Winch thimble abuse

[Metcalf]

This was an interesting failure on one a Toyota 4runner during my last trip to moab. The winch thimble was in a position where it was catching when trying to nose up on larger ledges and leveraging on the hawse when having to back off them. This eventually broke the hawse rendering the winch unusable.

I am not sold on the safety thimble concept.

 

[Metcalf]

I see that this maybe the wrong approach angle of the vehicle in arriving at the ledges. The bumper may be poor design, as it sticks out as the furthest point on the bumper. The winch thimble is located in a position that takes the force of the vehicle and passes it to the hawse fairlead. This is from what I see as a driver error. The lower skid plate/bumper shows scrapes on it as well. I will use my best judgement and say even without the winch thimble you would have hit the hawse fairlead. I also noticed the passanger side light mounting bracket is bent also.

I know Moab a little! With over 25 years leading trail there at EJS and over 45 years of driving Jeeps and other 4X4's, I have a clue.

Now to correct this from happening again. Do not approach a ledge straight on, come at it at a slight angle. This will give the tire a chance to start climbing the ledge (getting the nose of the bumper clearance). When the first tire starts climbing the ledge turn to go straight up the ledge. If it is so high that the departure angle will cause the rear of the vehicle to drag, you may have the wrong vehicle for the trail your doing.

Da Frenchman

......oh boy......

This isn't my vehicle bud, this was just another person in the group I was with. The winch/bumper design tucked everything as close as practical to the radiator/core support area. There isn't anywhere else to mount the winch on this particular vehicle for much more clearance. It is as tight to the front of the vehicle as possible.

If you push the vehicle far enough onto hard enough trails, stuff is going to start dragging. This is true even if you are driving a buggy with an approach angle greater than 90 degrees. Most everyone figures out that approaching at an angle can help pretty quick, but it also isn't always possible because of the conditions.

I do agree that having one of these thimbles up front is perhaps a bad idea......but that was the entire point of my original post so......

I'm not too worried about scratching a bumper or a hawse in extreme conditions, but a lot of these new 'thimble' systems stick out WAY more than needed. That extra length can cause even more issues like leveraging forces that broke the hawse.

 

[Metcalf]

The title of the thread is "Winch thimble abuse"

In response to your point that the thimble sticks out to far a hook also sticks out. Maybe not as far as the thimble but even folded flat against the hawse it will stick out and with the same force as was used against the thimble I believe the results would be the same. That vehicle may not be built for the trail it was on.

Since I do not know the person who was driving the vehicle or the skills of the person, I was pointing out the possible causes. I also tried to point out suggestions. You just want to point out the limits of a product that is fine and it looks as if the thimble did great just some paint and scrapes. What you said was

Options; Maybe the person should have removed it after the first or second hit. Maybe he did not have a snap ring pliers or a way to remove the snap ring. Then pulling the rope our a foot or two and tie it off to the tube on the top of the bumper, out of the way. Then it may clear or if it did not then as I said above "That vehicle may not be built for the trail it was on".

I do run a different brand then the Smitty Built and have not hit mine. Mine is a on the Jeep and not a 4runner and my bumper does not stick out that far. Maybe for that vehicle with that style of bumper the thimble is not the best choice. I do know many people who run the Thimbles, and they never have problems

Cheers,
Da Frenchman

I agree that the thimble is causing issues. To be honest, I am just not a fan of the concept lately at all.

To me, this was an interesting failure to see on the trail. I wouldn't say the driver was purposely abusing the vehicle or the thimble, but it seemed to take only one or two decent hits to cause the damage to the hawse ( breaking out the lower part due to leverage from an impact to the thimble ).

Some vehicles are going to be better or worse for approach angle and exposure in this area, but this theme seems to be more common than I would like with the general 'large safety thimble' concept. I see related issues pretty common on the trail. I'm not so sure the 'safety' thimble concept didn't create a few more issues than it solved honestly. I keep trying different concepts, but I keep coming back to either using a hook, or just a soft shackle through the rope eye thimble itself with nothing else.

