Winch, now what? Best/most important winch accessories
- Thread starter youngPreacher
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youngPreacher
Observer
But if my vehicle weighs right at 5000#, wouldn't a wll of 10,000# be sufficient for most recoveries?
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Airmapper
Inactive Member
Maybe someone who works in the field can clarify, but I recall reading somewhere that WLL is a limit set for applications where loads are to be suspended in a manner which will place persons on the ground below them, or persons physically on the suspended object in danger. I'd say that is much more critical than applications where everything is still on the surface of the earth.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Working_load_limit
According to this WLL is typically a 5:1 ratio of safety, specifically for lifting or suspending loads. If I gather some of the recommendations here correctly, you are recommending a 2:1 safety on top of that. Now, I'm all for being safe, but this seems excessive. These are vehicles on the ground we are dealing with here. Now it would be a cool trick to suspend a vehicle with a winch to recover it, but I don't see many crane booms attached to 4x4's.
If the mean breaking strength is say, 3:1 over the line breaking strength, I'd say that is a reasonably safe margin. If you all are suggesting 10:1 safety margins, none of us have big enough pin holes in our bumpers to accept the shackle pins of anything with that rating, we need to go to a shipyard or an industrial crane rigging supply to meet those standards. Maybe by those standards, those Bro-dozers had the right idea all along:
If I'm doing my math right (check me I'm not great at it) on a 12,000lb winch, if we do a triple line pull, there is a possibility if you max everything out to hit 36,000lbs of tension. Given a pull will have a minimum of 2 anchor points, either point can receive 18,000lbs of pull on it.
For a 9,000lb winch, 27,000lbs if you max everything out. 13,500lbs on any point.
I'm all for advocating safety margins, but how about keeping it within realistic probabilities. If my numbers are wrong, please correct them and post with the maximum load any anchor point will receive, a 2:1 margin over that seems quite reasonable given the likelihood of maxing out a winch is remote, given most people don't even use heavy enough gauge cable to deliver the amperage necessary to get a max pull from their winch.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Working_load_limit
According to this WLL is typically a 5:1 ratio of safety, specifically for lifting or suspending loads. If I gather some of the recommendations here correctly, you are recommending a 2:1 safety on top of that. Now, I'm all for being safe, but this seems excessive. These are vehicles on the ground we are dealing with here. Now it would be a cool trick to suspend a vehicle with a winch to recover it, but I don't see many crane booms attached to 4x4's.
If the mean breaking strength is say, 3:1 over the line breaking strength, I'd say that is a reasonably safe margin. If you all are suggesting 10:1 safety margins, none of us have big enough pin holes in our bumpers to accept the shackle pins of anything with that rating, we need to go to a shipyard or an industrial crane rigging supply to meet those standards. Maybe by those standards, those Bro-dozers had the right idea all along:
If I'm doing my math right (check me I'm not great at it) on a 12,000lb winch, if we do a triple line pull, there is a possibility if you max everything out to hit 36,000lbs of tension. Given a pull will have a minimum of 2 anchor points, either point can receive 18,000lbs of pull on it.
For a 9,000lb winch, 27,000lbs if you max everything out. 13,500lbs on any point.
I'm all for advocating safety margins, but how about keeping it within realistic probabilities. If my numbers are wrong, please correct them and post with the maximum load any anchor point will receive, a 2:1 margin over that seems quite reasonable given the likelihood of maxing out a winch is remote, given most people don't even use heavy enough gauge cable to deliver the amperage necessary to get a max pull from their winch.
mowerman
Adventurer
When you do a double line pull or the like, you don't increase the pull strength of the winch you merely halve the load placed on the winch. A 10,000 lb winch is still a 10,000lb winch, but a double line will increase the mechanical advantage.
The same applies to the number of turns of rope on the winch drum. A winch provides maximum pull with fewest layers of rope on the drum, so sometimes a snatch block can be used to reduce the number of turns on the drum by allowing more rope to be spooled out.
Also lifting factors for things like shackles and straps are not actually the same when the same equipment is used to pull. I can't remember exactly how it works but I think the safety factors are different.
This is why I recommended talking to a guy who supplies pro lifting gear, cos he will know all about it - lifting safety is clearly paramount if you are selling stuff, and he will know all about converting to pull strength.
The same applies to the number of turns of rope on the winch drum. A winch provides maximum pull with fewest layers of rope on the drum, so sometimes a snatch block can be used to reduce the number of turns on the drum by allowing more rope to be spooled out.
Also lifting factors for things like shackles and straps are not actually the same when the same equipment is used to pull. I can't remember exactly how it works but I think the safety factors are different.
This is why I recommended talking to a guy who supplies pro lifting gear, cos he will know all about it - lifting safety is clearly paramount if you are selling stuff, and he will know all about converting to pull strength.
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Speaking of shackles . . .
If you take the trouble to buy rated, high quality shackles--and you should--you want to take excellent care of them. While storing them on the outside in the shackle holes may look macho and wild-and-wooly, doing that IMO advertises first-class dumbness. The weather and road gunk will not treat the shackle well. Rust and corrosion can set up making the pins hard to screw. Also, when hou have to set up a recovery, the shackles hanging there are in the way, taking unnecessary time to remove. If you have both 3/4-7/8" and 1/2-3/4" shackles, you may want a different size on your pull points than what's hanging there. Last, why expose something that expensive to thieves? I'm a big believer in storing my shackles inside in two bags: one for carrying a few shackles and a block up the hill for "normal" pulls, and the other in a larger bag with the other stuff for complex recoveries that justify my making another trip to the Jeep.
