Four Wheel Camper ‘Project M’

[RAM5500 CAMPERTHING]

Curious about the dust problem I see people citing here and on other sites.

In a regular truck canopy, people say dust is a problem. How does the dust get in exactly? The tailgate?

Yes! Most trucks with tailgates has decent gaps between the tail gate and the edges of the bed. This is to account for flex and movement. This is also a vaccum that brings in dust.

I tried for 2 years every trick possible to see that gap on my Tundra with a top and the issue always remained. Because that are is always moving, and a lot. Whatever i tried basically got destroyed withing months.

 

[socceronly]

So do the topper type campers deal with the dust?

Perhaps not practical, but I wonder if a positive pressure while the car is on pushing air in through a filter would reduce the dust getting in.

 

[AbleGuy]

So do the topper type campers deal with the dust?

Perhaps not practical, but I wonder if a positive pressure while the car is on pushing air in through a filter would reduce the dust getting in.

Hmmmmm, IIFC, an old wives tale was that the oldest Alaskan campers had a very small window in the top front so you could leave it open while driving. Thus when you’re moving forward, air would forcefully enter the camper and allegedly create a positive seal. That way, the minute gaps in the weatherstripping between the moveable top and the stationary bottom of the camper wouldn’t cause dust to be sucked up into the camper.

Or course this tale of a clever, early adaptation of beneficial aerodynamic strategies could also just have been folk lore, or perhaps even the confused mis-memories of an aging brain. Anyway....

 

[moveinon]

I hate to be a nay sayer here, but I just don’t understand. I bought a used fully equipped Fleet for less than $13,000 with every piece of equipment that was offered in the year it was made after looking for 4 months. It was just like new, and I have seen other similarly equipped units for sale for somewhat similar price since although you have to look well, quick and travel to get. I use my truck as a truck regularly, meaning I take it off and put it on to use the truck. It takes me 15 minutes to take it off and 20 minutes to put it on. I have had two toppers in the past and a tonneau cover that all let substantial dust in because of the gaps that exist around the tailgate and the seal. Even if it seals to the tailgate, the tailgate itself lets dust in. I assume that people who want these campers travel on dirt and gravel roads. Why would you choose this with dust, no heater, vent fans, sink, hot water, stove, solar, refrigerator, battery and electrical or seating and lack of full insulation in the cold for almost $10,000 since you can not buy used. And then most posts build out the inside to make it more comfortable adding considerable to the cost and their time. My guess is that it takes a person about as long to clear the inside of the M for truck use after they have built out what they want as it takes me to offload my camper and maybe almost as much storage space. So tell me, what am I missing, why would someone buy the project M?

 

[TMOD]

This is pretty much the conclusion that I came to. I was very close to putting down a deposit on the M earlier this year, but I just couldn't get past the cost vs. what you are actually getting. At $8995 (then, now $9295) it seemed expensive but I was considering just biting the bullet and ordering one. I talked with the dealer several times and even had a Zoom walkthrough of a model on their floor. My final purchase order included many hidden costs (as someone stated above). There was a Doc fee, Destination charge, and Installation fee. All of this made a very basic camper (I had the thermal pack and 1 window as the only upgrades) come in at just under $13,000. That of course didn't include a mattress, which FWC wants to charge you another $900 for.

When I saw the final price, I backed out. I understand they are in business to make money and I am all for that, but it just seemed like way too much for what you are getting. I still may go with a Hawk Shell model or keep looking at other manufacturers.
All of the add on fees just drove the price up beyond what I was comfortable paying for what is essentially a truck topper.

 

[socceronly]

I hate to be a nay sayer here, but I just don’t understand. I bought a used fully equipped Fleet for less than $13,000 with every piece of equipment that was offered in the year it was made after looking for 4 months. It was just like new, and I have seen other similarly equipped units for sale for somewhat similar price since although you have to look well, quick and travel to get. I use my truck as a truck regularly, meaning I take it off and put it on to use the truck. It takes me 15 minutes to take it off and 20 minutes to put it on. I have had two toppers in the past and a tonneau cover that all let substantial dust in because of the gaps that exist around the tailgate and the seal. Even if it seals to the tailgate, the tailgate itself lets dust in. I assume that people who want these campers travel on dirt and gravel roads. Why would you choose this with dust, no heater, vent fans, sink, hot water, stove, solar, refrigerator, battery and electrical or seating and lack of full insulation in the cold for almost $10,000 since you can not buy used. And then most posts build out the inside to make it more comfortable adding considerable to the cost and their time. My guess is that it takes a person about as long to clear the inside of the M for truck use after they have built out what they want as it takes me to offload my camper and maybe almost as much storage space. So tell me, what am I missing, why would someone buy the project M?

