Will Automakers Get the Market and Make Simple Vehicles Again?

superbuickguy

Explorer
what's 'funny' about all of this is the question is for US and European cars. GM, Ford, Toyota and all the others who sell cars in the US have cars which fit this bill that are only available overseas. Toyota makes an awesome pickup that is as basic as they come - but will only come here after the 25 year exemption runs... and then they won't then because those trucks are used and used up at 25 years.... don't believe me? check out this website, it also informs why you see Toyotas pretty much everywhere there is poverty and war.... oh, and if you're curious about why, rarely, US rigs - Hummer was doing this as well but, of course, hate killed that too....
https://www.toyota-gib.com/eng/index.html
 

Clutch

<---Pass
what's 'funny' about all of this is the question is for US and European cars. GM, Ford, Toyota and all the others who sell cars in the US have cars which fit this bill that are only available overseas. Toyota makes an awesome pickup that is as basic as they come - but will only come here after the 25 year exemption runs... and then they won't then because those trucks are used and used up at 25 years.... don't believe me? check out this website, it also informs why you see Toyotas pretty much everywhere there is poverty and war.... oh, and if you're curious about why, rarely, US rigs - Hummer was doing this as well but, of course, hate killed that too....
https://www.toyota-gib.com/eng/index.html


Are those really all that simple though? They all have modern running gear, meet safety regs and Euro 5 emission standards.

Only thing that is different is that they have basic no frills interiors, and can get manual transmissions.
 

Comanche Scott

Expedition Leader
With safety regs getting tighter and tighter, and autonomous vehicles upon us. In 15 years 3 months, think we will be still allowed to drive our own vehicles? :p

Flip Wilson could make a holographic return to court rooms with a new play on his old schtick... "The computer made me do it!!"

As long as "autonomous" driving includes pulling a 5th wheel camp trailer... I sure hope so!
How cool would it be to cruise through nature taking pictures, or sit between the kids, elbowing and sticking our tongues out at them, and asking them "Are we there yet?".

I could see the volume of traffic going up exponentially with the increase in autonomous vehicles.
Next thing you know the computers would be having honk-fests with each other, as real grid lock envelopes the country.

OK, so maybe it's not such a good idea for everyone to have this availability. But for responsible people like us, it would be OK. ;)
 

Clutch

<---Pass
Flip Wilson could make a holographic return to court rooms with a new play on his old schtick... "The computer made me do it!!"

As long as "autonomous" driving includes pulling a 5th wheel camp trailer... I sure hope so!
How cool would it be to cruise through nature taking pictures, or sit between the kids, elbowing and sticking our tongues out at them, and asking them "Are we there yet?".

I could see the volume of traffic going up exponentially with the increase in autonomous vehicles.
Next thing you know the computers would be having honk-fests with each other, as real grid lock envelopes the country.

OK, so maybe it's not such a good idea for everyone to have this availability. But for responsible people like us, it would be OK. ;)

Ha ha!

I would imagine traffic would get better...when a red light turns green there would be no hesitation, they all just simultaneously just go ...or maybe no traffic lights at all, since they could slip between each other not hitting one another. That would give the passengers a thrill!

Being able to sleep through Texas wouldn't be a bad thing either. :D

[video=vimeo;37751380]https://vimeo.com/37751380[/video]
 

Comanche Scott

Expedition Leader
Another benefit based on this video;
Riding in the back seat with traffic like that, I bet a lot more people would go to church! :eek:

Reminds me of a few third world countries I've been to... lol
 

Clutch

<---Pass
Another benefit based on this video;
Riding in the back seat with traffic like that, I bet a lot more people would go to church! :eek:

Reminds me of a few third world countries I've been to... lol

Ha ha! Bet they would!

I was thinking of India when I saw that video....controlled chaos!

 

rruff

Explorer
I was thinking of India when I saw that video....controlled chaos!

