to everything else on the car too, which makes them awfully complex for remote backcountry use.

The Ineos has a modern take on a proven design -- the "Fix it with bailing wire or weld it with a couple of car batteries" approach to being "Bush Proof" while simultaneously having (promised) a modern driving experience in terms of the interior, so it's sort of taking the best bits of existing vehicles and putting them in one place. So, for folks who need a rugged, reliable, but modern utility 4x4, the Ineos is looking like less of a compromise so far than the others.

That's why I think (though "hope" might be a better word at this point) that the Grenadier will be better than what is currently out there, because I have to compromise less -- I don't need to compromise on my interior to get a good utility 4x4. I don't have to compromise on fixability to get a modern interior. I don't have to compromise on payload to get an off-road capable machine.

Of course, it's not a panacea -- at only 25k units per year, there's a lot of questions about parts and service but I do think the Grenadier is shaping up to be something right up the alley of Overland Tourers. For me, it's either the Ineos or the Defender as my next touring rig, so I watch with bated breath -- the new Defender has so far impressed me, but it's ongoing reliability concerns (no deal breakers so far given it's a year one model but a few cases that make me raise an eyebrow) and the complexity of its design is leaving the door wide open for Ineos to win me over.
 
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Kmrtnsn

Explorer
I still can’t decide how I feel about the thing. I think it looks decent enough but the fact it’s essentially a knock off Defender/Gwagon It kinda rubs me the wrong way. I also think the specs sound great I just can’t seem to get over the Chinese knock off vibe.
I’d be more excited if it was priced more in line with the Beijing clones.
 

Lovetheworld

Active member
@ChasingOurTrunks Good point on having this body shape + a high GVM. That is somewhat of a small market.
Still I would rather buy something that was a popular pickup underneath (Ford or Toyota or whatever) and converted to a saloon car.

Anyway, if you take a Landcruiser 200. The diesel is not perfect, as I know it will not like the bad diesel of Asia and possibly other places.
However, having a petrol version, it is still a Landcruiser. You can drive that thing everywhere, it will be very reliable, and you can get that thing fixed anywhere on this planet. Because they sell this car literally everywhere. Every continent, probably almost every country.

Because of that, I am afraid the Ineos will not solve anything or fill any holes in the market.
I personally would feel much more comfortable taking a Landcruiser.

Having said that, I also look into other cars that aren't the easiest. I have always driven Toyota 4x4. But now I am looking into two things. An older Cayenne, just for fun, but of course less reliable and less serviceable.
And since I have an electric car, there is a roadtrip I have in mind that would be challenging to do, which makes it fun. But that car will be completely unserviceable once I leave European borders :) (electric cars are rather simple though)
For the Ineos there doesn't seem to be much advantage to doing that, to take that risk. If you do that in a Cayenne (just for example) the reward is a more luxury and better driving car.
A higher GVM for that body type is nice, but would'nt draw me.
 

T-Willy

Well-known member
It strikes me that the Bridgestone option is the more "Soft Roading" oriented tire -- it's still an AT, but that will be the tire of choice for the farmers and tradies who are looking to the Ineos to replace their old Defenders, given the new Defender doesn't do the same sorts of things. Those use cases are typically pretty "local" (i.e. easy access to home, work, and the tire shop in a given geographic area) so a unique tire isn't the end of the world.

The KO2 is the natural choice for the adventure travel types and is the most commonly recommended tire choice for overland travel in general, so that's an option for folks who have that use case. The overlap of this thing being "Built on Purpose" is on the wheels being 17" steelies (as mpinco mentioned).

I agree on Bridgestone doing a bespoke tire seeming like a waste of resources. But with a targeted production of only 25k units per year, there's not a lot of margin in it for Bridgestone to do all the R&D and production of a totally bespoke tire, so I imagine it's more to do with Bridgetone marketing to other 4x4 owners via the Ineos hype than it is about Ineos wanting a unique tire for the car.




Word from the company was that the use of the BMW platform was guaranteed world-emissions ready. I believe they made a comment about this on one of the Youtube videos but I don't recall which one. Why they couldn't get this same "emissions ready" approach from the other brands I do not know.




In my opinion, all of the currently available 4x4s are a much greater compromise for a typical expedition use case than the Ineos will be if they stay on target. The "basic" mid-sized 4x4s available here in North America are great for weekends away, but fill 'em with 4 adults and you may well be over GVM and pretty cramped, especially if you have even a modest amount of equipment. Full-size trucks are better on both load carrying and interior space, but the wagon form factor is a bit nicer for long-distance touring (keeps your kit relatively protected and dust-free), and the full-size trucks tend to be cumbersome in some off-road environments.

