2005 Tundra novice build - "The Rez"

toyotech

Expedition Leader
I'd love to run Fox at some point. Especially with the option to add a remote reservoir with adjustable clickers. I guess I don't fully understand how a longer coil benefits. Lots of conflicting information out there.

My Icon's were rebuilt a year ago and the valving adjusted, but they weren't changed from digressive to progressive. I do like my rear Icon's though. Digressive I know, but they do have a remote reservoir and adjustable clicker on them. It's nice to be able to adjust the ride within a matter of seconds. Firm it up for towing or heavier loads, soften for street driving, and somewhere in the middle for trails.

At this point my truck is mostly on the road. At least until the trails open again and then it'll be on the trails at least every other week.
While 700lbs 14” vs 16” is the same. The benefits of a longer spring is more space between each coil before they are full compressed. When fully compressed you get spring bind which you don’t want.

I got a sequoia I been looking to build. Since I have fox on the tundra. I wanted to try kings so I can compare them. The more I look into it. I think I may go fox again. Customer service isn’t that great with fox vs kings. Besides that. My fox have held up. Rides tits and I’m hoping to retune/rebuild them sometime this hear if I can afford the down time.

I’ll admit they didn’t build them correct with the right lower spring perch. I had to email them saying they make contact with the brake lines and they sent me Tacoma lower perch that seem to fix the issue. I asked if they are gonna fix this issue. They just said they will look into it.




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There has to be a better solution for our trucks with a steel front bumper and winch.

Mine has the BFF like you with a Smittybuilt 9500 and syn line. Also have skid row plates front to back (another 150 lbs). The 700s were too soft and I was extremely close to coil contact. 800s now with collar completely extended and too stiff. Need to find a 750 option or get it custom. Lance Hansen also having problems with his 700s sagging over time. Worth noting we are both running Kings vs Icons, have not measured the 2 side by side to compare adjustment collar to coil bucket distance.

see attached pic for reference w the 700 springs at full stuff/compression during some flex tests.
Interesting that 700lb springs didn't work for you. I have a BFF bumper with the 10,000lb winch on King coilovers and these Eibach springs work great for me.



https://wheelersoffroad.com/shopbyvehicle/tundra/99-06-tundra/eibach-14-coil-spring-pair-for-2-5-coilovers.html
 

idriveabox

Member
Kpack, did you use the same oem bolt specs on your rear shocks with your hardware store bolts? I have the same rattle you identified and swamped in new oem bolts but feel they are too small In diameter somehow. The rattle has returned for me. Cheers
 

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Kpack

Adventurer
Kpack, did you use the same oem bolt specs on your rear shocks with your hardware store bolts? I have the same rattle you identified and swamped in new oem bolts but feel they are too small In diameter somehow. The rattle has returned for me. Cheers
No I didn't use the same specs as OEM, or whatever I had before. My Icon rear shocks are 1/2" diameter on the lower mounting hole and the OEM bolts are way smaller than that. I took an OEM bolt with me to the hardware store to get the length right, and bought two bolts in 1/2" diameter, along with washer and nylock nut. All hardware was grade 8 I believe.

I haven't had any noise from the rear since I replaced those bolts. A quick $10 fix.
 

Jb1rd

Explorer
While 700lbs 14” vs 16” is the same. The benefits of a longer spring is more space between each coil before they are full compressed. When fully compressed you get spring bind which you don’t want.

I got a sequoia I been looking to build. Since I have fox on the tundra. I wanted to try kings so I can compare them. The more I look into it. I think I may go fox again. Customer service isn’t that great with fox vs kings. Besides that. My fox have held up. Rides tits and I’m hoping to retune/rebuild them sometime this hear if I can afford the down time.

I’ll admit they didn’t build them correct with the right lower spring perch. I had to email them saying they make contact with the brake lines and they sent me Tacoma lower perch that seem to fix the issue. I asked if they are gonna fix this issue. They just said they will look into it.

Look into ADS https://arizonadesertshocks.com/product/00-06-toyota-tundra-bolt-in-shocks/ they have shocks that are specifically valved for our First Gens, I just put them on from having Fox, night and day difference and they will ride better once I install the BFF and winch. Plus I can not say enough about their customer service, Fox was terrible, these guys are on it and totally dedicated to their product.




