Winch thimble abuse

[DaveInDenver]

Didn't say you were wrong. Just presenting a different opinion. Thimbles aren't rated, I was referring to the soft rigging you alluded to for weight. I prefer a rated shackle that can be tested over soft shackles.

 

[shade]

Didn't say you were wrong. Just presenting a different opinion. Thimbles aren't rated, I was referring to the soft rigging you alluded to for weight. I prefer a rated shackle that can be tested over soft shackles.

If we're still discussing the Factor 55 ProLink, it's rated to 16,000 lbs - before bashing it into rocks.
[I was on my phone before, and now I see the thimble in the OP isn't a F55 part. ]

I chose a Factor 55 FlatLink over their ProLink for the less obtrusive parked position. Steel shackles can be used with either if soft shackles aren't desired. I'm sure a hook has a speed advantage, but I don't enter competitions or find myself in situations where seconds matter when rigging a pull.

 

[DaveInDenver]

If we're still discussing the Factor 55 ProLink, it's rated to 16,000 lbs - before bashing it into rocks.

I chose a Factor 55 FlatLink over their ProLink for the less obtrusive parked position. Steel shackles can be used with either if soft shackles aren't desired. I'm sure a hook has a speed advantage, but I don't enter competitions or find myself in situations where seconds matter when rigging a pull.

I run a plain Winchline thimble personally, cost being a factor. Factor 55 stuff is nice, just couldn't justify $150 worth of nice.

 

[Metcalf]

Didn't say you were wrong. Just presenting a different opinion. Thimbles aren't rated, I was referring to the soft rigging you alluded to for weight. I prefer a rated shackle that can be tested over soft shackles.

Is everything rated in your recovery system? I think 'ratings' just make people feel better in one area while they ignore all the rest of the potential issues personally.

The recovery points on most vehicles have no rating. The winch mount doesn't have a rating. The loop/eye on the cable/line isn't rated. Etc. Etc.

You can buy tested and rated winch thimbles and soft shackles if it makes you feel better from companies like Factor55.

Personally, I am very comfortable in my own design and engineering for recovery items. I tie my own soft shackles. I rig my own winch lines. I build my own bumpers. Etc. I do get nervous looking at a lot of other work done by other people and in the market in general. I tend to spread the load out to multiple recovery points whenever possible. When in doubt, always use more shovel and time to decrease the loads as much as practical is my golden rule.

 

[Metcalf]

The upside to this the thimble sticking out is it works just like the 1950's and 60's curb feeler. It will hit and scrape along alerting you that the rock ledge is right in front of you!

Da Frenchman

That is what caused the hawse to fail basically in this case.

 

[jadmt]

That is what caused the hawse to fail basically in this case.

exactly what many have been saying...driver error.

 

[Metcalf]

exactly what many have been saying...driver error.

Tomato Potato

....or having the thimble stick way out is a dumb idea.....

 

[Airmapper]

View attachment 544152

Looks pretty obvious to me from this photo that the fairlead was not flush mounted to the bumper along the bottom. This is a design failure, and had nothing to do with the pull, the driver, or anything. It was a stupid setup and was going to break if it was used at all.

The aluminum fairlead, the kind installed there without rollers, is only intended to be a softer edge to prevent cutting your rope as it feeds into the winch. It's also only intended for use with synthetic line, which it appears to probably be set up with, but I can't see the line.

It is not load bearing by itself. It is not designed or intended to take the brunt force of the line or thimble. It's strength comes from having a steel backing, and get pressed into a solid flat surface, not hold it all by itself. It takes a lot of pressure to squeeze aluminum in one spot, but not much at all to break a span of it. If the fairlead sat flush to a steel backing like the upper half does, it would not have broken.

That bumper would require a steel bracketed roller fairlead to work, and even then, it's still not ideal as the winch opening should have a flat support surface behind the fairlead.