The vehicles that do really well at both hauling gear/people and off-road performance (both tasks that are typical of expedition work) like the Land Cruiser 79 series and Troopy are fantastic, except their design (interiors especially but not exclusively) are permanently stuck in the 1980s and they are only available in specific markets. The "new" Tourers (Modern day Land Cruiser, new Defender) have fantastically modern appointments and design, but that modern complexity extends to everything else on the car too, which makes them awfully complex for remote backcountry use.

The Ineos has a modern take on a proven design -- the "Fix it with bailing wire or weld it with a couple of car batteries" approach to being "Bush Proof" while simultaneously having (promised) a modern driving experience in terms of the interior, so it's sort of taking the best bits of existing vehicles and putting them in one place. So, for folks who need a rugged, reliable, but modern utility 4x4, the Ineos is looking like less of a compromise so far than the others.

That's why I think (though "hope" might be a better word at this point) that the Grenadier will be better than what is currently out there, because I have to compromise less -- I don't need to compromise on my interior to get a good utility 4x4. I don't have to compromise on fixability to get a modern interior. I don't have to compromise on payload to get an off-road capable machine.

Of course, it's not a panacea -- at only 25k units per year, there's a lot of questions about parts and service but I do think the Grenadier is shaping up to be something right up the alley of Overland Tourers. For me, it's either the Ineos or the Defender as my next touring rig, so I watch with bated breath -- the new Defender has so far impressed me, but it's ongoing reliability concerns (no deal breakers so far given it's a year one model but a few cases that make me raise an eyebrow) and the complexity of its design is leaving the door wide open for Ineos to win me over.
On point. Well said.
 

ChasingOurTrunks

Well-known member
@ChasingOurTrunks Good point on having this body shape + a high GVM. That is somewhat of a small market.
Still I would rather buy something that was a popular pickup underneath (Ford or Toyota or whatever) and converted to a saloon car.
Fair point on the wagon conversion -- I find my time and money are too limited these days to properly convert a tourer. My current rig, a GMC Canyon, needs a bunch of stuff to get it where my old Rubicon was, but I've not had the time to tackle it (my build thread has been dead for nearly two years!), so I've already decided that for me, my next touring rig has to be as "turn key" as possible. You could convert a pickup, but that would be big $$, and you'd still be stuck with what I would consider to be a "larger than ideal" footprint. I do love fullsizes -- I actually own one of those too and use it for touring on occasion, and it's wonderful -- but it doesn't have that off-road "plucky-ness" that the mid-size footprint vehicles tend to have.

Anyway, if you take a Landcruiser 200. The diesel is not perfect, as I know it will not like the bad diesel of Asia and possibly other places.
However, having a petrol version, it is still a Landcruiser. You can drive that thing everywhere, it will be very reliable, and you can get that thing fixed anywhere on this planet. Because they sell this car literally everywhere. Every continent, probably almost every country.

Because of that, I am afraid the Ineos will not solve anything or fill any holes in the market.
I personally would feel much more comfortable taking a Landcruiser.
I totally agree with you -- the Land Cruiser is still the king of the castle in this type of touring vehicle in a lot of ways and frankly if I could go buy a new Land Cruiser 200 series I probably would do so, and not look back. It's definitely more of a "Luxury" SUV than its forebearers, but I have a lot of faith in the quality and engineering, so I don't think I'd regret it. Where the Ineos may make some headway against it in terms of being a "better" touring vehicle is how accessible the Ineos may end up being -- The Land Cruiser is actually pretty scarce in North America, having only sold a couple of thousand units last year and rumoured to be leaving the market entirely next year. The Land Cruiser is not for sale at all in Canada. If it was, based on the price in the USA, it's about a $100k car minimum which is a bit much for thrashing off-road. That's in a totally different class in a lot of ways -- the Defender is the closest in this segment, and one spec'd just how I want it is still $20k cheaper than the conservative estimate of what a Land Cruiser would cost me, and that $20k pays for a lot of adventure miles!

The Ineos is aiming at $50k, so I think it's capturing a unique market segment that the Land Cruiser doesn't play in these days, and where no other "off the lot" tourer can compete with it's specifications and capabilities. In terms of price, it's more closely toe-to-toe with the Wrangler and Bronco, but it appears to offer a lot more touring capability than either of those based only on payload.

What I really want is a Toyota Defender in the Rubicon trim but that hasn't been released yet :D
 
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nickw

Adventurer
It strikes me that the Bridgestone option is the more "Soft Roading" oriented tire -- it's still an AT, but that will be the tire of choice for the farmers and tradies who are looking to the Ineos to replace their old Defenders, given the new Defender doesn't do the same sorts of things. Those use cases are typically pretty "local" (i.e. easy access to home, work, and the tire shop in a given geographic area) so a unique tire isn't the end of the world.