Well for me, I would think it was weight. I can put this on a F150 shorty without even thinking about it. An unloaded hawk is 1100 pounds vs under 400 which will work for all the folks driving tacos or rangers.

On my outback we have to pick if we are hiking or biking. Can't leave bikes on the rack anymore at trailheads, they will be gone. I can't see getting multiple bikes into a built out model, perhaps you can, not sure.

I think there is also an appeal that leans towards the pure utility of it. Bolting stuff on the sides ect....

The other thing to consider is not everyone has a place to take it off and leave it.

If I was going to live in it, or stay in it for really long periods of time, I would go the route you are suggesting for sure.

 

[dnorrell]

I still don't understand how they don't include the bed/mattress as standard equipment at their rather generous starting price point. Without the bed/mattress, I don't understand the point of the Project M?

 

[jadmt]

you don't have to understand it but they are selling them as fast as they can make them with no end in sight. Covid evidently causes brain damage because people are lining up to wait for them...I see used fleets and ravens etc for stupid prices.

 

[john61ct]

Yes in a free market you cannot say "too expensive"

unless their unsold inventory is piling up.

Too expensive for you maybe, your choice to look elsewhere or DIY or do without.

But the rational seller will charge what the market will bear.

Expanding production capacity may not necessarily be the right call

skimming the cream of the market, selling only to people with money to burn

leaving the lower margin higher volume headaches to others

is often the way to optimize profits.

So long as you maintain top quality over time, defend your niche.

 

[dnorrell]

My comment was mostly rhetorical in nature as I fully understand they are clearly selling them faster than they can make them. When you compare the FWC against the M competitors in this space--Vagabond, GFC, OVRLND, AT, Super Pacific, etc.--the FWC product comes in at the top of the price range (ok, the AT Atlas is $305 more *before* adding the bed option to the M) but is the only one not to include a sleeping surface as standard, which I'm inclined to believe is pretty clutch when I'm looking for a "camper". I don't think we can make the argument that the M has better construction/quality than all the other options, so it really comes down to form factor and brand. The FWC brand awareness has really blossomed in the past 5+ years, in part due to the mobile/vanlife trends, so that probably accounts for part of the premium. The form factor with additional head space over cab is also nice and shared by the OVRLND and Atlas, and for that I would expect to pay more than for something like the Summit or GFC. Granted, this is just my opinion, and I certainly don't wish to offend, but it just feels like the end result of what FWC has in the M wasn't fully baked. To be at the top of the price spectrum has me just scratching my chin.

Let me add that I really like the FWC brand. I had a 2017 Hawk shell with side dinette and furnace on my previous Power Wagon. I used it mainly for a mobile office because we travel full time and the extra space outside of our then tiny trailer was really nice. When we upgraded our travel trailer, I sold the FWC for about what I paid for it, which was also nice. But now, as I'm in the market for something lighter and more versatile for the new PW, I ended up having to rule out the M after looking at other options. I do think the pandemic has changed people's priorities and perspectives. Travel has shifted to domestic destinations and the idea of "home" has shifted when working from home no longer requires the same geographic proximity to an office. So, demand for anything "camper" has gone way up, but I do wonder what the used market will look like in a few years time. There will certainly be more options, and that's always a good thing!

 

[TMOD]

I bought a used fully equipped Fleet for less than $13,000 with every piece of equipment that was offered in the year it was made after looking for 4 months. It was just like new, and I have seen other similarly equipped units for sale for somewhat similar price since although you have to look well, quick and travel to get.

If you don't mind sharing, where are you finding barely used FWC slide-ins for $13k?
Because I would travel for that deal.

 

[moveinon]

TMOD, I knew what two models that would work for me and put in some work when I was looking. Asked on Wonder the West and monitored their for sale listings, Looked on CL at least twice a day nationally for four months. Checked RV trader, the local dealer and other places and rigged my truck ready when one was for sale to be able to immediately respond. Was the first to call the seller, did not negotiate the price and drove to Colorado from Oregon the next week to pick it up. WtW has a section that lists 4WC for sale and they have had a few campers for sale for a similar price since I bought mine. As you may already know any 4WC at a reasonable price sells really quick, usually within hours not days so you have to monitor the sale sites a lot more frequently than I have ever done looking for anything else. I can sure see how they hold their price. They may not be the most modern or fancy camper, but in about 70,000 miles both on and off road on mine the only single repair I have had to do was replace the battery this year.