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Kpack

Adventurer
Jb1rd - so what was the difference you felt in the ride from Fox to ADS? And what do you mean by "they will ride better" once the bumper and winch are on there? Is it stiff right now? I'm really trying to get away from the stiff ride I have right now while still keeping my ride height.

Are ADS shocks digressive or progressive?

And do either Fox or ADS have shocks with extending droop? That is one thing I do like about the Icon's I have. I have a lot more travel in the front than a standard set of coilovers.
 

Jb1rd

Explorer
Jb1rd - so what was the difference you felt in the ride from Fox to ADS? And what do you mean by "they will ride better" once the bumper and winch are on there? Is it stiff right now? I'm really trying to get away from the stiff ride I have right now while still keeping my ride height.

Are ADS shocks digressive or progressive?

And do either Fox or ADS have shocks with extending droop? That is one thing I do like about the Icon's I have. I have a lot more travel in the front than a standard set of coilovers.
The ride from Fox was HARSH, the ADS is "stiff" but SMOOTH if that makes sense, the 700# springs will settle and ride better with the weight of the bumper and winch because that is the way the C/O was valved and set up, if you do not run a bumper/winch set up they have have a lighter spring that they recommend. They are progressive but not sure about the droop, but knowing that all of the guys building these shocks really use them I would say it is a safe bet that they are setup for the best possible results. I still need to get my bumper and winch installed then I will go to Slee Offroad and have them do a full adjustment and tune to make sure I am getting the absolute best performance possible, these things are not cheap but they also have a 60k mile lifespan before needing a rebuild (according to the techs who have helped me thus far, again, who have been running these much harder than I probably ever will) Once I have the front dialed in I will install the Archive Garage Overland Springs as well as their rear shock relocation mount, this setup should give me an amazing ride once the flatbed camper project is done.
 

DzlToy

Explorer
If the spring rate on your coil over is correct and you have a harsh ride, either the valving or the compression is not up to par. A 700 pound spring, should be a 700 pound spring.

Tuning a damper for great handling and ride is an art and frankly, most people suck at it. Get your dampers tuned by a pro, even if that means buying from Fox and going to someone like MTS in Phoenix. I am not recommending them, per se, but a company like that with experience in different forms of racing and driving and with different products.

I have to laugh a bit when people make comments like, "My truck is not a rock crawler, why would I want low gears?" or "I don't drive 100 mph through the desert, I don't need expensive shocks."

There is a reason that certain products and certain setups are used in certain applications. A suspension that is set up to ride well over wash board, support a 6,000 pound truck on the street and trail and handle pot holes 2 feet wide, will probably ride well most everywhere else. Is this the right setup for you? Maybe so, maybe not, but proper setup is the key. Having a suspension that excels at one thing and sucks at everything else, is one that is not designed or tuned properly.

Many people are happy with an AWD platform or a very shallow low range. Once you have driven a truck with 100:1, you will change your mind. You don't have to BE a rock crawler to take advantage of technology and knowledge from that industry to improve the capabilities or comfort of your rig. Suspension is the same, IMO.

For those who may not be familiar with the benefits of proper shock tuning, check out the clip below. (no affiliation with either company, but I believe the info to be correct.)

 
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Kpack

Adventurer
The ride from Fox was HARSH, the ADS is "stiff" but SMOOTH if that makes sense, the 700# springs will settle and ride better with the weight of the bumper and winch because that is the way the C/O was valved and set up, if you do not run a bumper/winch set up they have have a lighter spring that they recommend. They are progressive but not sure about the droop, but knowing that all of the guys building these shocks really use them I would say it is a safe bet that they are setup for the best possible results. I still need to get my bumper and winch installed then I will go to Slee Offroad and have them do a full adjustment and tune to make sure I am getting the absolute best performance possible, these things are not cheap but they also have a 60k mile lifespan before needing a rebuild (according to the techs who have helped me thus far, again, who have been running these much harder than I probably ever will) Once I have the front dialed in I will install the Archive Garage Overland Springs as well as their rear shock relocation mount, this setup should give me an amazing ride once the flatbed camper project is done.
I'd love to have something like Slee around me, but as far as I know there isn't anywhere that does that kind of tuning here. There are some expedition outfitters a couple hours away but I don't know exactly how much they do with tuning suspension. And they are super expensive.

