Destination Unknown - a 1997 F350 build

[pappawheely]

First off, having worked as a design engineer in the automotive aftermarket, I have to tell you that factory tolerances are huge. In order to make parts that will fit on ALL trucks, sometimes you will have big gaps on certain trucks. We had to do test fits on several trucks until we felt comfortable releasing a new kit. Some trucks from the factory have tolerances that would make a framer blush. In order to measure for bolt stretch, you need precision measuring tools like a depth gage or calipers. You would have had to measure the bolts before you installed them. If you are using red loctite, chances are it did not come loose. The bolts that failed on me were quality grade 8 bolts, but nowadays that doesn't mean much. I've also had grade 9 bolts fail. Make sure you find out the proper torque value for the bolts you are using and use a torque wrench. http://www.engineershandbook.com/Tables/torque.htm

 

[Chorky]

First off, having worked as a design engineer in the automotive aftermarket, I have to tell you that factory tolerances are huge. In order to make parts that will fit on ALL trucks, sometimes you will have big gaps on certain trucks. We had to do test fits on several trucks until we felt comfortable releasing a new kit. Some trucks from the factory have tolerances that would make a framer blush. In order to measure for bolt stretch, you need precision measuring tools like a depth gage or calipers. You would have had to measure the bolts before you installed them. If you are using red loctite, chances are it did not come loose. The bolts that failed on me were quality grade 8 bolts, but nowadays that doesn't mean much. I've also had grade 9 bolts fail. Make sure you find out the proper torque value for the bolts you are using and use a torque wrench. http://www.engineershandbook.com/Tables/torque.htm

Well I can't gauge the bolts because they've already been on the truck a while, and having been in the process of moving my depth gauge and calipers were left for the time being. So I will be ordering a replacement set of bolts from sky here probably tomorrow as a precaution to throw in the truck before tinkering in case some break. As for the red locktite. Upon original install, red locktite was put on, and the bolts did in fact come loose. After about 3,500 miles during a field inspection I found one of the nuts could be rotated by fingers, yet they were torqued originally, and rechecked after a few hundred miles. So, retightened, they came loose a second time (this was sometime in September). So more locktite, and hard rattling with a 1/2", which this time forced the frame to bend to the shape of the bracket. That action may have stretched the bolts; however, due to clunking reoccurrence, I am suspect again of a third time of loosening. Concerning for sure. I have not had the chance to check them by hand yet, but see no visible signs of movement as before. However, some interesting piece of information when chatting with a local shop to my new home, is that incorrect springs could be the culprit of the space between spring and shackle (but not loosening of bolts), which is common sense; however, I had not realized prior that SD springs are available in two different widths at the shackle mounts even with the same code - so more research into that must be taken as well. Biggest concern right now is safety since it's my only rig, and finding a good way to prevent things from constantly loosening after a few thousand miles.

Thanks for the link! I've seen that before somewhere else but couldn't remember where. Great information!!

 

[Seabass]

To somewhat validate Pappa’s claim.....I drove a second gen dodge with a cummins for a dozen years or more. I was looking into coil spring spacers back when leveling kits weren’t really all that popular yet. No joke- I ran across coil spring spacers that were up to 1” thick because Chrystler would let a truck roll off the assembly line that sat as much as 1” low one one side. And so those spacers were sold individually- not in pairs. That was the last Dodge I owned. Not saying I wouldn’t own another.....Power Wagons are heckin’ cool!!!

 

[Chorky]

To somewhat validate Pappa’s claim.....I drove a second gen dodge with a cummins for a dozen years or more. I was looking into coil spring spacers back when leveling kits weren’t really all that popular yet. No joke- I ran across coil spring spacers that were up to 1” thick because Chrystler would let a truck roll off the assembly line that sat as much as 1” low one one side. And so those spacers were sold individually- not in pairs. That was the last Dodge I owned. Not saying I wouldn’t own another.....Power Wagons are heckin’ cool!!!

Wow that's crazy. I honestly have never experienced anything like that before...or at least noticed it I suppose.