 

[Spencer for Hire]

My comment was mostly rhetorical in nature as I fully understand they are clearly selling them faster than they can make them. When you compare the FWC against the M competitors in this space--Vagabond, GFC, OVRLND, AT, Super Pacific, etc.--the FWC product comes in at the top of the price range (ok, the AT Atlas is $305 more *before* adding the bed option to the M) but is the only one not to include a sleeping surface as standard, which I'm inclined to believe is pretty clutch when I'm looking for a "camper". I don't think we can make the argument that the M has better construction/quality than all the other options, so it really comes down to form factor and brand. The FWC brand awareness has really blossomed in the past 5+ years, in part due to the mobile/vanlife trends, so that probably accounts for part of the premium. The form factor with additional head space over cab is also nice and shared by the OVRLND and Atlas, and for that I would expect to pay more than for something like the Summit or GFC. Granted, this is just my opinion, and I certainly don't wish to offend, but it just feels like the end result of what FWC has in the M wasn't fully baked. To be at the top of the price spectrum has me just scratching my chin.

Let me add that I really like the FWC brand. I had a 2017 Hawk shell with side dinette and furnace on my previous Power Wagon. I used it mainly for a mobile office because we travel full time and the extra space outside of our then tiny trailer was really nice. When we upgraded our travel trailer, I sold the FWC for about what I paid for it, which was also nice. But now, as I'm in the market for something lighter and more versatile for the new PW, I ended up having to rule out the M after looking at other options. I do think the pandemic has changed people's priorities and perspectives. Travel has shifted to domestic destinations and the idea of "home" has shifted when working from home no longer requires the same geographic proximity to an office. So, demand for anything "camper" has gone way up, but I do wonder what the used market will look like in a few years time. There will certainly be more options, and that's always a good thing!

What travel trailer did you end up with?

 

[Spencer for Hire]

I still don't understand how they don't include the bed/mattress as standard equipment at their rather generous starting price point. Without the bed/mattress, I don't understand the point of the Project M?

They included the mattress when they first rolled them out. Then with the demand they made you pay for it.

 

[dnorrell]

What travel trailer did you end up with?

At the risk of coming off as a bit of a snob, I'll admit we ended up with a 2019 Airstream Flying Cloud 26RB Twin, which is a total mouthful. We picked it up in April of 2019 and really have loved the new digs after having dragged it all over the west these past 18 months or so. The plan for this past summer was Alaska, but that obviously got bumped due to border closures, but that's ok. This particular floor plan is perfect for us because of the large U-shape dinette that we sleep on each night. My daughter, six, gets the bedroom and she loves all the windows. It's also really nice to have a decent bathroom again, though we did install a composting toilet for more flexibility. I've upgraded to a couple of Trojan 6V batteries up front and added 400w of solar on roof so that we really are very self-sufficient and comfortable.

It was a BIG change over the little 17' Casita, but I loved our time in that small trailer. We went to the Casita after a year in a 43' diesel pusher that had WAY too many problems and limitations. We craved simplicity and the Casita taught us many valuable lessons in the beauty of getting by with less. We gave up a bathroom so that the kid could have her own bunk / space and I wouldn't have changed a thing. Looking back, I've clearly gone soft because I don't really know how we managed it for so long as a full-time home-on-wheels. I think it helped that my daughter was younger and quite a bit smaller. The Airstream, of course, is not perfect and some of the compromises are more painful than others (they aren't cheap and all the aluminum / single pane windows sort of suck in winter). Nonetheless, it is our happy home and we really enjoy the clean/simple aesthetics, the windows and feeling of openness, and the still-manageable size at 26 feet. For an RV, they are pretty well built, but these things still come off an assembly line where people should probably be paid a bit more for their time; mistakes are made and corners are cut. That said, all our problems have been things I could sort out myself (*knocks on wood lap desk), and that means a lot to me. In the year we owned the Class A, I think we lost a month or more to waiting for major repairs in various states.

I think that was probably way more of an answer than you actually wanted. Sorry about that - I'm just pretty passionate about travel and mobile living. We are going on our sixth year and are still excited about all the places we haven't yet explored. Cheers!