2020 Defender Spy Shots....

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blackangie

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Why should JLR care about anything *but* what is purchased new? That's who's paying them, not those who pick them up used.

I see this argument frequently with regards to manual transmission options for other vehicles. Sure you want one, but in 5 years. But if nobody buys one new, they won't exist. As you said, most people only care about the BT system and the payment. The days of being able to buy a supremely capable 4x4 for pennies (I own an LR3 HD which cost the same an '06 Civic or Corolla) are numbered... I'm glad I'm in my 30s and will be able to swing a new vehicle in 5 years or so.
LR care very much about people with Classic LR's, so much so that they have opened a whole classic parts division which makes sure all parts are available for the classics and now do restoration services to keep them on the road, they look at it from both ends.

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gatorgrizz27

Active member
Why should JLR care about anything *but* what is purchased new? That's who's paying them, not those who pick them up used.

I see this argument frequently with regards to manual transmission options for other vehicles. Sure you want one, but in 5 years. But if nobody buys one new, they won't exist. As you said, most people only care about the BT system and the payment. The days of being able to buy a supremely capable 4x4 for pennies (I own an LR3 HD which cost the same an '06 Civic or Corolla) are numbered... I'm glad I'm in my 30s and will be able to swing a new vehicle in 5 years or so.
Parts and service from a strictly “$ right now” standpoint. I’d wager that most Rovers that have been properly maintained by dealers have made them way more $ over a 5 year period than they did on the initial sale.

Brand loyalty is another one. A lot of people grow up liking things their parents own, but can’t afford them when they start driving, get married, etc. In time they work their way up the ladder so to speak until they buy new. I’ve owned 6 Land Rovers now, none new, but I may at some point if the Defender ticks all the right boxes. My dad purchased a new LR4, switching from a Rubicon and based largely on my experience with Rovers. My wife drives a RRSC and may own a new one at some point in the future also. If they lose all their off-roading ability and what I would argue as their “soul”, I’m out.

Your statement about buying a new one in 5 years is a perfect example of the problem we face. The off-road features become options, 90+ % of buyers don’t purchase them, (again, see the HD package), so in time LR stops even offering it as an option. In 5 years there may be no high /low range transfer case, and they will tout it as an advantage that it’s simpler, lighter, fewer moving parts, doesn’t confuse the operator, etc.
 

blackangie

Well-known member
Parts and service from a strictly “$ right now” standpoint. I’d wager that most Rovers that have been properly maintained by dealers have made them way more $ over a 5 year period than they did on the initial sale.

Brand loyalty is another one. A lot of people grow up liking things their parents own, but can’t afford them when they start driving, get married, etc. In time they work their way up the ladder so to speak until they buy new. I’ve owned 6 Land Rovers now, none new, but I may at some point if the Defender ticks all the right boxes. My dad purchased a new LR4, switching from a Rubicon and based largely on my experience with Rovers. My wife drives a RRSC and may own a new one at some point in the future also. If they lose all their off-roading ability and what I would argue as their “soul”, I’m out.

Your statement about buying a new one in 5 years is a perfect example of the problem we face. The off-road features become options, 90+ % of buyers don’t purchase them, (again, see the HD package), so in time LR stops even offering it as an option. In 5 years there may be no high /low range transfer case, and they will tout it as an advantage that it’s simpler, lighter, fewer moving parts, doesn’t confuse the operator, etc.

Without wanting to get too off topic
If an auto gearbox can perform the SAME end result as a low range hi range transfer case what is the point other than additional weight and complexity?

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gatorgrizz27

Active member

Without wanting to get too off topic
If an auto gearbox can perform the SAME end result as a low range hi range transfer case what is the point other than additional weight and complexity?

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Reverse for one. The second issue with these auto gearboxes having 10+ speeds is they have more smaller moving parts in the same amount of space and are not as durable. There have been a ton of problems with the 2015+ Silverado transmissions. I’m also not a fan of transmissions that shift 5 times before you reach 30 mph and gear hunt constantly. As these engines are getting smaller, they are also losing low end (off-idle) torque in most cases, particularly the turbocharged versions.

I wouldn’t be surprised if we end up seeing taller low range ratios in transfer cases and the ECU uses both low and high ranges throughout its shift patterns to have “more gears” and EPA requirements get even more restrictive. The LR3 can already shift from low to high at up to 40 mph.
 

