Winch thimble abuse

Metcalf

Expedition Leader
Metcalf, I think you're circling and circling around the true root of the problem here and it isn't the thimble :)

The bumper has a fundamental design flaw in the placement for the winch exit. The bumper is the problem. Let's say that we switch to a regular thimble, sans hook, and store it behind the bumper. Now you get the pleasure of trying to fish it out through the fairlead anytime you need to use it and hope that it doesn't get loose inside and bird nest while driving down the road. The short webbing idea isn't a bad one (and it's one that I use on my truck), but the problem with the webbing is the same as the issue you brought up with running the winchline out...if the webbing gets cut, now you're fishing out a thimble from behind the bumper and possibly dealing with a bird nest of winchline.

The other issue that arises is that your fairlead is now essentially a skid plate since it's the leading edge of the bumper. It's so far forward that you're concerned about cutting winchline, you're also going to be beating the heck out of an aluminum hawse. I'm sure you're aware of how synthetic line handles sharp edges. We've also already established that there's not enough support for the bottom of the hawse, so there is still a very real possibility of hitting the bottom edge and breaking it off, even without any winchline or thimbles involved.

My opinion (and we all know about opinions;)) is that the 4Runner has two choices. The cheapest choice is to spot everywhere that the bumper may be coming into contact with an obstacle to make sure to protect the fairlead. Yeah, it kinda sucks, but it's the best way to drive to the shortcomings of the vehicle setup. The best choice is to replace the bumper with something that moves the fairlead and winchline exit to a more protected location. Make the bumper take the hit, not the recovery gear.

I agree and disagree.

Just changing out the thimble gains over 3" of approach. That is going to solve problems.

The idea I posted above about using an offset hawse to lift it up another 1-2" solves even more issues.

I don't get any 'birdnest' of line when using synthetic when it is stored without tension?
The chances of damaging $1-2 in tubular webbing to the point it can't be used as a handle is pretty low risk. It doesn't see any load.

Getting out to spot a vehicle up everything sucks....and if you are solo isn't really going to work.

I do agree the bumper is a bad design, but I don't see a ton of options on the market for that generation of Toyota that don't expose the hawse in a similar way?
 

BigSwede

The Credible Hulk
The best choice is to replace the bumper with something that moves the fairlead and winchline exit to a more protected location. Make the bumper take the hit, not the recovery gear.
There are compromises in everything... if you do that, I guarantee the bumper will stick out farther than it does, and be more likely to hit on ledges. Maybe the bumper can take it better, but if you are hitting it on more ledges, what are you actually gaining? The answer is, it depends.

I have a Demello bumper on my FJ that has the fairlead on the underslant. In some circumstances this could be vulnerable, but OTOH it offers the best approach angle out there and there will be many cases where it won't even touch a ledge than another bumper will hit. Pick your poison.
 

Louisd75

Adventurer
There are compromises in everything... if you do that, I guarantee the bumper will stick out farther than it does, and be more likely to hit on ledges. Maybe the bumper can take it better, but if you are hitting it on more ledges, what are you actually gaining? The answer is, it depends.

I have a Demello bumper on my FJ that has the fairlead on the underslant. In some circumstances this could be vulnerable, but OTOH it offers the best approach angle out there and there will be many cases where it won't even touch a ledge than another bumper will hit. Pick your poison.

I absolutely agree about compromises. The initial theme of the thread was how the thimble caused carnage when the reality is that there were a lot of contributing factors. Every vehicle is a compromise, as are every accessory added to them. When you're out there exploring you've gotta keep in mind the weak spots and do what is necessary to work within the limits of your vehicle (even when it's inconvenient and slower) or risk breaking things like fairleads :) From what I recall, the Demello bumper for the FJ supports the entire base of the fairlead, which is a superior design to the bumper shown at the start of this discussion.
 

shade

Well-known member
There are compromises in everything... if you do that, I guarantee the bumper will stick out farther than it does, and be more likely to hit on ledges. Maybe the bumper can take it better, but if you are hitting it on more ledges, what are you actually gaining? The answer is, it depends.

I have a Demello bumper on my FJ that has the fairlead on the underslant. In some circumstances this could be vulnerable, but OTOH it offers the best approach angle out there and there will be many cases where it won't even touch a ledge than another bumper will hit. Pick your poison.

Look at the photo in the OP. There's little to nothing supporting the entire bottom of the fairlead. While the thimble sticking out didn't help, the lack of support on the bottom of the fairlead was a bigger issue.

This was an interesting failure on one a Toyota 4runner during my last trip to moab. The winch thimble was in a position where it was catching when trying to nose up on larger ledges and leveraging on the hawse when having to back off them. This eventually broke the hawse rendering the winch unusable.