 

[Metcalf]

Looks pretty obvious to me from this photo that the fairlead was not flush mounted to the bumper along the bottom. This is a design failure, and had nothing to do with the pull, the driver, or anything. It was a stupid setup and was going to break if it was used at all.

The aluminum fairlead, the kind installed there without rollers, is only intended to be a softer edge to prevent cutting your rope as it feeds into the winch. It's also only intended for use with synthetic line, which it appears to probably be set up with, but I can't see the line.

It is not load bearing by itself. It is not designed or intended to take the brunt force of the line or thimble. It's strength comes from having a steel backing, and get pressed into a solid flat surface, not hold it all by itself. It takes a lot of pressure to squeeze aluminum in one spot, but not much at all to break a span of it. If the fairlead sat flush to a steel backing like the upper half does, it would not have broken.

That bumper would require a steel bracketed roller fairlead to work, and even then, it's still not ideal as the winch opening should have a flat support surface behind the fairlead.

He was running synthetic line with the aluminum hawse.

I don't think that having additional support under the bottom edge of the hawse would have been bad, but I have run a similar aluminum hawse with sunken upright winch installs for about a decade now without any issues.



On this 4runner bumper, I agree that the hawse was in poor location, but a bulky roller flairlead would have overhung the bottom edge even more. That would have caused just as many impact and support issues in similar situations. I'm thinking that an offset hawse that raised the opening up would help. I wasn't honestly impressed with the bumper structure that much at all. You would see it flex when winching and dropping off ledges. I'm not sure what company made it.

 

[Metcalf]

I'm thinking a hawse like this would help in this situation. Move the hawse up with hopefully a little more support behind the lower edge.
(and not having the thimble leveraging on the lower edge when nosing up to big walls/ledges )

 

[Louisd75]

This was an interesting failure on one a Toyota 4runner during my last trip to moab. The winch thimble was in a position where it was catching when trying to nose up on larger ledges and leveraging on the hawse when having to back off them. This eventually broke the hawse rendering the winch unusable.

I am not sold on the safety thimble concept. View attachment 544152

I agree with @Airmapper regarding the bumper design. The bottom of the hawse has minimal support behind it. I wouldn't be surprised to see a similar hawse failure occur from a hard downward pull (ie, trying to recover a vehicle that was below the 4Runner). I don't have enough info from the picture about the bumper, but I would try to run the thimble up somewhere above the bumper like you show in your Willy's picture. Your Willy's also appears to have more support, ie, the hawse is backed up completely, it doesn't overhang like it appears on the 4Runner.

I wouldn't necessarily argue this as a problem with the safety thimble, more of not understanding what's going on and adapting accordingly. The 4Runner probably wouldn't have broken the hawse if he'd payed out some line and moved the thimble at the first sign of contact. I'd also put some blame on the spotter if they were using one.

 

[Metcalf]

I wouldn't necessarily argue this as a problem with the safety thimble, more of not understanding what's going on and adapting accordingly. The 4Runner probably wouldn't have broken the hawse if he'd payed out some line and moved the thimble at the first sign of contact. I'd also put some blame on the spotter if they were using one.

If he would have played out line, he would have just cut the line.

I don't know about you, but getting spotted up and down every little thing makes the day drag on forever. Fixing the issues would be a better way to go. The thimble sticks out about 3" or more. I agree that the hawse could be better supported on the bumper.

 

[Louisd75]

If he would have played out line, he would have just cut the line.

If paying out line would have resulted in it getting cut then how can you say that this is a problem with the thimble? A hook or regular thimble would have resulted in a cut line as well. It's a bumper design issue with a poorly located and protected winchline exit and a poorly supported fairlead.

I don't know about you, but getting spotted up and down every little thing makes the day drag on forever. Fixing the issues would be a better way to go. The thimble sticks out about 3" or more. I agree that the hawse could be better supported on the bumper.

I agree that constant spotting makes the day take forever. On the flip side, have you tried recovering a vehicle with non-operating recovery gear? That tends to take a while as well. I guess at some point you have to decide what's better for the group... is it worth breaking stuff so that you don't inconvenience everyone else? This logic is largely why I don't wheel with groups anymore. I've seen it far to often and it's just not worth it for me.

