2020 Defender Spy Shots....

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DieselRanger

Well-known member
Every design is a list of compromises and trade-offs. Jeep has stayed true to the buyer's use cases which includes no doors, convertible and bikinis.

How many Jeeps are sold vs how many D5's?

In the US market an average of 23,000 Jeep Wrangler's are sold each month. Land Rover Discovery is selling at roughly 570 D5's per month.

The industry can sell only so many jelly-beans before there comes a time for consolidation of those who sell jelly-beans. The dealers are already screaming they don't need anymore jelly-beans. (SUV/CUV/....)
As I've said before, buyers can want in one hand and ******** in the other, and if the car doesn't pass the various certifications required to go on sale in the first place, they ain't gettin' one.
 

DieselRanger

Well-known member
Guys I hate to say it but the mid sized SUV that can fit lots of gear, haul people and fit in tight parking lots or do tight trails is going extinct. Soon we’ll have nothing but jeeps or big 4 seater heavy sport wagons. 🤦‍♂️

I’m pretty bummed out.

Gear loading space matters to all of us the modern stuff with the flip down 3rd rows eat up 8-10 inches of load floor to hatch trim height.
Nah, there's still the Discovery - I skipped the 3rd row for the cargo space and full sized spare and it has waaayy more space than the Ford Exploder, and it is the real deal off-road - had the corners in the air just yesterday. The Defender 130 will likely be the Family Truxter competition to the faux-luxe Suburban XLT.

Land Rover is already surveying focus group members about the next-gen Discovery 6. My input has been that the Defender must be more technically capable and slightly downmarket, the Discovery more Overland focused and slightly more upmarket in comparison to each other.
 

DieselRanger

Well-known member
Yes and no. Total pressure seen in a cylinder is compression ratio + boost, both over atmospheric pressure. Without variable vane the total boost is over the atmospheric pressure which is -20% at 6,000 ft. With variable vane the turbo can be spun faster to somewhat compensate for altitude (MAF reading) but there are limits to the turbo the manufacturer used. So the answer is ......... it depends. Automotive turbo's are not the same as aviation turbo's.
Close. Supercharged engines boost over atmospheric pressures because it's only the intake charge that's compressed by the supercharger turbine. Turbochargers use high-pressure exhaust gases to spin the turbo to compress the mixture of clean air and exhaust gases.

Turbocharged engines can and do spin their turbines faster at altitude to reach their peak boost pressure, but only up to a point, dependent on turbo size and available exhaust pressure, which is always higher than atmospheric pressure. Variable vane turbos or sequential turbos may provide peak boost at higher altitudes than a traditional fixed-vane single turbo. Generally speaking you won't see power drop off until you get close to or at 10,000 feet with a vehicle turbo.

Superchargers can recover some boost at altitude with tricks like water injection to cool and densify the intake charge, but as you suggest, above about 6,000 feet that benefit is negligible. Water injection is more effective at altitude in a turbocharged engine - which is why BMW put water injection in their latest M4 GTS.
 

L57

Member
This latest teasers #1 and #2 really focus on what I seek. Having owned a 1994 Defender and later a 1997 Trek Discovery, I have been waiting for the next Land Rover Defender for over 20 years. I believe it is here. I believe Land Rover gets it. Come on Land Rover show it off.
B2B57
 

mpinco

Expedition Leader
As I've said before, buyers can want in one hand and ******** in the other, and if the car doesn't pass the various certifications required to go on sale in the first place, they ain't gettin' one.
Jeep passes the needed safety test AND sells many more. That is a design and marketing success. If they went the jelly-bean route it would kill sales and people would just go elsewhere or stay with current product on the streets. Regulation could force the safest vehicle in the world but no one would buy it. Those who develop regulation have the responsibility of also understanding customer desires, not just 'safety'. If you kill a market have you really succeeded?

I'd like to see LR move more towards Jeeps overall product strategy vs developing more jelly-beans. The D5 sales numbers should open their eyes and hopefully they sit back and re-eval.
 
