XPCamper goes out of business, files for bankruptcy?

BritKLR

Kapitis Indagatoris
If the contract states that additional monies are due at each stage of build, and he misrepresented (lied) about the stage of the build. That is sufficient evidence to warrant a civil fraud case.

Basic tenets of fraud.

  • Misrepresentation of a material fact
  • Knowledge on the part of the accused that they were misrepresenting the fact
  • The misrepresentation was made purposefully, with the intent of fooling the victim
  • The victim believed the misrepresentation and relied upon it
  • The victim suffered damages as a result of the misrepresentation
Or a criminal (municipal, state, federal) fraud case.
 

eblau

Adventurer
The saddest part of this conversation is we (as a nation, well... the ultra conservative part at least) are complaining about paying people $15/ hour minimum wage when most families can't get by on even $20/ hour. I'm not talking about those living beyond their means I'm talking about hard working americans where one parent goes to work and the other stays home with the kid(s), they may have one new car, go out to eat occasionally as a family etc.... they make it happen but can't put away even $100 a month in a savings acct. Every day for these people is a game of chance, a dice roll, one health problem away from financial ruin with a ************** go fund me page panhandling their friends and colleagues that play the same game. Its going to come to a boiling point in the near future.
 

pugslyyy

Expedition Vehicle Engineer Guy
Still **** pay.
You are, of course, entitled to your opinion.

The US Bureau of Labor Statistics publishes data on what particular jobs pay in different parts of the country.

The Occupational Employment Statistics (OES) program produces employment and wage estimates annually for over 800 occupations. These estimates are available for the nation as a whole, for individual states, and for metropolitan and nonmetropolitan areas; national occupational estimates for specific industries are also available. https://www.bls.gov/oes/

In our area, the average hourly wage for a welder is $21.87, and we are offering $20-25/hr.

Whether or not it is "**** pay" (and I don't think it is), it is what the local market pays for that position.
 

luthj

Engineer In Residence
There is a lot of variance in the welding field.

A welder certified to work on pressure vessels (powerplant, refinery etc) can often make $35 an hour. A welder who shows up and welds a complete assembly in a factory? Pre-prepped parts without fabrication, etc, probably in the $20 range. A skilled fabricator who welds and does light fab (no CNC), would be 25-30$. A skilled fabricator taking parts from drawing to assembled weldment (CNC or hand machining, tolerances etc) can be 35$ as well. Add aerospace to that job description and it can be 40$ an hour. Benefits such as health care and retirement typically adjust the wage down about 10-25%.

Of course these values need to be adjusted for local cost of living and demand. 20$ an hour won't even get someone out of bed in expensive areas.
 
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plh

Explorer
There is a lot of variance in the welding field.

A welder certified to work on pressure vessels (factory, refinery etc) can often make $35 an hour. A welder who shows up and welds a complete assembly in a factory? Pre-prepped parts without fabrication, etc, probably in the $20 range. A skilled fabricator who welds and does light fab (no CNC), would be 25-30$. A skilled fabricator taking parts from drawing to assembled weldment (CNC or hand machining, tolerances etc) can be 35$ as well. Add aerospace to that job description and it can be 40$ an hour. Benefits such as health care and retirement typically adjust the wage down about 10-25%.

Of course these values need to be adjusted for local cost of living and demand. 20$ an hour won't even get someone out of bed in expensive areas.
Very true, Unfortunately in a lot of areas of the country it is difficult to find people willing to move jobs that are skilled in these trades, plus there isn't much back-fill from youngsters wanting to get into the trades.
 

luthj

Engineer In Residence
Eventually a worker shortage will encourage increases in wages and resulting recruitment. The number of welding and fab positions has been dropping slowly since the 90s, mostly due to the proliferation of excellent welding robots. Of course that has created a well paying niche for techs and engineers who can program said robots.
 

rruff

Explorer
The saddest part of this conversation is we (as a nation, well... the ultra conservative part at least) are complaining about paying people $15/ hour minimum wage when most families can't get by on even $20/ hour.
$15 is too much to start, when 30% of workers make less than that and the median is only $20/hr or so. But it definitely needs to move up. The real tragedy is how poor worker pay has become across the whole spectrum relative to national productivity. Even professionals in high-demand niches make relatively crappy pay.
 