I agree that fixing the issue is the right way to go, but by your own statement if the winchline would get cut even if it was payed out, then how can you blame the thimble? Also, for what it's worth, a broken synthetic winchline can be permanently repaired on trail using nothing more than your hands. It's a slightly different story when you break the fairlead.

 

[Metcalf]

If paying out line would have resulted in it getting cut then how can you say that this is a problem with the thimble? A hook or regular thimble would have resulted in a cut line as well. It's a bumper design issue with a poorly located and protected winchline exit and a poorly supported fairlead.

I agree that constant spotting makes the day take forever. On the flip side, have you tried recovering a vehicle with non-operating recovery gear? That tends to take a while as well. I guess at some point you have to decide what's better for the group... is it worth breaking stuff so that you don't inconvenience everyone else? This logic is largely why I don't wheel with groups anymore. I've seen it far to often and it's just not worth it for me.

I agree that fixing the issue is the right way to go, but by your own statement if the winchline would get cut even if it was payed out, then how can you blame the thimble? Also, for what it's worth, a broken synthetic winchline can be permanently repaired on trail using nothing more than your hands. It's a slightly different story when you break the fairlead.

The thimble is an issue because it causes tons of extra leverage on the hawse. That is actually what broke the hawse. The hawse could be better supported, but I still think having the large thimble hitting things just isn't the best way to go.

Yes, synthetic line is easy enough to repair, but I don't want to sacrifice it.

Something as simple as just running the small tube thimble on the winch line and letting it go back beyond the hawse into a protected space would solve the majority of the issues here. Add short webbing sling if you are worried about your fingers that much. Sometimes, especially in the case of some of these new gadgets like the thimble on this vehicle, I think we might be creating more issues than we are solving.

 

[Louisd75]

The thimble is an issue because it causes tons of extra leverage on the hawse. That is actually what broke the hawse. The hawse could be better supported, but I still think having the large thimble hitting things just isn't the best way to go.

Yes, synthetic line is easy enough to repair, but I don't want to sacrifice it.

Something as simple as just running the small tube thimble on the winch line and letting it go back beyond the hawse into a protected space would solve the majority of the issues here. Add short webbing sling if you are worried about your fingers that much. Sometimes, especially in the case of some of these new gadgets like the thimble on this vehicle, I think we might be creating more issues than we are solving.

Metcalf, I think you're circling and circling around the true root of the problem here and it isn't the thimble

The bumper has a fundamental design flaw in the placement for the winch exit. The bumper is the problem. Let's say that we switch to a regular thimble, sans hook, and store it behind the bumper. Now you get the pleasure of trying to fish it out through the fairlead anytime you need to use it and hope that it doesn't get loose inside and bird nest while driving down the road. The short webbing idea isn't a bad one (and it's one that I use on my truck), but the problem with the webbing is the same as the issue you brought up with running the winchline out...if the webbing gets cut, now you're fishing out a thimble from behind the bumper and possibly dealing with a bird nest of winchline.

The other issue that arises is that your fairlead is now essentially a skid plate since it's the leading edge of the bumper. It's so far forward that you're concerned about cutting winchline, you're also going to be beating the heck out of an aluminum hawse. I'm sure you're aware of how synthetic line handles sharp edges. We've also already established that there's not enough support for the bottom of the hawse, so there is still a very real possibility of hitting the bottom edge and breaking it off, even without any winchline or thimbles involved.

My opinion (and we all know about opinions) is that the 4Runner has two choices. The cheapest choice is to spot everywhere that the bumper may be coming into contact with an obstacle to make sure to protect the fairlead. Yeah, it kinda sucks, but it's the best way to drive to the shortcomings of the vehicle setup. The best choice is to replace the bumper with something that moves the fairlead and winchline exit to a more protected location. Make the bumper take the hit, not the recovery gear.