I posted this thread as an example of an issue to look out for, especially on vehicles with a similar setup.

 

[jadmt]

Looks like driver error to me, and was stated wrong vehicle or vehicle set up for the trail.

 

[DaveInDenver]

I don't see how this supports your dislike of safety thimbles one way or the other. Seems like there's plenty of poorly conceived winch mounts that look to me like they're waiting to damage something.

 

[Alloy]

Stainless steel wouldn't break.

 

[jadmt]

Of course that Smittybilt pot metal looks like it would break if you stared at it long enough.

 

[Metcalf]

I don't see how this supports your dislike of safety thimbles one way or the other. Seems like there's plenty of poorly conceived winch mounts that look to me like they're waiting to damage something.

I generally agree, but many people are not aware of the issues that winch mounts like this pose.

I like high tight and hidden winch mounts for clearance issues, but it does introduce some issues and challenges. Most vehicles these days just don't have a ton of space for a winch up front without adding a TON of front overhang. The classic jeep design gets a gold star for this with the grill set back from the front of the frame horns a fair bit.

 

[Metcalf]

Looks like driver error to me, and was stated wrong vehicle or vehicle set up for the trail.

The vehicle survived a week of wheeling moab including Pritchett Canyon other than this failure....soooooo.....

I blame this failure on the winch thimble. This design creates a ton of extra leverage on the hawse which can cause failure. Better material on the hawse could have helped, but having the thimble stick out an extra 3" just doesn't seam worth any benefit the provided.

 

[DaveInDenver]

I blame this failure on the winch thimble. This design creates a ton of extra leverage on the hawse which can cause failure. Better material on the hawse could have helped, but having the thimble stick out an extra 3" just doesn't seam worth any benefit the provided.

It's a matter of opinion so what you or I think along with $5 gets you a coffee at Starbucks. I run a safety thimble personally because I like the reduced risk of losing a finger and prefer a shackle over a hook. If that means some theoretical increasing risk on a fairlead then fine. I think any perceived damaging leverage could be minimized by running a rubber bumper behind the thimble anyway. I don't much like hawse fairleads either for what that's worth and prefer Delrin rollers enough to even have squirreled away a spare set of Viking. The fairlead is boxed-in and protected I feel reasonably well on my ARB, which is of course absolutely terrible for clearance anyway so the whole point is moot.

 

[Metcalf]

It's a matter of opinion so what you or I think along with $5 gets you a coffee at Starbucks. I run a safety thimble personally because I like the reduced risk of losing a finger and prefer a shackle over a hook. If that means some theoretical increasing risk on a fairlead then fine. I think any perceived damaging leverage could be minimized by running a rubber bumper behind the thimble anyway. I don't much like hawse fairleads either for what that's worth and prefer Delrin rollers enough to even have squirreled away a spare set of Viking. The fairlead is boxed-in and protected I feel reasonably well on my ARB, which is of course absolutely terrible for clearance anyway so the whole point is moot.

As a note. This thimble had a rubber pad on the back.

The least amount of connections possible is generally the safest rigging system. Thimbles like this add another failure point to the system which seems a bit of a step backwards. I'm wondering if they didnt solve an issue that might not have been an issue in the first place? I've been winching for 30 years or so now, I haven't had an issue keeping my fingers out of the way.

A note on needing a shackle. I think whatever device you need to connect to your rigging system should be on the winch full time. This is one place a hook generally excels. I was on a trip last season where a rig came VERY close to rolling over forward. It was only quick thinking using the winch on the trailing vehicle as a tether that kept him safe enough for a full recovery. I was able to hit the disconnect on the winch, pull just out enough line to hook the rear of the vehicle, engage the winch, and then have the driver put tension on the line by backing up slightly. This was all done without having to wait for anyone to dig out a shackle, use a tool to loosen a shackle, or find the winch controller. I'm in the camp where the less you need to dig out the better, especially if it involves opening doors, digging out gear, undoing cargo straps, etc.