Thanks for the info on the ADS suspension. Looks nice.

If the spring rate on your coil over is correct and you have a harsh ride, either the valving or the compression is not up to par. A 700 pound spring, should be a 700 pound spring.

Tuning a damper for great handling and ride is an art and frankly, most people suck at it. Get your dampers tuned by a pro, even if that means buying from Fox and going to someone like MTS in Phoenix. I am not recommending them, per se, but a company like that with experience in different forms of racing and driving and with different products.

I have to laugh a bit when people make comments like, "My truck is not a rock crawler, why would I want low gears?" or "I don't drive 100 mph through the desert, I don't need expensive shocks."

There is a reason that certain products and certain setups are used in certain applications. A suspension that is set up to ride well over wash board, support a 6,000 pound truck on the street and trail and handle pot holes 2 feet wide, will probably ride well most everywhere else. Is this the right setup for you? Maybe so, maybe not, but proper setup is the key. Having a suspension that excels at one thing and sucks at everything else, is one that is not designed or tuned properly.

Many people are happy with an AWD platform or a very shallow low range. Once you have driven a truck with 100:1, you will change your mind. You don't have to BE a rock crawler to take advantage of technology and knowledge from that industry to improve the capabilities or comfort of your rig. Suspension is the same, IMO.

For those who may not be familiar with the benefits of proper shock tuning, check out the clip below. (no affiliation with either company, but I believe the info to be correct.)

My problem is that I have no idea if my spring rate is correct. How do you determine that? I would've thought that 700lbs springs is right for the extra weight I've put on the front (maybe 220 lbs?). And while they hold the truck up nice and keep it stable when cornering and such (no sway bar), I can feel everything little variation in the road. Hitting potholes and/or manholes is a really unpleasant experience. I mean it feels like something is going to break when I hit anything remotely rough at road speed. And the back bounces like crazy when hitting a rough spot in the road....."jiggling" is probably the best way to describe it. Rather than soaking up the bump smoothly and returning to position, the rear end has a ton of aftershock. You can feel it in the cab and it gets old fast.

With the truck parked, I can push down on the rear and the whole truck jiggles. I can only assume that the springs are too stiff and that the truck is bouncing on the tires. At least that's what it seems like.

So do I back my #700's off, or do I go to a #650? Right now I have 1.5" of thread showing on a 14" 700 lbs spring.

***I'm also curious to see what other 1st gen Tundras have for their ride height. I have no idea what stock is, so I'd like to compare to others to see if I'm too high.
Center hub to lower fender edge = 21.5" both sides.

What does everyone else have?
 

Jb1rd

Explorer
Im at 21.5 as well in the front and 22.5 in the rear, waiting for the winch and bumper then will adjust accordingly to get it to sit level

***I'm also curious to see what other 1st gen Tundras have for their ride height. I have no idea what stock is, so I'd like to compare to others to see if I'm too high.
Center hub to lower fender edge = 21.5" both sides.

What does everyone else have?
[/QUOTE]
 

tennesseewj

Observer
***I'm also curious to see what other 1st gen Tundras have for their ride height. I have no idea what stock is, so I'd like to compare to others to see if I'm too high.
Center hub to lower fender edge = 21.5" both sides.

What does everyone else have?
Stock measurements:

FD - 19.5"
RD - 22"
FP - 19.75"
RP - 22.25"


Bilstein 5100s set to 0" lift with OME 2884 coils:

FD - 21"
RD - 22"
FP - 21.25"
RP - 22.25"

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smokeysevin

Observer
Don't throw the baby out with the bath water, any shock can be revalved, hell most of them share components. There is only so may ways you can make a damper. Outside of spool valves and manufacturing tolerances they are all basically the same.

If you can wait a week or so, its not too bad price wise to send shocks off to get rebuilt and revalved.