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REDROVER

Explorer
Land Rover is safer vehicle because it’s always parked at junk yard or mechanic shop.
Taking crap about Jeeps safety, wasn’t your discovery and classic Range Rover in the list of the top 10 roll over vehicles in USA ?land rover owner never has the rights to talk nonsense about any brand.
 

mpinco

Expedition Leader
Land Rover is safer vehicle because it’s always parked at junk yard or mechanic shop.........
My LR's have been very reliable and yes, they are safer than a Jeep Wrangler. I also have a couple of convertibles.

The ranking of safety (low or high) is not about Jeep or Land Rover. It is about regulation and what the consumer wants vs regulation. Welcome to the 70's when convertibles were going to be outlawed.
 

DieselRanger

Well-known member
Jeep passes the needed safety test AND sells many more. That is a design and marketing success. If they went the jelly-bean route it would kill sales and people would just go elsewhere or stay with current product on the streets. Regulation could force the safest vehicle in the world but no one would buy it. Those who develop regulation have the responsibility of also understanding customer desires, not just 'safety'. If you kill a market have you really succeeded?

I'd like to see LR move more towards Jeeps overall product strategy vs developing more jelly-beans. The D5 sales numbers should open their eyes and hopefully they sit back and re-eval.
Regulators don't care whether a market "succeeds" or not. Regulation (as opposed to legislation) is meant to influence behavior - either producers or consumers - nothing more. Yes, Heaps barely meet the letter of the law and as such are legal to be sold. Buyer beware.

The laws of physics work the same whether you are driving down Rodeo drive or Amasa Back. Personally, I'd rather have a safer vehicle surrounding me in both situations. The Discovery 5 had to pass a multiple rollover test with the cabin intact - they rolled it three times in one go - before Land Rover declared it good enough for the name. I have no doubt the new Defender will be equally safe.

Finally, as I posted in another thread, D5 sales are on par with LR3 and LR4 numbers worldwide since 2010.
 

blackangie

Well-known member
Land Rover is safer vehicle because it’s always parked at junk yard or mechanic shop.
Taking crap about Jeeps safety, wasn’t your discovery and classic Range Rover in the list of the top 10 roll over vehicles in USA ?land rover owner never has the rights to talk nonsense about any brand.
How much did Jeep pay you to right that?

Sent from my SM-G973F using Tapatalk
 

mpinco

Expedition Leader
- Jeeps are not "Heaps".
- LR's are not "always parked at junk yard or mechanic shop."
- Regulators do care if a market succeeds. Over regulation means their job is gone and/or they are.
- 25 years after the first Discovery the D5 is selling at 6800 per year, The D3 at 8000 per year at the same time in the life cycle, the D2 at 20,000 per year and the D1 at 15,000 per year, North American market.
- My reference to Bikinis was not the truck option ........... it was girls and bikinis, which I saw many with respect to Jeeps and FJ's on trails. Specifically 'The Gulches' and the South Platte River north of Deckers. Sex appeal sells. Land Rover's new 'design language' is targeting an older generation.
- Except when the older generation retires and acquires a motorhome they hitch a ........... Jeep....... to the tow bar.
 
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JeepColorado

Well-known member
A Theory- it's a little simple and obvious

Jeeps and Land Rovers are just made for different markets. I've been around both crowds and I'm pretty active on this and a Jeep JL forum and it's 2 different groups of people and mindsets.

I've yet to meet a Wrangler owner who cared about crash test ratings- it's certainly not why they bought it. In fact, there's probably a decent argument to be made that people buy it in a way because it's not the "safest" choice. It's a little rowdy- the doors and the roof come off- it's edgy, it's a little unrefined- it's irreverent and unapologetic. A Jeep is exactly what it appears to be- rough, ready and now more than ever in our cross-over mocha-chino land of vehicle design it's a really fun vehicle.


The Land Rover to me is way more composed- it's more sophisticated- it's a "proper" 4x4- it's much more well-rounded- the kind of person who buys a Jeep won't care that it's less powerful than what a Defender likely will be, they certainly won't care that the Defender will very likely ride much nicer on the road and have a much more luxurious interior. A Jeep is probably the most modifiable mass-production vehicle on the planet- it is a blank canvas you can make your own; it's incredibly capable off-road and an absolute blast to drive with the roof and doors off on a pretty day with music blasting.

I see the pull of both- honestly can't decide between the two and can't wait to start seeing some actual head-to-head comparisons.
 
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