2020 Defender Spy Shots....

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Pilat

Tossing ewoks on Titan
Show me where I said anything about old real defender being 90% less.
You are a flat out lier.

Again with the moving of goal posts – now, instead of moving the goal posts to “9 years” like you did previously, you now claim you do not base it on reality or even history.

In post number 2002:

How long do U think it will take for us to see new wanna be defender at LA Craigslist with 90% depreciated price tag ?
I would say by the time iPhone 13 comes out .



Then, in post 2018, you changed that to:

If you think it’s not gonna be real, go check 9 year old Land Rover prices compared to when they sold new
80 to 90% drop
Start saving it’s gonna happen.
But then again who wants a fake vehicle

So, where are those 9 year old Land Rovers at 10 percent of the original price?



You are a flat out lier.
I’m the liar? You constantly move the goal posts, and constantly claim to not have said what you just said a little earlier.

You remember saying “But then again who wants a fake vehicle ”?

Yeah, that’s the next part where you refused you ever said it, and then said you said something else.

In post 2025, it was suddenly different when you were confronted with you saying it was a "fake vehicle":

I speak for myself, this new Land Rover is fake defender

But with your dishonesty and the nerve to call other people liars (or "liers" as you put it), you have now earned the privilige of being the sole person on my ignore list. I am done with you.


As for the Land Rover itself, there is no doubt that this new Defender will be superior in just about every way to the old one. The only thing it won't be great as is as a base vehicle to modify for extreme rock crawling (and general bro-dozing).
 
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Pilat

Tossing ewoks on Titan
Something went wrong with the linked quotes and their "unfurl" request. But the number of the posts are there.
 

mpinco

Expedition Leader
Some points on the banter of old vs new.

I get what RedRover is saying about old vs new. I view the new Defender as a Luxury Defender, really a different class. You won't be taking a hose to the inside of the Luxury Defender. So in that sense the Luxury Defender is 'fake', as in losing many of the aspects that many have come to respect on the old Defender. But, JLR could not sell the old Defender in today's environment, period. Have they maybe gone too far with "Luxury"? I would suspect many could argue yes and many could argue no. If you expect a model to survive 35 years then I would think those who think they have gone too far would struggle 10 years down the road of competition.

On depreciation, that is a no-brainer. You can find DII's, that 10+ year old LR, all day long for $2K to $4K in Colorado or roughly 10 percent or less of original MSRP. Personally I think that is going to be a issue for the entire industry as they load up product with technology that quickly is commoditized and the prosepective buyer of a 10 year old vehicle looks at all the complexity and discounts it accordingly. I know I will. Do you really think you, not a shop, can fix a Luxury Defender in 10 years that is exhibiting ECU issues? Price your used Luxury Defender offer accordingly.
 

Pilat

Tossing ewoks on Titan
Some points on the banter of old vs new.

I get what RedRover is saying about old vs new. I view the new Defender as a Luxury Defender, really a different class. You won't be taking a hose to the inside of the Luxury Defender. So in that sense the Luxury Defender is 'fake', as in losing many of the aspects that many have come to respect on the old Defender. But, JLR could not sell the old Defender in today's environment, period. Have they maybe gone too far with "Luxury"? I would suspect many could argue yes and many could argue no. If you expect a model to survive 35 years then I would think those who think they have gone too far would struggle 10 years down the road of competition.

On depreciation, that is a no-brainer. You can find DII's, that 10+ year old LR, all day long for $2K to $4K in Colorado or roughly 10 percent or less of original MSRP. Personally I think that is going to be a issue for the entire industry as they load up product with technology that quickly is commoditized and the prosepective buyer of a 10 year old vehicle looks at all the complexity and discounts it accordingly. I know I will. Do you really think you, not a shop, can fix a Luxury Defender in 10 years that is exhibiting ECU issues? Price your used Luxury Defender offer accordingly.
I get that he thinks the Defender is a fake Defender. But he first claimed it was a fake vehicle. That's not the same thing. And as for the proverbial hose on the inside, I would never actually do that to an old Defender, unless I was a fan of rust and glitchy electrics. The interior of the new one is "wipe down", which is good enough for me.
As for pricing, he claims Defenders selling at 10 percent of the original price that are a mere 9 years old. Not Discovery's - and not Discovery's that are more than ten years old.

