Who ordered a New Defender ?

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gatorgrizz27

Active member
Was re-reading an Autocar article after the new Defender launch and caught this tidbit about the diesels...

Meanwhile, an additional, more powerful diesel engine is said to be under development for 2021. The six-cylinder D300 will deliver a 0-62mph time rumoured to be below 8sec and is being considered for launch in the US, as well as Europe.
Let’s hope this is legitimate, and would explain a lot. It would be a shame if LR followed the logic of “well we offered diesels in vehicles guys don’t want, and they weren’t big sellers, so we’re not going to put a diesel in a vehicle people are lining up to buy if we offer it with one.”

I can see it not being worth going through the EPA testing of their current diesels for one year, not to mention pissing off the guys who buy one with a small diesel out of the box, only to offer a more powerful one the next year. Most USA buyers care more about power and range than they do about all-out economy.

They might also be deliberately lowering the demand for them in order to be able to keep up with production and minimize first year teething issues. I tend to doubt that’s the case, but they may be smarter than I give them credit for.
 

DieselRanger

Well-known member
Diesel for 2021 MY but I highly doubt it will be a $12K adder. The Petrol MHEV is a very complicated engine, hence the $12K price.
The $12k add on isn't only for the engine. You apparently get bigger brakes, definitely get bigger wheels, and there are other things that become standard as well that are options on the P300.
 

Red90

Adventurer
The current diesels are shared with Ford so the development for US emissions was not a problem. Doing it for this one model is probably just too much expense.
 

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DieselRanger

Well-known member
The current diesels are shared with Ford so the development for US emissions was not a problem. Doing it for this one model is probably just too much expense.
In the US, the Lion Td6 engine was certified only by Land Rover since Ford didn't start using it here until the MY19 F150 added it as a "PowerStroke" engine. JLR need to replace the Td6 since their contract with Ford to supply engines has ended, necessitating the Ingenium development. The full-fat Range Rover, RRS, and Disco all use the Td6 in the US, but they've switched to a twin-turbo version called the SD6 in the UK and most Euro markets. I don't know the take rate in the US but it seems about half the D5s I see here in Colorado are diesels and many RRS's are as well, even in SoCal where I travel frequently. Don't know about the RR, but I'd say if you're going over a hundred large anyway you're probably spec'ing the supercharged V8 because why wouldn't you?

Would expect they'll certify the I6 for the Defender first if they bring it here, then after a year or so roll it out to the other models, but I'd wager they may wait to see what the regulatory climate looks like in 2020 before they make that decision.
 

Red90

Adventurer
They won’t continue diesels in the Disco or RR. It is not selling enough o justify the development cost and you can’t justify it for one model. Land Rover volumes are just way too small.
 

Red90

Adventurer
And the last one they would ever do is the large engine. Emissions are grams per mile so getting it within the rules is much harder than the smaller engines.
 

JackW

Explorer
If you look under the hood of a RRS or Discovery 5 it is obvious they designed the engine compartment for an inline six - the V-6 engine sits pretty far back leaving plenty of room for an inline motor.
The big question is whether they will decide to certify the motor in the US - I'm hoping they will see the potential of the diesel six in this market.
It's encouraging to hear that the diesel Discovery is so popular in Colorado and California. I don't see a lot of them here in Georgia but my local dealer says they have sold quite a few of them.
 

blackangie

Well-known member
If you look under the hood of a RRS or Discovery 5 it is obvious they designed the engine compartment for an inline six - the V-6 engine sits pretty far back leaving plenty of room for an inline motor.
The big question is whether they will decide to certify the motor in the US - I'm hoping they will see the potential of the diesel six in this market.
It's encouraging to hear that the diesel Discovery is so popular in Colorado and California. I don't see a lot of them here in Georgia but my local dealer says they have sold quite a few of them.
LR Engineers have also said it fits a V8, BMW V8 Hybrid SVX anyone?



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mpinco

Expedition Leader
The $12k add on isn't only for the engine. You apparently get bigger brakes, definitely get bigger wheels, and there are other things that become standard as well that are options on the P300.
Sure but that doesn't account for more than $500. MHEV is expensive technology and includes Li-Ion batteries, distributed control buses and power transfer technologies to move energy to and from the batteries.

Mild Hybrid Electric Vehicles (MHEV) – examples
 

DieselRanger

Well-known member
Sure but that doesn't account for more than $500. MHEV is expensive technology and includes Li-Ion batteries, distributed control buses and power transfer technologies to move energy to and from the batteries.

Mild Hybrid Electric Vehicles (MHEV) – examples
If you look at the spec differences between a Defender with the P300 and the Defender with the P400 in SE base specification, it's way more than $500.

