What makes Toyotas so reliable?

[Todd n Natalie]

I'm hoping the upcoming Tundra has a higher payload then it does now. Might be worth a look. Have to see when it's revealed.

 

[BigSwede]

There is a reason Toyota has waited this long to implement turbo engines throughout much of their range. Higher-stressed motors aren't as reliable on average. But fuel economy requirements are forcing their hand.

 

[MTVR]

Thanks for the links. I found this chart very telling.

View attachment 635497

Where the heck do those numbers come from? Survey responses from lay people (owners)?

Hummer is almost at the top of the list, even higher than Porsche? Hummer hasn't produced a consumer vehicle for 10 years, and they were utter cr@p even when they were new.

 

[Todd n Natalie]

There is a reason Toyota has waited this long to implement turbo engines throughout much of their range. Higher-stressed motors aren't as reliable on average. But fuel economy requirements are forcing their hand.

I'd rather see them go the PHEV / Hybrid route.

 

[ITTOG]

Where the heck do those numbers come from? Survey responses from lay people (owners)?

Hummer is almost at the top of the list, even higher than Porsche? Hummer hasn't produced a consumer vehicle for 10 years, and they were utter cr@p even when they were new.

From the site...

Dashboard Light is our attempt to offer free information about the long-term reliability of vehicles, forever.

When you search for the long-term reliability of any used car at Dashboard Light, you’re looking at the collective results of over a million vehicles that have been independently inspected by ASE certified mechanics and professional car buyers.

Our study, now called the Long-Term Quality Index, is over four years old and has been designed to focus specifically on those older vehicles that fall off the radar as vehicles age.

Unlike J.D. Power, which focuses their studies on the earliest portions of a vehicles life, and Consumer Reports, which regulates its study to surveys filled out by owners of late model vehicles, LTQI has been designed to assess the long-term reliability of used cars from the point they are three years old to the end of its life cycle.

But do not look at these as absolute numbers. They are relative. Just because a car may show number one on the list, it is probably better to think about it as "clearly in the top 10%, or even top 20%". Subjective ratings are always relative and not exact.

 

[DaveInDenver]

I was just reflecting after seeing this - I have had my FJC for 6 years and 80,000 miles (it had 50,000 when I bought it so is up to 130,000 now), and it has never been in the shop. I did go to the dealer once to get a little rubber piece that fell off the rear door opening but that's it.

I'm sure that XJLT will say the FJ is old tech, and it is, but the older I get the more I treasure reliability over flash.

This has not been my experience going from a 1991 Truck (Hilux) to a 2008 Tacoma. Is it better than Ford (or anyone else)? I dunno, perhaps. But I owned the old truck from 2000 to 2015 (I took it from about 100K to 287K ). It was affected by one issue that wasn't my fault, the steering relay rod recall. I got that truck after being fed up with all the problems I had with my mid-90s Ranger.

OTOH this Tacoma since 2015 (I got it at 42K as a CPO from a dealer and it's at 103K now) has had a few issues and recalls. The big one is frame rot but also clock spring wiring harness replacement in the steering column, broken rear leaf spring clip, failed seat belt retractors, a rear driveshaft u-joint issue, front diff bearing failure and a clutch release bearing issue.

I had no doubt in my mind that the 1991 would last and I trusted the heck out of it. But it was at the point it needed a pretty serious refreshing - I was not gentle on that truck. My mistake was assuming the Tacoma was just an updated version of those old trucks. It's not. It's lighter duty, it's made cheaper. It would have been better now to put the money into a restoration than to have replaced it but what's done is done. I doubt at 25 years and 300K this truck is going to still be nearly as tight and trouble-free as my old truck was.

How much is internal problems due to the Tacoma being kind of a hybrid, not really being a Hilux or 120/150 series and using domestic supplier adaptations of Toyota sub-assemblies or external just trying to meet regulation and market demands I can't say. I do think the 4Runner/FJC is a noticeably better designed and built truck. It's also 100% Toyota, made in Japan, which I don't think is a small difference. Tacomas use a fair bit of Delphi and Dana/Spicer in place of Aisin and Denso. The frame issue traces back to Dana, for example. It's Toyota's responsibility to specify and inspect their suppliers, though. So the buck has to stop with them, not Dana.

 

[MTVR]

From the site...




But do not look at these as absolute numbers. They are relative. Just because a car may show number one on the list, it is probably better to think about it as "clearly in the top 10%, or even top 20%". Subjective ratings are always relative and not exact.

If the numbers from some website on the internet are that wacked, then I would call them "meaningless", not "relative".