A few bolts were somewhat loose, but not enough to cause a clunk, or so I think. But I only have hand tools at the moment. I did notice somethign interesting though. The rear shackle of the right front spring. Where the thru-bolt attaches the spring to the shackle. It would almost appear as if the bolt is bent, but rather I think it is the gromet that is already failing, and causing the spring to twist. In other words (without a picture) the outside portion of the spring is pushed close to the bolt, and thus touching (and rubbing causing minor damage) the actual shackle. I am wondering if this is being caused because of the excess gap between spring and shackle, allowing things to move more than they should. But after tightening and checking all bolts front and rear, still no clue what is causing the clunk. Body mounts have been checked and are tight with no visible signs of movement; however, the left front (rad) body mount is cracked bad - so they all problaby need to be replaced soon.

 

[Chorky]

Little exploring today.

 

[Chorky]

 

[Chorky]

Not a happy camper....

For the good of the public to consider their own options.... So upon returning home and hearing more clunking and steering rattle, again, decided to poke around again. Something has to be showing a sign somewhere...but as usual nothing obvious. Anywhoo. Now I have spotted another problem. Upon looking behind the rotors to the spindle I, have discovered the spindle nuts on the drivers side are loose. More than just loose. Yes, spindle nuts. 3 of the 5 were not tight. Not even close. About 1/2" backed off. I'm beginning to have serious doubts about the shop I hired for the suspension work last year despite their excellent reviews and what seems to be up front knowledge. This is a serious problem. They appear to have never been tightened after the axle work as the threads are dusty and dirty. I'm very lucky that I have not had a major accident all this time considering where I drive. Additionally, I noticed the axles are sliding what seems to be more than spec. I don't recall what spec is, but the outer axles on both sides slide sideways about 1", being stopped only by the outer hub, and inner axle housing.

This raises again the concern that I had brought up a page ago. Due to my job, relying on a quality, yet simple, vehicle is critical. And I am quickly loosing trust in this truck, granted, it's not the truck's fault. However, if after rebuilding nearly the entire truck for optimum reliability, and such problems seem to be rearing ugly heads, the ability to repair such a problem remotely is low due to the amount of tools required vs. the tools and location I have at the moment. I may be seriously considering other vehicle options.

 

[pappawheely]

There is only one spindle nut. Where are these nuts located? Do you mean lug nuts?

 

[Seabass]

Chorky....sad to hear you’ve had all these problems. I’m always amazed at the luck one person has versus the luck of another. You’ve taken a good route to upgrade your truck to something you’d be happy with. The only thing I can offer is that most of your problems are somebody else’s fault. Since you hired much of the work done by someone else you have no way of knowing what was done properly-and what wasn’t. Not till problems occur. I’m confident that if you keep going you will work it out. You’ll finally get the bugs gone. And a loose hub can absolutely “clunk.” You say you want a dependable platform that is easy to repair and mostly problem free. I say you still have it. You can start over.....but you won’t be much better off. Here’s some hard advice- and I mean no offense in offering it. Please don’t take me wrong. You started out with one of the most usable and dependable platforms that there is. From the factory. Period. You’ve made a lot of changes to that platform. So now you get to work bugs out. It doesn’t matter what you start with-pick a brand. If you modify it much and don’t do virtually all the work yourself you’ll be in the same shape. The guy at the shop— it ain’t his truck. He don’t care. It’s yours. It’s difficult to find a shop that will care like you do. They do exist. Now I know that time, and specialty tools can limit what the average truck owner can do. I rebuilt both my trucks. All of it. Now.....it was slow and tedious. I had to buy and borrow some tools. The shop..... it just did my alignment. So I know first hand FOR SURE how every part was put on, how it fit together, and if it fit properly. I also purposely kept stuff in a basically stock configuration. More or less. The stuff that was made very different from stock....it took some messing around and aggravation to get lined out. It’s just how it is. That truck will sell easy. It’s very nice and has a wonderful parts list. But considers this....Don’t quit. There’s a lot of stuff that is working good. Maybe you check that other hub and spindle nut. Get on the phone with sky and figure out what went wrong. Maybe they can give assistance yet. Probably need to put washers against the springs it make em’ tight. One thing at a time and you’ll end up with what you were after. I realize it’s a little late. But starting over ain’t gonna be any faster. You’ve got great tastes, and I can see that you’ve studied hard to get reputable upgrades. You’re almost there. Even if it doesn’t seem like it. With a few basic tools you can quickly verify the front end and feel confident. But I also take you to be the kind of guy that will come out just fine if you decide to sell the old truck and start over. Who could blame you. There’s other trucks out there that are great. They are capable and dependable. But I still think you already have one. Just my overbearing .02. Again - I mean no offense or criticism to you in any way. You’re just trying to figure it out. But that’s what these forums and build threads are about. Just good ole’ boys offering up a little advice, help, and encouragement to one another. Good luck with whatever you decide.