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Osmo79

New member
I see this as a problem with several sides. First, I'm no financial expert but it seems to me that inflation is more of the problem for most as wage growth has really not matched the pace of inflation since the 60's based on some studies. While wages have gone up for many, their buying power has shrank in comparison. If the fed didn't pump so much currency into the system effectively devaluing the dollar, then the maybe fast food workers wouldn't need to make 15 dollars an hour.

Second is that when I was in school (I'm 40 now) blue collar jobs were looked at as second class. My family and teachers pushed college and getting a degree, ANY degree, as the ticket to success. After messing up my scholarships my senior year and not really having any direction anyway I chose to follow my fathers advice and learn a trade. I went to work at 18 years old for a non-union industrial electrical contractor making $6.25 an hour in 1998. By age 23 I was making 80k a year working outages and lots of OT. Granted I had no family or kids to worry about so the travel and hours weren't bad, and the money for toys was nice. If only I had been smarter about managing money I'd be retired right now.

As is, by advancing my skills, taking the risks of moving and changing employers I've landed in a nice position for this point in my life where I get the family time I want in between travel and outages and have a salary that allows for my wife to stay at home with the kids and go to school herself. For 2019 my gross income was nearly 150k as a project manager for a small utility, all with no college degree and no student loan debt. Now that I'm focused on finances I'm on track to retirement at age 45 and hope to have a couple side jobs going by then to chase personal passions.

My mom on the other hand went to college after us kids had left the house and got a masters degree then went back for a graduate certificate. As a licensed social worker she has yet to make over $50k a year where she works and now at age 64 still has nearly $70k in student loan debt.

I have contractors working for me that all are struggling to find skilled workers, union and non-union alike. Industrial electrical apprentices at non-union shops here in central Florida are starting in the $15 an hour range and Journeymen in the union can make around $25 plus benefits. These rates are low compared to many locations but still an electrician with a few years experience can easily make $50k a year plus benefits not counting overtime yet the jobs go unfilled. Maintenance electricians at my utility can make mid $30's per hour and gross over $100k per year with overtime, yet these jobs are going unfilled.

As my dad used to always say "Learn a trade cause there's always jobs out there. May not pay what you want or be in the location you want but there's work if your willing to do it."

At the end of the day most of these trades jobs will teach you what you need to learn if people are just wiling to put in the time and effort... It can be hot/ cold at times, dirty at times and have you stressed at times, but if your wiling to put in the work it can be rewarding.
 

luthj

Engineer In Residence
Tangentially related, but the college and loan lobby have convinced the federal government to provide low interest loans, and guarantee them. This has inflated the cost of college education, and also encouraged extensive marketing to increase the desirability of degrees. To be fair, over the last 40 years an increasing number of jobs require a degrees. If you could choose to work in a comfortable office environment, or on a noisy, dirty, or hot/cold environment, wouldn't you choose the office?

Similar loan programs should have been made available for 2 year tech schools.

Part of the labor shortage in these fields is due to demographics (cohort replacement). A disproportionate number of baby boomers were blue collar workers. As they age out of the working population there is a lag before recruitment picks up.

Something similar is happening with pilots in commercial aviation. The looming required retirement (due to age) has put many airlines into a panic, and they are pushing hard to recruit and train new pilots.
 

plh

Explorer
Something similar is happening with pilots in commercial aviation. The looming required retirement (due to age) has put many airlines into a panic, and they are pushing hard to recruit and train new pilots.
Beginning commercial pilots don't make squat. My nephew flew for Delta (regional second seat - its where you start) and quit after 2 or 3 years, headed off to med school and is currently in residency. Pilots need to be smart people to get into the training programs, that brings a lot of choices for higher paying careers.
 

luthj

Engineer In Residence
The current incentives are much better (still crap pay for the first couple years). With the retirements coming fast in the next 5 years, there's lots of room to move to larger mainline AC quickly.
 

plh

Explorer
The current incentives are much better (still crap pay for the first couple years). With the retirements coming fast in the next 5 years, there's lots of room to move to larger mainline AC quickly.
I believe he said he was making mid 30s when he quit. He is doing his residency in anesthesiology, will make up that deferred gap very quickly.
 

utherjorge

Observer
and the hours for those young pilots are supposedly a huge problem...part of what got people in Buffalo killed when that regional crashed on approach

aerospace and underwater welding are where it's at, if anyone wanted to do it
 
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