 

[jadmt]

The vehicle survived a week of wheeling moab including Pritchett Canyon other than this failure....soooooo.....

I blame this failure on the winch thimble. This design creates a ton of extra leverage on the hawse which can cause failure. Better material on the hawse could have helped, but having the thimble stick out an extra 3" just doesn't seam worth any benefit the provided.

if the vehicle survived Pritchett canyon then probably was not the vehicle set up so I would go back to driver error. Not sure why he or she or they would not have pulled the line a bit like was already pointed out. I run a flat link and while I have not done Pritchett canyon I have done behind the rocks, Golden Spike, Rose Garden Hill and most of the other tougher rated trails in Moab and never have had an issue.

 

[Metcalf]

if the vehicle survived Pritchett canyon then probably was not the vehicle set up so I would go back to driver error. Not sure why he or she or they would not have pulled the line a bit like was already pointed out. I run a flat link and while I have not done Pritchett canyon I have done behind the rocks, Golden Spike, Rose Garden Hill and most of the other tougher rated trails in Moab and never have had an issue.

When you try hard stuff things happen. If you push your vehicle you will find weak links. Its easy to armchair and say he should have done something different. Personally, I would try to fix the root issue so you don't have to try and drive around it.

Pulling line out may have worked, but it could have also exposed the winch line to more damage if it was the rub point. That is one thing that the thimble does well, protect the winch line.

 

[DaveInDenver]

The least amount of connections possible is generally the safest rigging system. Thimbles like this add another failure point to the system which seems a bit of a step backwards.

A note on needing a shackle. I think whatever device you need to connect to your rigging system should be on the winch full time. This is one place a hook generally excels. I was on a trip last season where a rig came VERY close to rolling over forward. It was only quick thinking using the winch on the trailing vehicle as a tether that kept him safe enough for a full recovery. I was able to hit the disconnect on the winch, pull just out enough line to hook the rear of the vehicle, engage the winch, and then have the driver put tension on the line by backing up slightly. This was all done without having to wait for anyone to dig out a shackle, use a tool to loosen a shackle, or find the winch controller. I'm in the camp where the less you need to dig out the better, especially if it involves opening doors, digging out gear, undoing cargo straps, etc.

We're always going to disagree on several points here, so suffice to say my belief is the fewest connections that are properly rated is the safest rigging system. Fewer or inappropriate parts isn't safer just because there's less mass. The safest rigging is the one that doesn't fail.

I know the point you'll make, "What if a bumper/clevis/hook fails and the whole rigging breaks!" Yeah, that would be a problem, I don't disagree with that. It doesn't justify using rigging that can't be rated or tested the rest of the time to me.

So as far as this notion of emergency winching, sorry, I'd rather take the time to rig it right. I've yet to be in situation where winching was as time critical as you seem to find yourself. I've been in plenty of situations where we took the time to connect a recovery rope or a strap ahead of time, though.

 

[Metcalf]

We're always going to disagree on several points here, so suffice to say my belief is the fewest connections that are properly rated is the safest rigging system. Fewer inappropriate parts isn't safer just because there's less mass. The safest rigging is the one that doesn't fail. So as far as this notion of emergency winching, sorry, I'd rather take the time to rig it right. I've yet to be in situation where winching was as time critical as you seem to find yourself. I've been in plenty of situations where we took the time to hang a recovery rope or a strap ahead of time, though.

There wasn't any 'wrong' winching in the situation I explained? The only unconventional aspect was using the vehicle to put pressure on the line prior to digging out the winch controller prior to a powered recovery to stabilize the vehicle.

What parts did I propose that where not properly rated? The true function of most winch thimbles is only to prevent sucking the thimble through the hawse. It may provide some protection for the winch line, but in many cases it requires multiple extra connection points. That is what bothers me the most, it doesn't streamline the process at all. There are a few products that are a true thimble replacement, but they typically retain a lot of the same issues with clearance and additional gear required to rig them up.

I agree that we will likely disagree.