 

[pappawheely]

My truck is parked right outside, and I have the same kit on the front. I will take pictures or whatever it takes to help you figure it out. I know you are unhappy right now, but you should be familiar with your truck and know your way around it a little anyways. I always write in my articles that you should periodically climb under your truck and take a good look so you will be able to spot it right away if something's not right. You have a good solid truck, it just needs a little attention to detail. I know how frustrating it can be, I've been wrenching on my own stuff for decades. Let me know if I can help in any way.

 

[Chorky]

these

The nuts that hold the spindle to the steering knuckle. There are 5 (the one the pen is pointing to since its dark outside to take a real pic). 3 of them were almost off the bolts

Chorky....sad to hear you’ve had all these problems. I’m always amazed at the luck one person has versus the luck of another. You’ve taken a good route to upgrade your truck to something you’d be happy with. The only thing I can offer is that most of your problems are somebody else’s fault. Since you hired much of the work done by someone else you have no way of knowing what was done properly-and what wasn’t. Not till problems occur. I’m confident that if you keep going you will work it out. You’ll finally get the bugs gone. And a loose hub can absolutely “clunk.” You say you want a dependable platform that is easy to repair and mostly problem free. I say you still have it. You can start over.....but you won’t be much better off. Here’s some hard advice- and I mean no offense in offering it. Please don’t take me wrong. You started out with one of the most usable and dependable platforms that there is. From the factory. Period. You’ve made a lot of changes to that platform. So now you get to work bugs out. It doesn’t matter what you start with-pick a brand. If you modify it much and don’t do virtually all the work yourself you’ll be in the same shape. The guy at the shop— it ain’t his truck. He don’t care. It’s yours. It’s difficult to find a shop that will care like you do. They do exist. Now I know that time, and specialty tools can limit what the average truck owner can do. I rebuilt both my trucks. All of it. Now.....it was slow and tedious. I had to buy and borrow some tools. The shop..... it just did my alignment. So I know first hand FOR SURE how every part was put on, how it fit together, and if it fit properly. I also purposely kept stuff in a basically stock configuration. More or less. The stuff that was made very different from stock....it took some messing around and aggravation to get lined out. It’s just how it is. That truck will sell easy. It’s very nice and has a wonderful parts list. But considers this....Don’t quit. There’s a lot of stuff that is working good. Maybe you check that other hub and spindle nut. Get on the phone with sky and figure out what went wrong. Maybe they can give assistance yet. Probably need to put washers against the springs it make em’ tight. One thing at a time and you’ll end up with what you were after. I realize it’s a little late. But starting over ain’t gonna be any faster. You’ve got great tastes, and I can see that you’ve studied hard to get reputable upgrades. You’re almost there. Even if it doesn’t seem like it. With a few basic tools you can quickly verify the front end and feel confident. But I also take you to be the kind of guy that will come out just fine if you decide to sell the old truck and start over. Who could blame you. There’s other trucks out there that are great. They are capable and dependable. But I still think you already have one. Just my overbearing .02. Again - I mean no offense or criticism to you in any way. You’re just trying to figure it out. But that’s what these forums and build threads are about. Just good ole’ boys offering up a little advice, help, and encouragement to one another. Good luck with whatever you decide.

Your totally correct that this is historically one of the better platforms (of an older truck) to utilize. And also correct that only you can get the quality you desire - sadly I didn't have the time or place for this particular project. I will be sorting things out for sure, and would not ever want to part with it considering the investment made, and it certainly is awesome.. But the ability to resolve issues on the fly on the road for a nomad is not all that simple on larger trucks. But I certainly appreciate your encouragement! The best part of these groups ? One of the main reasons why considering a change of plans is not so much current frustrations of the truck, but rather the ease of doing field repairs as compared to a lighter platform. But I think if I can get this drive terrain set of problems ironed out, it should be good to go. Most of the problems having been encountered shouldn't (in my mind anyway) even be problems. Everything else (other than fixing the drip rail seals) is near perfect.

