You shoot RAW, so what, your exposures suck...

articulate

Expedition Leader
Trevor, I enjoyed your post.


^^Probably the scenario where I rely on the histogram the most....Pictures with heavy shadows, and interesting contrast.
1038266803_x96TR-M.jpg

To toss in a contrary opinion, I would rely on spot metering in these situations.

The histogram is still a tool that you have to learn to know what you're looking at, mentally process it, and translate that into an action for what to do next. You're looking at a graph. I suppose that's what Trevor means by "it lies to you." I'm with Aaron. Look at the light, judge it, meter it. Just like a histogram, you still have to learn to make on-the-fly judgments about the information it's giving you.

That's part of the craft. Isn't it? Making choices?
 
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Lost Canadian

Expedition Leader
Trevor, I enjoyed your post.




To toss in a contrary opinion, I would rely on spot metering in these situations.

The histogram is still a tool that you have to learn to know what you're looking at, mentally process it, and translate that into an action for what to do next. You're looking at a graph. I'm with Aaron. Look at the light, judge it, meter it. Just like a histogram, you still have to learn to make on-the-fly judgments about the information it's giving you.

That's part of the craft. Isn't it? Making choices?
Metering, however it's done either spot or matrix, is part of the equation but it is still going to follow the path of middle ground. A histogram would still be useful in determining if what you got is what you actually wanted. If you spot the trees brightest area the camera will render that point middle grey in greyscale terms. In order to get the most out of the digital file and to reduce the impact and incidence of noise however, I would probably spot meter then add exposure comp pushing the metered area to just below clip. Then, when I bring the RAW file into the converter I can pull the highlights back and I'll be left with nice details in the highlights, as well as deep detailed noiseless shadows. If I just spot the brightest area there will be very little detail left in the shadows, and if I decided to try to bring them up a bit later I would induce a lot of noise. Again this about optimizing not interpreting. You are still making creative choices and decisions as to what you want, an accurate histogram simply allows you to measure the accuracy of your intents.
 
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Ryanmb21

Expedition Leader
This is a great post, I have nothing to add but this is information I will try to use. Thanks everybody for the input.
 

taco2go

Explorer
A histogram is still useful in determining if what you actually got is what you wanted. If you spot the trees brightest area the camera will render that point middle grey in greyscale terms.

Exactly why I use it in that situation.
I have some spot metered shots of the same composition I will upload that show how it evens out the contrast.
But I get Mark's point completely- I typically rely on spot or center weighted metering for most pictures that have a well defined area or subject I want to emphasize

Again, the difference here is that I'm not using the histogram to get the correct exposure, but rather to see if I captured the range I wanted, with the effect that i want the picture to convey
 
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Tucson T4R

Expedition Leader
This makes sense to me as another useful tool to understand when shooting. I do refer to the histograms a lot when post processing but I have not really paid much attention to them on camera while shooting.

I'll have to pay closer attention next time I'm out and see what I can learn.

Everyone's points here have been valid. It's definitely a complex combination of the artistic eye of the photographer, understanding how different lighting conditions enhance or take away from an image and the technical aspects of your equipment and how you use them to maximize the quality of what you capture.
 

taco2go

Explorer
A couple more examples from yesterday(I'm very much a novice so these are nothing like Trevor's, and others' works of art)

Spot metered:
1038928367_Fj8zY-M.jpg

Used the histogram to help me bracket down further to give the effect ofwhat I was seeing:
1038929655_ooopK-M.jpg
Unfortunately- i now still have a lot of noise in the shadows, which get worse when I use fill :) but I'm still learning the GF-1's quirks- which is what I think Trevor is getting at.
 

Lost Canadian

Expedition Leader
Again, the difference here is that I'm not using the histogram to get the correct exposure, but rather to see if I captured the range I wanted, with the effect that i want the picture to convey

Exactly! Most digital shooters want a reference point to look at after they take the shot and an accurate histogram is simply the most accurate means to best analyze that. The actual picture on the LCD is typically a terrible indicator of exposure due to a number of reasons. If you shoot in the pitch dark of night and review that shot under those same conditions, even a very underexposed shot will probably look bright on the LCD. Bring it into your chosen converter though and you'll discover just how terribly underexposed it was. Same thing in reverse for shooting in bright sunlight. You may end up overexposing because of what you think you are seeing on the LCD. As inaccurate as they can be the histogram is still the most accurate way to analyze the image. You can tell and see exactly where your shadows, mids and highlights are all falling and make you adjustments accordingly.
 

nwoods

Expedition Leader
... I don't much use Histograms either, and am much more of an intuitive picture taker as well. But I can appreciate the discipline of learning how that graphical representation reflects something composed out of sheer inspiration, and how it relates to exposure...

Reading through this thread, and others that Trevor has posted over the years, and watching his skills grow exponentially over the past 3 years...got me to thinking that Trevor is like the Food Network's Alton Brown (from Good Eats). He's very technically minded artist.
 

Lost Canadian

Expedition Leader
Reading through this thread, and others that Trevor has posted over the years, and watching his skills grow exponentially over the past 3 years...got me to thinking that Trevor is like the Food Network's Alton Brown (from Good Eats). He's very technically minded artist.

LOL, Alton Brown, I love that guy. Actually though, I'm not that technically inclined but I do think photography as a medium has always been a bit of a cross between science and art. I mean even back in the days of film you had guys jumping around darkrooms like mad scientists mixing up stinky chemicals. Digital hasn't changed things much, if anything things have become more complex, I mean have you ever tried to match colour profiles of a Mac monitor and Epson printer? Headache! If you want to see and hear technical, sit through a seminar with John Paul Caponigro or Bill Atkinson. To hear those two talk at length about colour science and theory will leave your head spinning for days. Brilliant photographers both of them, and incredibly technical.