Jerry Lewis
If you take the trouble to buy rated, high quality shackles--and you should--you want to take excellent care of them. While storing them on the outside in the shackle holes may look macho and wild-and-wooly, doing that IMO advertises first-class dumbness. The weather and road gunk will not treat the shackle well. Rust and corrosion can set up making the pins hard to screw. Also, when hou have to set up a recovery, the shackles hanging there are in the way, taking unnecessary time to remove. If you have both 3/4-7/8" and 1/2-3/4" shackles, you may want a different size on your pull points than what's hanging there. Last, why expose something that expensive to thieves? I'm a big believer in storing my shackles inside in two bags: one for carrying a few shackles and a block up the hill for "normal" pulls, and the other in a larger bag with the other stuff for complex recoveries that justify my making another trip to the Jeep.
Jerry Lewis
SSF556
SE Expedition Society
Good advice..plus they would be easy targets for someone.
now that you have a good collection of accessories,
go out and practice using them, see what you can or can't do.
We have a few club days cleaning up around the area, utilising our winches to shift dead fall trees and such.
great practice, often requiring multi vehicle hook ups and some coordination and planning.
Doing his,we have built driver training and recovery training areas for the use of club members, new and old.
go out and practice using them, see what you can or can't do.
We have a few club days cleaning up around the area, utilising our winches to shift dead fall trees and such.
great practice, often requiring multi vehicle hook ups and some coordination and planning.
Doing his,we have built driver training and recovery training areas for the use of club members, new and old.
LR Max
Local Oaf
X2. Get out there and see what happens with a normal flat pull. I've got a big parking lot here at the office and use a tree at the end when I need to re-spool my winch rope. Something similar, learn what the winch sounds like, feels like, connect everything.
Also, always good to un-spool your winch and wind it back in about once a month. Solid maintenance as the biggest killers of winches is lack of use.
Classes are good if you can find em. Also youtube has many videos on using a winch. A single line pull is pretty much the most common so that is what you need to concentrate on.
Lastly, don't leave your shackles on your vehicle when you aren't using them. They will either walk away, or like I experienced a few weeks ago, froze. Yes, they were frozen. I couldn't use my shackle that was on my front bumper. Whomp Whomp.
Also, always good to un-spool your winch and wind it back in about once a month. Solid maintenance as the biggest killers of winches is lack of use.
Classes are good if you can find em. Also youtube has many videos on using a winch. A single line pull is pretty much the most common so that is what you need to concentrate on.
Lastly, don't leave your shackles on your vehicle when you aren't using them. They will either walk away, or like I experienced a few weeks ago, froze. Yes, they were frozen. I couldn't use my shackle that was on my front bumper. Whomp Whomp.
MOguy
Explorer
Maybe someone who works in the field can clarify, but I recall reading somewhere that WLL is a limit set for applications where loads are to be suspended in a manner which will place persons on the ground below them, or persons physically on the suspended object in danger. I'd say that is much more critical than applications where everything is still on the surface of the earth.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Working_load_limit
According to this WLL is typically a 5:1 ratio of safety, specifically for lifting or suspending loads. If I gather some of the recommendations here correctly, you are recommending a 2:1 safety on top of that. Now, I'm all for being safe, but this seems excessive. These are vehicles on the ground we are dealing with here. Now it would be a cool trick to suspend a vehicle with a winch to recover it, but I don't see many crane booms attached to 4x4's.
If the mean breaking strength is say, 3:1 over the line breaking strength, I'd say that is a reasonably safe margin. If you all are suggesting 10:1 safety margins, none of us have big enough pin holes in our bumpers to accept the shackle pins of anything with that rating, we need to go to a shipyard or an industrial crane rigging supply to meet those standards. Maybe by those standards, those Bro-dozers had the right idea all along:
If I'm doing my math right (check me I'm not great at it) on a 12,000lb winch, if we do a triple line pull, there is a possibility if you max everything out to hit 36,000lbs of tension. Given a pull will have a minimum of 2 anchor points, either point can receive 18,000lbs of pull on it.
For a 9,000lb winch, 27,000lbs if you max everything out. 13,500lbs on any point.
I'm all for advocating safety margins, but how about keeping it within realistic probabilities. If my numbers are wrong, please correct them and post with the maximum load any anchor point will receive, a 2:1 margin over that seems quite reasonable given the likelihood of maxing out a winch is remote, given most people don't even use heavy enough gauge cable to deliver the amperage necessary to get a max pull from their winch.
That is for creating systems for lifting loads, not winches designed to drag things. There is a safety margin built into that so in case something is being lifted and it drops a bit that shock to the system won't cause a failure. When you tie knots in the line it is looses strength, when the rope goes around turns it loses strength. if it rubs on something the friction (heat) will cause the rope to lose strength. I work for a search and rescue school and I buy much of the equipment. Those are the type of rating we deal with when it comes to rope rescue equipment.
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