No, I don't think I can "fix" even my GPS myself, nor do I think I can "fix" an airbag either. There are a lot of things on even old cars you can't fix either unless you have the materials and, say, a welder (or a forge, for that matter). I am not willing to drive around in a steam powered vehicle with wooden wheels.

Seriously, this constant barrage of "it's too complex" is a stupid argument. If you only want to drive such simple cars, you will have to drive cars that are more than 40 years old. No car as simple as you guys want it to be could even come close to being sold legally. I guess you could find a carb'ed motorcycle and make sure it's a hardtail, because that evil suspension might not be something you can fix while on the road.

Good luck with your crusade to simplify to the extent that you're arguing for. It has become ridiculous. Even to me.
 
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mpinco

Expedition Leader
There has been a significant jump in complexity over the last 10+ years. From a few ECU's (1 or 2) to 85 ECU's. I'd like to see JLR's definition of "ECU" but 85 seems a little excessive. We've reached a point where each JLR product should be supplied with a diagnostic system which is my point on depreciation. You see the accelerated depreciation curve with EV's. Complexity and anticipated depreciation is also why I have eliminated the MHEV engine.
 

Pilat

Tossing ewoks on Titan
Yes, EV's depreciate quite a lot. That is mostly due to the fact that a) the older they are, the more likely they are to need new batteries, and b) the people buying them mostly are people who would like to have new tech and show off in one way or another. Of course, I would also likelysell my EV before having to deal with buying new battery packs.

Do you guys have the same thing about planes? Would you prefer to go into a radial prop plane with carbs, or would you prefer to be in something a bit more modern? LIke a Turboprop (or Jet). Do you balk at going into a modern plane with autopilot, computer diagnostics, electronic fuel gauges, radar guidance and so on, or would you prefer to be in something that actually includes all that?
 
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Pilat

Tossing ewoks on Titan
I just realised something:
It seems that a lot of people think that if any of the ECUs fails or faults, you'll be stranded. That's not how most works. The clearest example is the ECU controlling your ABS. If the ABS goes t..s up, you still have brakes, they're just not ABS anymore.
 

grizzlyj

Adventurer
“Often I see manufacturers trying to out-design each other. They are trying to sell end users gear with too many bells and whistles because that’s what the magazines tell the end users they need. There’s a certain level of dysfunction in this. How do we educate people that they don’t need the super high-tech suspension systems? It comes back to keeping it simple.”
Forrest Mccarthy

Edited to say he's not talking about JLRs ;)

snipped
It seems that a lot of people think that if any of the ECUs fails or faults, you'll be stranded. That's not how most works.
Fingers crossed, touch wood, rabbit's foot packed.
 

Murphypants

New member
I get that he thinks the Defender is a fake Defender. But he first claimed it was a fake vehicle. That's not the same thing. And as for the proverbial hose on the inside, I would never actually do that to an old Defender, unless I was a fan of rust and glitchy electrics. The interior of the new one is "wipe down", which is good enough for me.
As for pricing, he claims Defenders selling at 10 percent of the original price that are a mere 9 years old. Not Discovery's - and not Discovery's that are more than ten years old.

No, I don't think I can "fix" even my GPS myself, nor do I think I can "fix" an airbag either. There are a lot of things on even old cars you can't fix either unless you have the materials and, say, a welder (or a forge, for that matter). I am not willing to drive around in a steam powered vehicle with wooden wheels.