Not to mention, I think it's only natural that when things interest us we will want to seek greater understanding. Also, I don't think anyone with artistic inclinations sets out attempting to create something mediocre. That's why if photography is ones chosen medium or outlet, I personally think it behooves them to seek out greater understanding with respects to how things work so they can grow and get exactly what they want out of the medium if they're actually trying to create. The more solid our foundations are with respects to understanding the higher we will be able to ultimately climb.
 
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Michael Slade

Untitled
Two things:

1. Your histogram is being generated from an in-camera .jpg regardless of whether you shot it in RAW or not. Even the best histogram on the back of your camera is not showing you the complete amount of data.

2. I wish people bracketed more. It really does help even with digital.
 

Every Miles A Memory

Expedition Leader
I've been reading and studying quite a bit lately on Birds As Art forum and reading through Arthur Morris's tutorials. If anyone is interested, they're amazing when it comes to the detail they teach you when trying to find proper exposure.

Arthur Morris sends out free weekly updates on his seminars and includes amazing amounts of detail in how he captures those images. What these emails have shown me is that I really need to understand my cameras histogram, but I more or less need to be a expert in post processing.

Lets face it, our fore fathers that we all look up to and try to immulate were good, but their expertise was in the darkroom. They caught the original image with an exposure that they knew would give them leway in the darkroom much like us modern photographers need with our various software tools.

Sometimes I overexpose a specific image because I know I want to go into CS5 and adjust for a certain thing in the image....Just an Example. No two images should be exposed the same unless you're under controlled lighting...is bascially what I'm getting at.

Here is a recent comment given by Arthur Morris when asked about Proper Exposure

1-If you are a serious student, study the principles dealing with Exposure Theory in the original "The Art of Bird Photography." (ABP: softcover)

2-If you are either a serious student or a casual student, study the "Exposure Simplified" section in "The Art of Bird Photography II" (ABP II: 916 pages on CD only).

3-Even though some very fine photographers do so, using an incident meter with digital makes zero sense to me in part because very few folks know to use it properly, but mainly because of the following:

4-As above, folks make getting the right exposure with digital much too complicated. All that you need to do is add or subtract light so that you have data at least halfway into the highlights box on the histogram--the fifth box with Canon, the 4th with Nikon, while making sure that you have at most only a few flashing highlights. This approach only works perfectly 100% of the time with front-lit subjects.

5-If you have more than a few seconds with a subject with digital, you should be able to come up with a decent exposure 100% of the time. In difficult situations that feature extreme and/or unusual lighting conditions you will need to make split second adjustments in order to come up with a use-able exposure. To do this consistently you will need to know exposure theory well so see #1 above and study hard. If you are forced to guess in these situations, you will likely fail.

6-Serious students should know how to work comfortably in Manual Mode; doing so is a necessity when the light is constant and the background tonality is changing. In fact, all but beginning photographers should be competent working in both Manual mode and Av mode (or any other automatic mode). And regardless of what some very fine photographers will tell you, there are times when an automatic mode is best, and other times when it can save the day (while folks working in Manual mode will be dead in the water). Detailed instructions on working in Manual mode can be found in ABP II.

7-Different digital camera bodies from the same or from different manufacturers will almost always require different amounts of exposure compensation (and these differences can be much larger than what most folks realize). Anyone who is moving say from a 40D or a 50D to a 7D or a MIII or MIV will need to learn to add a lot more light than they used to especially when working with low light and scenes that average to brighter or well brighter than a middle tone.

In the same situations, Nikon cameras will need less plus compensation. Before you go thinking that Nikon cameras are better than Canon cameras you had best know that if you have a white subject in bright light with a blue water background with Nikon you will likely be subtracting at least one full stop of light (and lots more if the subject is small in the frame) while Canon users are making images with good histograms in the same situations at zero or even +1/3 stop. You need to pay at one end or the other.

8-There is no need to come up with a "perfect exposure" with digital. You would need a microscope to see any possible difference between a good exposure and a perfect exposure. Not so with film . To repeat, all that you need to do to come up with a good digital exposure is to add or subtract light so that you have data at least halfway into the highlights box on the histogram--the fifth box with Canon, the 4th with Nikon, while making sure that you have at most only a few flashing highlights.

Final comments: if you are in the field with me, say on an IPT, and you ask me "What's the right exposure?" there is only one right answer: "The exposure that gives you data at least halfway into the right-most (highlight) box of the histogram with only a few flashing highlights at most." (I hope that that is sounding familiar by now.) Sometimes folks ask, "What's the right exposure compensation?" In order for me to answer that one I would need to know the following:

1-What you are photographing.

2-What camera you are using.

3-What metering pattern you are using.

4-The magnification you are working at; this depends on the lens/teleconverter/camera combination. As detailed in ABP the size of the subject in the frame will influence the meter.

5-The framing; again as detailed in ABP, the placement of the subject in the frame will influence the meter.

6-The selected AF mode: AI Servo (C in Nikon) gives you the exposure at the moment the image is made while One-Shot (S in Nikon) locks the exposure when focus is locked. In conjunction with #4, this will effect the exposure.

Hope that helps. When I read this latest email blast, I instantly thought of Trevors post and thought I'd share some of it with my fellow photographers on EXPO
 

Lost Canadian

Expedition Leader
Aside from the small amount of self-promotion he's pitching there's some really good info there Pat. Thanks for sharing.
 

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