One benefit of self-driving cars is that they should be able to negotiate that sort traffic very well, greatly reducing travel time. Roundabouts will be a lot more common. Cars will coordinate with each other automatically. And I suspect the wealthy will be able to buy priority code, so they can sail through traffic even faster.
 

al_burpe

Observer
Are those really all that simple though? They all have modern running gear, meet safety regs and Euro 5 emission standards.

Only thing that is different is that they have basic no frills interiors, and can get manual transmissions.

I can't speak for all of those vehicles, but 70s series LC really are simpler especially the ones they sell in developing markets without safety regulations. When I lived in South Sudan, the NGO I worked for used almost exclusively the 70s series LCs. There wasn't a single one with airbags, even the brand new ones, and only forward facing seats had seat belts. My personal vehicle while there was a 1997 Rav4 and it was far more complicated and difficult to work on than the LCs especially the pickups. You are right though that the 200 series, Prados, and Fortunners are just as complicated as most of the vehicles we have in North America. All that being said, unless I was spending more than 50% of my time on rough roads I wouldn't want a 70 series for my daily driver. The vehicles sold in the US are just as capable as going the same places, they just can't take the constant beating that LC will without breaking. If you are not giving it that constant full time abuse, then you really don't need that extra toughness. I often had to drive one long distances, and I would be so sore afterwards even if it was on a smooth road.

10891984_10152973860319162_4633200436518268457_n.jpg
 

Clutch

<---Pass
One benefit of self-driving cars is that they should be able to negotiate that sort traffic very well, greatly reducing travel time. Roundabouts will be a lot more common. Cars will coordinate with each other automatically. And I suspect the wealthy will be able to buy priority code, so they can sail through traffic even faster.

I used be against the whole self driving car thing, now after dealing with a commute for the past 3.5 years....it never fails...some jackhole runs out of talent, crashes into the vehicle in front of them, then it all comes to a grinding halt...can't even drive in a straight line, betting most are caused by cell phones. Self driving cars "should' eliminate some of that.

@your last sentence: Oh any good hacker could get around that...which brings up a thought...man, I bet hackers will have a field day when everything goes automatous.

I can't speak for all of those vehicles, but 70s series LC really are simpler especially the ones they sell in developing markets without safety regulations. When I lived in South Sudan, the NGO I worked for used almost exclusively the 70s series LCs. There wasn't a single one with airbags, even the brand new ones, and only forward facing seats had seat belts. My personal vehicle while there was a 1997 Rav4 and it was far more complicated and difficult to work on than the LCs especially the pickups. You are right though that the 200 series, Prados, and Fortunners are just as complicated as most of the vehicles we have in North America. All that being said, unless I was spending more than 50% of my time on rough roads I wouldn't want a 70 series for my daily driver. The vehicles sold in the US are just as capable as going the same places, they just can't take the constant beating that LC will without breaking. If you are not giving it that constant full time abuse, then you really don't need that extra toughness. I often had to drive one long distances, and I would be so sore afterwards even if it was on a smooth road.

View attachment 435662

Were they older LC70's or the new ones. I posted a link in here somewhere about they are all updated now.

EDIT: Here is the link

Or can they still get away with the bare bones model in certain markets, brand new 2018's being sold is what I am asking.
 
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rruff

Explorer
@your last sentence: Oh any good hacker could get around that...which brings up a thought...man, I bet hackers will have a field day when everything goes automatous.

It will be highly illegal to hack the systems of course. It will be very hard to do, and big fines if you are caught.
 

Clutch

<---Pass
It will be highly illegal to hack the systems of course. It will be very hard to do, and big fines if you are caught.

I am sure there are some out there saying "Challenge Accepted!" :D

I can barely remember my password to log in to my laptop...so in the future when it goes all kooky, it wasn't me! :)
 

Dalko43

Explorer
I can't speak for all of those vehicles, but 70s series LC really are simpler especially the ones they sell in developing markets without safety regulations. When I lived in South Sudan, the NGO I worked for used almost exclusively the 70s series LCs. There wasn't a single one with airbags, even the brand new ones, and only forward facing seats had seat belts. My personal vehicle while there was a 1997 Rav4 and it was far more complicated and difficult to work on than the LCs especially the pickups. You are right though that the 200 series, Prados, and Fortunners are just as complicated as most of the vehicles we have in North America. All that being said, unless I was spending more than 50% of my time on rough roads I wouldn't want a 70 series for my daily driver. The vehicles sold in the US are just as capable as going the same places, they just can't take the constant beating that LC will without breaking. If you are not giving it that constant full time abuse, then you really don't need that extra toughness. I often had to drive one long distances, and I would be so sore afterwards even if it was on a smooth road.