My truck is parked right outside, and I have the same kit on the front. I will take pictures or whatever it takes to help you figure it out. I know you are unhappy right now, but you should be familiar with your truck and know your way around it a little anyways. I always write in my articles that you should periodically climb under your truck and take a good look so you will be able to spot it right away if something's not right. You have a good solid truck, it just needs a little attention to detail. I know how frustrating it can be, I've been wrenching on my own stuff for decades. Let me know if I can help in any way.

I totally agree, and usually climb under the truck weekly. Well, maybe every 2 weeks. This is also the reason I spent a few weeks cleaning, prepping, scraping, and re-painting the entire underside - frame, axles, and masking off brake lines, etc). I'm just that anal about high quality equipment. I do know it quite well, and was a senior master certified tech for Ford during the era, but that was years and years ago haha oh how memories fade.... I am mostly unhappy at the quality of workmanship and am wishing I would have had the location to do all of this myself in the first place and know for sure it was done right. It was a rush though, knowing of a moving situation and nomadic lifestyle approaching. Anywhoo, I appreciate your offer. I would be most interested, as of now, to see what your shackles look like, and hear what you did to resolve any spacing issues. The loose nuts on the spindle are just poor workmanship I think - but could have been a catastrophic failure. Hopefully I can limp into town in the morning to get a rental car without incident.

 

[pappawheely]

What the heck?

 

[Chorky]

Well front end was torn down and tightened. It as pretty clear some bolts/nuts were just plain missed. How I have been on the road (and off) for a year without incident is amazing. Someone is looking out for me that's for sure!!! On the drivers side, only 1 of the 5 nuts were even anywhere close to tight. All the other 4 were showing threads. Passenger side needed to be torqued as well, but were not in a 'danger zone'. Need to get out for a good test but so far, on road, it seems as if the wonky steering feeling has been mostly resolved (the rest due likely to the springs moving around). All suspension components were also tightened. They were all snug, but not torqued to spec. Clunk is still there, and present in the steering wheel, but still no visible signs of anything moving around. I believe body mounts will just be on the list for replacement as a shotgun approach at this point - they are 22 years old after all...

With some heavy rains last few days I also noticed 2 water leaks, which suck. One is from the windshield (top right - so windshield removal needed to fix), the other is from the heater box somewhere, allowing water to leak inside and get to the floorboard. Really not sure where this one can even come from other than the seal on the cowl.

But, at least the truck is 'safe' to drive now, regardless of the annoying clunk going on, since there is zero visible problems that pose a safety hazard.

 

[Seabass]

Both my trucks have done clunking. I’m pretty sure each is suffering from a bit of play in the splines of the steering shaft. It’s not bad enough to justify the expense of replacing them. However- my flatbed truck (460) has a different clunk from time to time on rough terrain at speed. I can’t make it produce the sound, and it’s impossible to locate it’s source. Like you everything up from is new. Since I put it all on I know everything is tight because I’m OCD about double checking my work as I go. I e concluded it must be the springs moving ever so slightly....or even a shackle shifting a bit. But it drives great. I put it on an alignment rack- that mechanic couldn’t find anything either.

So glad you found time to check your truck out. I truly hope you have more luck going forward. Sounds like you definitely had a degree of Devine intervention!

 

[bknudtsen]

A couple things come to mind regarding your clunk. Because you say that you can feel it in the wheel, I am suspicious of something in that component train.

First thought is the intermediate steering shaft. A lot of trucks have an issue where the slip joint loses tolerance over the years and causes a clunk.

Second, check for contact between the pitman arm and the leaf spring. Looks like you have a dropped pitman arm, so it could hit the spring under compression during a turn. Hard to tell from the couple pictures you posted.

Third, check the steering stabilizer/tie rod bracket to draglink adjuster collar clearance. Looks super tight in one picture.

In regards to your leaf springs, with a gap on either side of the bushing collar, it will slide side to side. With the leaf springs being under compression, it’s going to bind and then slip suddenly. Washers are an easy fix, but you could also drill out the bushings, chisel out the bushing sleeve and replace with aftermarket urethane bushings with a thicker shoulder. Many aftermarket shackle hangers and shackles are setup for aftermarket leaf springs which use a wider spring eye bushing.

As far as the wandering feel, any loose component up front could contribute to it. Certainly the loose spindles causing constant changes in alignment, but take a look at your caster. Lifted leaf spring trucks usually need degree shims to add a little caster back. Otherwise, the steering feels loose and darty. With your shackle reverse, I am not sure how that affects it, but worth a look.

Good luck and keep after it,

Brad