The KO2 is the natural choice for the adventure travel types and is the most commonly recommended tire choice for overland travel in general, so that's an option for folks who have that use case. The overlap of this thing being "Built on Purpose" is on the wheels being 17" steelies (as mpinco mentioned).

I agree on Bridgestone doing a bespoke tire seeming like a waste of resources. But with a targeted production of only 25k units per year, there's not a lot of margin in it for Bridgestone to do all the R&D and production of a totally bespoke tire, so I imagine it's more to do with Bridgetone marketing to other 4x4 owners via the Ineos hype than it is about Ineos wanting a unique tire for the car.




Word from the company was that the use of the BMW platform was guaranteed world-emissions ready. I believe they made a comment about this on one of the Youtube videos but I don't recall which one. Why they couldn't get this same "emissions ready" approach from the other brands I do not know.




In my opinion, all of the currently available 4x4s are a much greater compromise for a typical expedition use case than the Ineos will be if they stay on target. The "basic" mid-sized 4x4s available here in North America are great for weekends away, but fill 'em with 4 adults and you may well be over GVM and pretty cramped, especially if you have even a modest amount of equipment. Full-size trucks are better on both load carrying and interior space, but the wagon form factor is a bit nicer for long-distance touring (keeps your kit relatively protected and dust-free), and the full-size trucks tend to be cumbersome in some off-road environments.

The vehicles that do really well at both hauling gear/people and off-road performance (both tasks that are typical of expedition work) like the Land Cruiser 79 series and Troopy are fantastic, except their design (interiors especially but not exclusively) are permanently stuck in the 1980s and they are only available in specific markets. The "new" Tourers (Modern day Land Cruiser, new Defender) have fantastically modern appointments and design, but that modern complexity extends to everything else on the car too, which makes them awfully complex for remote backcountry use.

The Ineos has a modern take on a proven design -- the "Fix it with bailing wire or weld it with a couple of car batteries" approach to being "Bush Proof" while simultaneously having (promised) a modern driving experience in terms of the interior, so it's sort of taking the best bits of existing vehicles and putting them in one place. So, for folks who need a rugged, reliable, but modern utility 4x4, the Ineos is looking like less of a compromise so far than the others.

That's why I think (though "hope" might be a better word at this point) that the Grenadier will be better than what is currently out there, because I have to compromise less -- I don't need to compromise on my interior to get a good utility 4x4. I don't have to compromise on fixability to get a modern interior. I don't have to compromise on payload to get an off-road capable machine.

Of course, it's not a panacea -- at only 25k units per year, there's a lot of questions about parts and service but I do think the Grenadier is shaping up to be something right up the alley of Overland Tourers. For me, it's either the Ineos or the Defender as my next touring rig, so I watch with bated breath -- the new Defender has so far impressed me, but it's ongoing reliability concerns (no deal breakers so far given it's a year one model but a few cases that make me raise an eyebrow) and the complexity of its design is leaving the door wide open for Ineos to win me over.
Have they announced payload capacities for the US? Only reason I ask is based on the cross-over rigs from other countries, they are typically a bit lower stateside vs oversea vehicles. I've seen the 1t rating, but assume that is ROW spec.....
 

ChasingOurTrunks

Well-known member
Have they announced payload capacities for the US? Only reason I ask is based on the cross-over rigs from other countries, they are typically a bit lower stateside vs oversea vehicles. I've seen the 1t rating, but assume that is ROW spec.....
Not yet -- region-specific specs are not out there (that I'm aware of). I have the same concern as you do though because you are right, there is a discrepancy between ROW rigs and the ones available in NA.

I'm optimistic though.The Defender's payload is fairly consistent (depending on trim) in Europe and the USA/Canada. Hopefully, Ineos is able to do the same, but we won't know until they are much closer to market.
 

T-Willy

Well-known member
It also bears mentioning that Land Cruiser's capacities have been trending toward weekender rather than touring spec, making Grenadier all the more attractive to tourers who need both off road and load-carrying capability. Note that, since advent of the 80 series, payload decreased from 1930 lbs to ~1600 lbs in the 200 series (equaling some 4Runner specs), and cargo space has decreased from 97 cubic feet to 83 cubic feet today (less than 4runner). That same time period has seen Land Cruiser's gentrification; inflation-adjusted MSRP has increased by nearly 60 percent. Grenadier will be very hard to argue with if it does marry a one-ton payload to a 50K price point. That's a tremendous value for a combination of capabilities that, except for Defender (and its reliability questions), are otherwise unavailable in a touring wagon in the U.S. market.
 
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