You can in most cases even swap reservoirs among shocks or add them to your current shocks if you are willing to spend some time getting the right fittings and have access to a hydraulic shop near you.

External compression adjusters can be added from FOA if you don't want to spend fox money.


You will need a reservoir piston as well.

Regarding the rear, you could have too much rebound damping. Leaf springs are kind of a pain to dial in since they are effectively a progressive rate spring. too much rebound damping and you get the rear end compressing too much and struggling to fall back out, too little rebound and you end up with a bucking condition.

In the front, you have to remember what you are doing by preloading the shock. Coil compression at ride height sets the minimum level of spring force you have If your 700lb/in spring is preloaded to 1.5" height you effectively have 1050lb of spring force at ride height, then for every inch you compress offroad you add another 700lbs to it.

If you have a 600 lb/in spring you have 1.75" of preload to reach the same static load of 1050lbs but you only have 600lbs per inch after that.

The problem comes in with block height. A 700lb/in spring has thicker coils than on a 600lb/in spring so it has a taller block height and on a short stroke coil over you can compress the spring fully if you have too much preload or too much travel. On the flip side, you need less preload to reach the same ride height with a 700lb/in spring. Specs from Eibach (https://eibach.com/us/c-9-ers.html)

1578935670623.png
1578935715359.png

If you use a 16 inch spring

1578935771215.png
1578935807086.png

Ideally you would use a spring with the same travel as came on the shock stock but increase the rate to accommodate the extra weight. Remember thought, the coilovers act on a lever and are not on the 1:1 pivot and you have 2 on the front of the truck. Realisically adding 250lbs to the front translates to somewhere around a 50lb increase in rate if you keep the preload the same.

What do you run your tire pressure at and what are the sidewalls?

Sean
 
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Kpack

Adventurer
Sean - I had my shocks rebuilt and revalved a year ago. They hadn't been done prior to that as far as I'm aware (bought them used). I had them adjust the valving so the low speed compression was improved. The shop that rebuilt them said that I couldn't change the digressive valve to a progressive. I don't know enough about this to know if that's correct or not. The ride remained basically unchanged, which tells me the springs are likely the problem.

The more I look at it and read up on it, I'm leaning towards swapping my 700 lbs springs to 650 lbs. I have the original #650's that the Icon shocks came with and might try to swap them over. They are 13", which is kind of annoying, but a swap would tell me if I could get my ride height back and have an improved ride. If I'm understanding all this correctly the spring length doesn't necessarily matter, more just the rate. I should still be able to preload the 13" #650 springs to get to my ride height (2" above stock) and they should theoretically be softer than the #700's at that height.

Here's some decent reading I found: https://accutuneoffroad.com/articles/coilover-spring-rates-for-toyota-tacoma-4runner/. Since the 1st gen Tundra is heavier than a Tacoma I'd say 650 for me would equal 600 for them. Maybe? I don't have immediate plans to add full skids, and will be keeping my bed open and clear. I don't think I'll have much more weight than I already do.

The FOA reservoir has me intrigued. When I had the shocks rebuilt I inquired about adding a remote resi and the cost just didn't make sense. If I could add them myself I'd really consider it. I'm sure I can find a place that works with hydraulics around here....tons of tractors for farming in this area. That can come later though. I ought to be able to get a decent ride with what I have now if I can figure out what I need to do.

Regarding the rear, you could have too much rebound damping. Leaf springs are kind of a pain to dial in since they are effectively a progressive rate spring. too much rebound damping and you get the rear end compressing too much and struggling to fall back out, too little rebound and you end up with a bucking condition.
I'm not following you here. Did you mean to say I have too little rebound damping? Bucking would be a decent way to describe what I'm feeling. Lots of feedback from the rear end. The only way to adjust this is to revalve, correct? This is what I have on there currently: http://iconvehicledynamics.com/shop/943-2000-2006-toyota-tundra-vs-25-series-pbr-rear-shocks-wcdcv-0-3-lift.html

What do you run your tire pressure at and what are the sidewalls?
My tire pressure is 35 front and 33 rear (chalk test), and they are E-rated (285-75/16)
 
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