View attachment 435662

1) Those bare bones LC 70's sold in overseas markets are still pretty complicated: electronically controlled v8 turbodiesel with common rail injection; the most recent ones have EGR and DPF emissions controls; more variants are starting to incorporate additional air bag protection. I think there might be a few markets where Toyota still sells the old, pre-emissions inline 6 diesel in its LC70's, but generally-speaking the LC 70 of today is a bit more complicated than the earlier versions. Andrew St. Pierre White even mentioned how his new 2017 LC Troopy would have trouble running on high-sulfur diesel during his upcoming Trans-America trip:


2) For as well-built as Toyota 4x4's are, I do think people tend to overhype them a bit. I constantly hear the anecdotal stories of how only LC's can survive the brutal work for overseas NGO's and industrial applications. Honestly, I think the 3/4 and 1 ton trucks we have here in North America get worked just as hard, arguably harder if you look at what kind of loads they are hauling and towing. I've driven a few bare bones Hilux's and LC's in my times overseas. They are spartan and capable vehicles, but I wouldn't hesitate to put a Ford or Ram 3/4 ton through the same kind of abuse. I think a lot of 4x4 aficionados tend to overlook just how capable modern American trucks really are.

Honestly, I don't get what this thread is about. If people want spartan, bare bones pickup's, they can still get them in the 1/2 and 3/4 ton variety. Even midsized trucks have gotten better at offering spartan trim levels.
 

Clutch

<---Pass
Honestly, I don't get what this thread is about. If people want spartan, bare bones pickup's, they can still get them in the 1/2 and 3/4 ton variety. Even midsized trucks have gotten better at offering spartan trim levels.


Simple bare bones to me is carbureted gas engine or mechanical diesel, manual trans, hubs, windows...no AC, no power steering or brakes. Leaf springs all the way around...unless it is Ford F100/150 with solid axle/coil. And last but not least, an AM radio. :D

Pretty much this.

1972-ford-f250-highboy-4wd-4x4-pickup-truck-survivor-no-reserve-2.jpg


You'll like this Dalko:

 
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Dalko43

Explorer
Simple bare bones to me is carbureted gas engine or mechanical diesel, manual trans, hubs, windows...no AC, no power steering or brakes. Leaf springs all the way around...unless it is Ford F100/150 with solid axle/coil. And last but not least, an AM radio. :D

Why would you want that kind of vehicle? Less comfort, less efficiency, less power...and quite honestly those older mechanical, manual-everything trucks you fantasize about weren't all that reliable. Excepting some of the better built diesels, the engines were lucky to last 150k miles, even with frequent oil changes, and the truck platforms and bodies usually didn't last much longer.

Even the older mechanical diesels, as reliable as they were, aren't all that great when compared to the newer versions. They smelled like s$%t, weren't very responsive for highway driving, leaked oil and sounded like tractors (which I guess is cool for showboating on main street, but is unbearable for 5-8 hour highway trips).

Just get a F250 gasser with e-locker or a Power Wagon...they're very well-built, and will last much longer than anything built 15-20 years ago. Or get a modern (with SCR) diesel...they've seen a lot of fine-tuning and improvement in recent years.

I don't see the appeal or necessity of a dumbed-down, manual-everything truck.
 
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Clutch

<---Pass
Why would you want that kind of vehicle? Less comfort, less efficiency, less power...and quite honestly those older mechanical, manual-everything trucks you fantasize about weren't all that reliable. Excepting some of the better built diesels, the engines were lucky to last 150k miles, even with frequent oil changes, and the truck platforms and bodies usually didn't last much longer.