Compare these two specs - the only thing I selected differently was the engine, no add-on options:

P300: https://build.landrover/3CB818E4

P400: https://build.landrover/6B3C45BA

Among the differences:
- larger wheels
- Meridian sound system vs a "sound system"
- "premium" LED headlights with signature DRL
- 12-way memory leather and fabric power seats vs 8-way "semi-powered" fabric seats
- full electronic interactive dash vs analog dials with TFT center display
- fog lights
- Clear Sight rearview mirror
- Clear exit monitor
- rear traffic monitor

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mpinco

Expedition Leader
If you look at the spec differences between a Defender with the P300 and the Defender with the P400 in SE base specification, it's way more than $500.

Compare these two specs - the only thing I selected differently was the engine, no add-on options:

P300: https://build.landrover/3CB818E4

P400: https://build.landrover/6B3C45BA

Among the differences:
- larger wheels
- Meridian sound system vs a "sound system"
- "premium" LED headlights with signature DRL
- 12-way memory leather and fabric power seats vs 8-way "semi-powered" fabric seats
- full electronic interactive dash vs analog dials with TFT center display
- fog lights
- Clear Sight rearview mirror
- Clear exit monitor
- rear traffic monitor

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MHEV's are a new architecture, not simply a alternative main engine (4cyl, 6cyl, 8cyl, gas, diesel). MHEV shuts down the engine below 11mph and therefore all subsystems dependent on engine power now need to switch over to electric power.

HYBRID EVOQUE – SO WHAT IS MHEV?

Mercedes adds $6K to the same 2.0L engine when adding a 85 kW electric motor to the 2.0L ICE. I tried to find a price for the Belt integrated Starter Generator (BiSG). Too early. Yes, your engine now has a integrated generator/starter belt subsystem with control to transmit power to/from the transmission.

So while JLR buried the cost of MHEV by adding features, the cost adder is several thousands of $$$, north of $6K and probably somewhere in the range of $8K. Now, let's talk long term maintenance cost ................

MHEV is interesting technology but significantly exposes you to long term dealer maintenance/repair.
 

blackangie

Well-known member
MHEV's are a new architecture, not simply a alternative main engine (4cyl, 6cyl, 8cyl, gas, diesel). MHEV shuts down the engine below 11mph and therefore all subsystems dependent on engine power now need to switch over to electric power.

HYBRID EVOQUE – SO WHAT IS MHEV?

Mercedes adds $6K to the same 2.0L engine when adding a 85 kW electric motor to the 2.0L ICE. I tried to find a price for the Belt integrated Starter Generator (BiSG). Too early. Yes, your engine now has a integrated generator/starter belt subsystem with control to transmit power to/from the transmission.

So while JLR buried the cost of MHEV by adding features, the cost adder is several thousands of $$$, north of $6K and probably somewhere in the range of $8K. Now, let's talk long term maintenance cost ................

MHEV is interesting technology but significantly exposes you to long term dealer maintenance/repair.
Some questions with the integrated dcdc, will we be able to patch solar into this system, to run fridges etc.

So not having to install another dcdc converter.

Also having a generator, are they less seceptable to water/mud damage then alternators


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DieselRanger

Well-known member
They won’t continue diesels in the Disco or RR. It is not selling enough o justify the development cost and you can’t justify it for one model. Land Rover volumes are just way too small.
Diesel vehicles have always sold better in the West and in the South than they do in the Midwest and Northeast. I recall driving through Iowa and sweating whether I could find non-farm diesel fuel...I stopped at three gas stations, where E85 was all over the place but not a drop of diesel. Thankfully I found a Love's or some such with about 60 miles of indicated range, and I had to use the included fuel funnel since the nozzles were too large. Don't have that problem out west.

How do you know they won't continue them in the Disco, RRS, or RR? There's no press on that. To the contrary, the D5 continues to sell well with sales recently setting a record in the US for the month of July, with LR sales up 4 or 5% year over year. Furthermore, they expanded the availability of the Td6 engine to the base SE trim for MY2019...don't think they'd be doing that if it wasn't selling well. It's also been selling here since the 2015 model year in the RR and RRS, during the height of Dieselgate...the take rate must be high enough because they keep offering them.

The plans to bring an Ingenium inline-6 have been on the books for some time, planned for MY21:


It's being designed to CARB's standards, which are the strictest in the world...why do that if you're not going to offer it in the US?

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mpinco

Expedition Leader
I meant they would not offer them in the US. They will the rest of the world.
From what I have read/seen LR will offer the Ingenium based 6-cyl D300 diesel in the US. I believe it is a Defender 130 option which is a 2022 model? (released fall of 2021)
 
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