Blaise

Well-known member
Parts and service from a strictly “$ right now” standpoint. I’d wager that most Rovers that have been properly maintained by dealers have made them way more $ over a 5 year period than they did on the initial sale.
This is true but applies to vehicles with no off road capability (21" wheels, no low range, etc). I do understand that 10 speed boxes are a thing and that yes, its possible to eliminate low range, but the problem remains: Most people by a very large margin will never drive on a road or trail which requires more than a Subaru Crosstrek. And that makes sense - for decades we've had hugely over-built vehicles with excellent off-road capability which was for the most part never utilized. Eliminate these unused features and you reduce weight, cost, complexity and often gain road manners.

I really really love my LR3. But I also know that if you want a 4dr capable vehicle today you're left with picking between the decade-old 4Runner or the excellent new JL Wrangler, assuming you're not dropping $$$$$$ on a G or Land Cruiser (I'm also excluding pickup trucks). Let's see where the Defender lands in both capability and price.

I've made my peace with this and I'm glad that the market can at least support two excellent vehicles (even if the Yota is ancient).
 

gatorgrizz27

Active member
This is true but applies to vehicles with no off road capability (21" wheels, no low range, etc). I do understand that 10 speed boxes are a thing and that yes, its possible to eliminate low range, but the problem remains: Most people by a very large margin will never drive on a road or trail which requires more than a Subaru Crosstrek. And that makes sense - for decades we've had hugely over-built vehicles with excellent off-road capability which was for the most part never utilized. Eliminate these unused features and you reduce weight, cost, complexity and often gain road manners.

I really really love my LR3. But I also know that if you want a 4dr capable vehicle today you're left with picking between the decade-old 4Runner or the excellent new JL Wrangler, assuming you're not dropping $$$$$$ on a G or Land Cruiser (I'm also excluding pickup trucks). Let's see where the Defender lands in both capability and price.

I've made my peace with this and I'm glad that the market can at least support two excellent vehicles (even if the Yota is ancient).
I agree that most people don’t use the capabilities, but I’d argue that the idea of them is significant enough to infuence sales. No one takes a Rolex Submariner to 300 atm, but if they reduced it to 10’ to accommodate swimming pools, they would lose customers.

Understandably, they will probably still reduce the off road components in future vehicles, as the R&D costs may not pay off as they attempt to pinch pennies. I would like to see them continue using the successful platforms they’ve already built though. The ‘08-‘10 L322 RRSC, or even the LR3 is fantastic, and there is no reason they couldn’t stretch the wheelbase a foot and a half and slap a pickup truck body on it. People are paying $60k for 1/2 ton luxury trucks left and right, it should be doable for that and not compete with their other models.
 

blackangie

Well-known member
New Defender Lego Model in more detail.

Do i think there will be bolt on flares on the new defender, no i think that is just how Lego do wide fenders, but certainly there would be some clues here.



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gatorgrizz27

Active member
looks like high profile tyres and possible coils on the swb.

2 different LWBs as different roofs.

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It makes sense that coils would be an option, I had paid zero attention to the Discovery 5 based on it’s looks, but apparently coils are standard.

The Defender spec sheets showed 18” wheels being available too, those with a 32” tire standard and being able to fit a 33” wouldn’t be bad at all.
 

Christian P.

Expedition Leader
Staff member
So the Lego there has the same sort of wider "wing" over the doors from the front to the back. I just noticed that also in the Red Cross video. That seems a bit strange coincidence. The other images/videos do not show that body "feature". Anyone else has noticed that?

 
If JLR is pushing the Tusk and Red Cross thing as a staple, they absolutely must be producing a stripped down commercial version for fleet sales; there is no other way for any corporation, foundation, or whatever to justify cost of Defenders over LC and other variations available with similar capability.

Won't be here in the US, but if it meets safety spec, there is possible for importing!
 

blackangie

Well-known member
So the Lego there has the same sort of wider "wing" over the doors from the front to the back. I just noticed that also in the Red Cross video. That seems a bit strange coincidence. The other images/videos do not show that body "feature". Anyone else has noticed that?

Lego, thats just their way of showing hip line, it doesn't protrude, it reality will be curved that angled. Same with nearly everything on the Lego imo.

Red cross protrusion is just camo, was also seen on invictus.


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blackangie

Well-known member
If JLR is pushing the Tusk and Red Cross thing as a staple, they absolutely must be producing a stripped down commercial version for fleet sales; there is no other way for any corporation, foundation, or whatever to justify cost of Defenders over LC and other variations available with similar capability.

Won't be here in the US, but if it meets safety spec, there is possible for importing!
Good point re: import but LR will be going hard in the states so anything's possible.

D5 comes in commercial (utility) spec so new defender for sure.

Utility in the UK means commercial (not ute or pickup).

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