Even the older mechanical diesels, as reliable as they were, aren't all that great when compared to the newer versions. They smelled like s$%t, weren't very responsive for highway driving, leaked oil and sounded like tractors (which I guess is cool for showboating on main street, but is unbearable for 5-8 hour highway trips).

Just get a F250 gasser with e-locker or a Power Wagon...they're very well-built, and will last much longer than anything built 15-20 years ago. Or get a modern (with SCR) diesel...they've seen a lot of fine-tuning and improvement in recent years.

I don't see the appeal or necessity of a dumbed-down, manual-everything truck.

Some people want those older vehicles, even though they there were less reliable, because they can work on themselves. So I can see the appeal there...now-a-days you have to take a modern vehicle in because it is so complex, which means a hefty repair bill. You can't even check the transmission fluid yourself on a lot of the modern autos. My old air cooled VW's were about as basic as you could get, I can do an engine change in a couple hours, by myself along side a road. (and have!)

Dude on TW posted a good video on old vs. new:


Comfort is relative. Some people are fine with a basic vinyl seat, and wing windows... others need a seat with 10 way electric adjust, heated, cooled, massage... dual climate control, 10 cup holders, navigation, satellite radio espresso maker, a va-jay-jay warmer, etc...

Yes old diesels smelled, weren't as responsive, yadda yadda ya....but a lot less to go wrong. We had a bunch of older diesels in our earth moving equipment. Other than changing out the fuel filters...never had to touch them...today's diesels...repair bills can be rather high, what is the repair cost of the emission system alone?

Simply "just" buy a new F250 gasser or Power Wagon? Well, those are what $40K??? You can buy a used old truck for $5-10K which is pretty cheap to fix, and you can do most of the work in your driveway under a tree. That said the old truck is going to need to be fixed, and you're going to have to throw some money at. But it sure isn't going to be $40K. You can however buy a 2WD RC fullsize with a V6 for under $20K..that might be a better option. Do most people really need a 4WD 3/4 Ton truck??? By what I see on the road and how people use them, that answer would be no...but 2WD RC V6 trucks aren't cool...so they don't sell well to the public. Because we know that image is everything here in America. ;) :D

Truck below is EPA rated at 25 mpg...pretty damn good compared to the old stuff. Look at that price, under $17K...the dealer should have rows and rows of these things and have them flying off the lot (that dealer only had 3)...but people don't want the good ol' basic pick 'em up truck any more. They want the bedazzled crew cab suburban cowboy look at me I am tough chest beating truck guy (but shhh...don't tell anyone, I don't really need this and could fulfill most of my driving needs in a Prius) :D

28070632_10156190367464630_5949923916523076976_o.j  pg


Here is another nice little comparison. But I see a couple things where they could of done things cheaper, because it looks like they were trying to get the repair cost to equal what a new truck cost. Spoiler: They didn't need to drop a $9000 crate engine into it, and they paid labor cost for someone else to do the work. My neighbors down the street have about 6 square body Chevy's, from short bed 2WD RC's to 4WD CCLB to a Suburban and a couple in-between...he has a couple teenage kids, I have seen them do an engine swap in a weekend. Honestly that is refreshing to see. Dad is out there teaching his kids how to get their hands dirty (while most other kids are playing video games and taking selfies.) Those same kids go around the neighborhood each summer and ask to do yard work...which is extremely rare anymore these days.


Even though I posted that video....Those TFL guys don't seem like truck guys to me, none of them look like they have ever had a hard days work (manual labor) in their life. Which is pretty evident since they did none of the repair work themselves. Not even sure they should be testing trucks...seem like a bunch of pencil pushers with a camera. Or maybe that what "truck guys" are today...bunch of soft handed pudgy middle-aged men that don't know the difference between a spade and square nose shovel trying to look tough...and will never haul a load gravel, ever!

Now the Roadkill guys...they don't mind getting their hands dirty or the Dirt Every Day dudes...
 
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