Seriously, this constant barrage of "it's too complex" is a stupid argument. If you only want to drive such simple cars, you will have to drive cars that are more than 40 years old. No car as simple as you guys want it to be could even come close to being sold legally. I guess you could find a carb'ed motorcycle and make sure it's a hardtail, because that evil suspension might not be something you can fix while on the road.

Good luck with your crusade to simplify to the extent that you're arguing for. It has become ridiculous. Even to me.
Glad that you are going to give it a rest, because your responses are equally ridiculous. Why do you give two shits what RedRover thinks? Why do you keep twisting his words, and pointing out things like (oh dear god!) spelling mistakes? C'mon, dude . . . the two of you have completely different worldview on this subject . . . live and let live, or take this to private messaging.
 

Pilat

Tossing ewoks on Titan
Why do you keep twisting his words
I didn't twist his words. I see you have as much intellectual honesty as he has. I quoted his posts and responded to what he actually said. Not what he later claimed to have said.

Yes, I had a single jab at a single spelling mistake. The one where he called me a liar ("lier").
And, yes, I do care when people have so little integrity that they will claim one thing, and then immediately deny they ever said that thing. It's annoying and it is dishonest. And when they then go on to call others liars for calling them out on constantly moving the goal posts, yes, that does get my waters hot.

You continuing his dishonesty by saying that I "keep twisting his words" just shows me that maybe, just maybe, he shouldn't be alone on the ignore list.
 

Pilat

Tossing ewoks on Titan
Fingers crossed, touch wood, rabbit's foot packed.
Yeah, there's that. But really, if you wanted something you could fix with a stick, even a bicycle is too complex. If some old engine or tranny throws a piston ring or a cog, or the the oil pump dies, or the axle breaks, you won't be going anywhere anyway.
Most EFI engines has a limp home setting if everything fails. Turbos? Yeah, on a diesel, it's not problem at all.

LEDs failing? They are much less likely to, other than strong impacts. If they fail due to this, a lamp fitting for an old-school one will also be dead. You don't have less springs and shocks on a solid axle vehicle either. So they'd be equally crappola to drive home from where they broke.

Corrosion of the electric wiring and therefore getting faults? I'll take the new one, thanks. It is more likely to have been done with crimping and not soldering, and more likely to have up-to-date plugs and crimps.

If, say, the weird combo rear mirror/display gets broken, it doesn't affect anything at all. If the various cameras malfunction? Well, then we're back to driving like in the old one.

If the traction control stops working? Well, you then have a car without traction control.

If the tranny blows: Again, I'd rather have this new automatic transmission than something 40 years build with subpar metals. And, even though people think they can shift better in offroad situations, the reality is that they can't. They can't even shift better on a flat road surface than a modern automatic transmission.

Even Unimogs these days have plenty of ECUs and auto transmissions. There's an electronic "manual" on them to appease the old guard.

A lot of it comes down to people thinking that they can just McGyver something out in the wilderness if they have an old car. But they don't realise that even the mechanics of a new car is much better than the mechanics in the old.
 

rover671

New member
Well, I was just talking to our local BMW service manager about electronics in newer vehicles and he mentioned that if a speed sensor on later model x3 went out, the vehicle will be stuttering as in move a couple of inches and stop and move a couple of inches and stop. If this is the case, I'm sure other later model BMW behave the same way.

I just realised something:
It seems that a lot of people think that if any of the ECUs fails or faults, you'll be stranded. That's not how most works. The clearest example is the ECU controlling your ABS. If the ABS goes t..s up, you still have brakes, they're just not ABS anymore.



Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 

Doron

Adventurer
I just realised something:
It seems that a lot of people think that if any of the ECUs fails or faults, you'll be stranded. That's not how most works. The clearest example is the ECU controlling your ABS. If the ABS goes t..s up, you still have brakes, they're just not ABS anymore.
In many vehicles, due to safety and regulations, in a braking system failure, such as ABS sensor failure, the vehicle goes into limp mode, that you cannot override without a computer connected with the right software.
,


Slowly..
 
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