I am not sold on the safety thimble concept. View attachment 544152

I absolutely agree about compromises. The initial theme of the thread was how the thimble caused carnage when the reality is that there were a lot of contributing factors. Every vehicle is a compromise, as are every accessory added to them. When you're out there exploring you've gotta keep in mind the weak spots and do what is necessary to work within the limits of your vehicle (even when it's inconvenient and slower) or risk breaking things like fairleads :) From what I recall, the Demello bumper for the FJ supports the entire base of the fairlead, which is a superior design to the bumper shown at the start of this discussion.
bingo
 
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Metcalf

Expedition Leader
Look at the photo in the OP. There's little to nothing supporting the entire bottom of the fairlead. While the thimble sticking out didn't help, the lack of support on the bottom of the fairlead was a bigger issue.

bingo

My flat fender.....



No support under the hawse at all. Limted support behind the hawse being just some 3/16" steel.

It has never broken......it has also never had a big thimble mounted on it causing funky leverage on the hawse either.

I watched the failures on the Toyota in question happen, I don't think it JUST from lack of support on the lower edge. I think the thimble was causing a ton of force on the hawse.

Moving it up might have helped support it better, but I still have my doubts if that would have fixed the root issue ( leverage from the thimble )
 

Metcalf

Expedition Leader
I absolutely agree about compromises. The initial theme of the thread was how the thimble caused carnage when the reality is that there were a lot of contributing factors. Every vehicle is a compromise, as are every accessory added to them. When you're out there exploring you've gotta keep in mind the weak spots and do what is necessary to work within the limits of your vehicle (even when it's inconvenient and slower) or risk breaking things like fairleads :) From what I recall, the Demello bumper for the FJ supports the entire base of the fairlead, which is a superior design to the bumper shown at the start of this discussion.

Unless you are getting out ever two minutes to look at everything when ever something gets hit or rubs on something you will find some weak links.
I favor fixing the issues instead of driving around them when possible.
 

shade

Well-known member
My flat fender.....



No support under the hawse at all. Limted support behind the hawse being just some 3/16" steel.

It has never broken......it has also never had a big thimble mounted on it causing funky leverage on the hawse either.

I watched the failures on the Toyota in question happen, I don't think it JUST from lack of support on the lower edge. I think the thimble was causing a ton of force on the hawse.

Moving it up might have helped support it better, but I still have my doubts if that would have fixed the root issue ( leverage from the thimble )
I agree that the big honkin' thimble didn't help, but if the back of the hawse had been supported with more than air, do you think it would've broken as easily? If the Toyota's hawse had no exposed thimble at all, and the hawse was struck on a rock, I suspect that the bottom would've easily cracked.

On your Jeep, even the 3/16" steel is adding support, isn't it?
 
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Metcalf

Expedition Leader
I agree that the big honkin' thimble didn't help, but if the back of the hawse had been supported with more than air, do you think it would've broken as easily? If the Toyota's hawse had no exposed thimble at all, and the hawse was struck on a rock, I suspect that the bottom would've easily cracked.

On your Jeep, even the 3/16" steel is adding support, isn't it?

A little bit, but 3/16" steel in bending that direction is not really that strong. The aluminum cross section would be stronger by a decent margin.
The opening in the steel is also going to always be larger than the hawse opening to prevent the line from rubbing....
 

Louisd75

Adventurer
Unless you are getting out ever two minutes to look at everything when ever something gets hit or rubs on something you will find some weak links.
I favor fixing the issues instead of driving around them when possible.

Absolutely agree about fixing things, but we've already established that even if he'd run the thimble up and out of the way that the winchline would have likely been cut :) That to me is an issue that can be resolved by judicious spotting or a different bumper design.
 

Metcalf

Expedition Leader
Absolutely agree about fixing things, but we've already established that even if he'd run the thimble up and out of the way that the winchline would have likely been cut :) That to me is an issue that can be resolved by judicious spotting or a different bumper design.

1- Delete the dumb thimble. Add a little nylon strap to the original thimble on the winch line. Let that get cut if needed. ($2)
2- Raise the hawse up with an offset design. It is already broken and has to be replaced anyways.

That fixes the majority of the issue without having to drive around it or buy another bumper.....
 

Louisd75

Adventurer
1- Delete the dumb thimble. Add a little nylon strap to the original thimble on the winch line. Let that get cut if needed. ($2)
2- Raise the hawse up with an offset design. It is already broken and has to be replaced anyways.

That fixes the majority of the issue without having to drive around it or buy another bumper.....

Yep, and your hawse is still a contact point to get chewed up. We're going in circles here Metcalf :unsure:
 

Metcalf

Expedition Leader
Yep, and your hawse is still a contact point to get chewed up. We're going in circles here Metcalf :unsure:

Eventually everything gets chewed up if you push it hard enough.
What I laid out fixes the large majority of the issue for basically 'free'
There will be at least 3" more clearance because the thimble is gone ( good )
The hawse will be about 3/4" higher up ( good )

That is still a very good gain for 'free'
 

verdesard0g

Search and Rescue first responder
I agree, just move the hawse up higher on the bumper. If you want a rock crawler, get one but not all vehicles are meant for that.....
 

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