 

[Smileyshaun]

Toyota’s keep their reliability because they are underpowered and they keep doing the same thing over and over again , now unfortunately they are suffering from stringent epa regulations on mileage and emissions just like all the other manufacturers. Almost nobody keeps a vehicle past 150k anymore so why would the manufacturer overbuild vehicles anymore when people are just going to trade them out as soon as the newest tech becomes available? I think a good mark of a vehicles long term reliability has a lot to do with their factory warranty , the longer the warranty the more confident the manufacturer is on the vehicle running trouble free.

 

[Over The Silent Planet]

Where the heck do those numbers come from? Survey responses from lay people (owners)?

Hummer is almost at the top of the list, even higher than Porsche? Hummer hasn't produced a consumer vehicle for 10 years, and they were utter cr@p even when they were new.

Context helps. Go to the Hummer page. It’s a pretty small sample size. 7245 vehicles. The H2 is skewing high long-term reliability and the H3 is skewing low. Insufficient data for the H1.

 

[DaveInDenver]

Almost nobody keeps a vehicle past 150k anymore so why would the manufacturer overbuild vehicles anymore when people are just going to trade them out as soon as the newest tech becomes available?

I don't think that's completely true. Toyota (and Honda, maybe to some extent Nissan) made their name at a time when people thought 100,000 miles was ancient for a car. Some of it was trading them in but mostly they didn't last that long.

Fast forward and now 100K is usually just a psychological point. I'd wager most people who aren't the first owners got their trucks around 100K. I felt lucky to find a sub-100K used Tacoma when I was looking.

Your valid point about seemingly more people now on the treadmill chasing a shiny new metal ball every 3 years notwithstanding, though.

 

[Smileyshaun]

I don't think that's completely true. Toyota (and Honda, maybe to some extent Nissan) made their name at a time when people thought 100,000 miles was ancient for a car. Some of it was trading them in but mostly they didn't last that long.

Fast forward and now 100K is usually just a psychological point. I'd wager most people who aren't the first owners got their trucks around 100K. I felt lucky to find a sub-100K used Tacoma when I was looking.

Your valid point about seemingly more people now on the treadmill chasing a shiny new metal ball every 3 years notwithstanding, though.

I was speaking more to the new vehicle owners once the warranty is up most people don’t keep their vehicles for fear of extremely costly repairs, if you’re buying used you’re already taking off that new car depreciation so having an issue come up it’s kind of expected and usually planned for.

i’ve been out shopping for trucks lately and I got to say my biggest gripe with Toyota and don’t get me wrong I love Toyotas and I’ve owned quite a few is I don’t think there’s really any difference between a brand new Tacoma and a 10 year old one . Not that I’m big on vehicle tech or anything like that but the back up camera looks like it came out of a 10 year old Hyundai the seats are marginal at best and unless you get the top trim package you don’t even get a passenger power seat. And even if you buy the TRD pro you’re really not getting much more than a mid-level truck the only thing they really do is slap on a different set of struts some skid plates and Call it a off-road package , you don’t even get a larger set a more aggressive tires or anything . It just seems like when you look at the rest of the marketplace Toyota has fallen very far behind other manufacturers on listening to what the consumer wants but if you want that Toyota name badge what else are you gonna do?

 

[Regcabguy]

Do you have any personal experience with these vehicles? I don't have a lot of experience but I have personally owned and driven a 1999 Altima, 2007 Tundra 5.7L, and now a 2018 F150 3.5L. The Altima was by far the worse. It grenaded the engine at about 110,000 miles. As for the Tundra and F150, I can tell you the F150 has been in the shop about 5 times as often for recalls and parts failures. That doesn't even include the problems with it that they haven't figured out yet. Also, the Tundra has 185,000 miles on it and the ford has about 42,000 miles. So a vehicle that is six times as old and has almost five times as many miles is still much more reliable than the F150. The only failures on my Tundra was an idler arm and I proactively replaced the water pump. My wife has a 2012 Honda Odyssey that has about 192,000 miles on it and it is awesome as well. We also had a 2000 Honda Accord that was stellar and a 2004 Honda Pilot that has well over 200,000 miles on it and still going strong.

Now anecdotally, I know of only one exception to my personal experience amongst friends and families that have or have had vehicles from these makers. A friend has a 2015 F15 3.5L with about 120,000 miles and hasn't had any issues with it at all. Statistically, that is what Toyota's process would call an outlier.

But hey, no one can match the technological wizardry that Ford has inside the cabin. Sync is so far ahead of what other manufacturers are putting out.

We have a 2005 Honda Pilot with 208k. The engine is near silent and the trans shifts like new. I've had it maintained by the dealer and not always to Honda's recommendations. The Pilot has had 75% city stop and go. What's especially gratifying is the lack of nagging,power locks,windows,ignition switches that plague so many vehicles out there. I'm probably going to try and find another 1st gen pilot. There's some gems out there you just have to have cash in hand and ready to pounce. I don't think Honda's quality is up to par as mine though.

 

[Todd n Natalie]

Agree with Honda. I had a 2003 Accord EX-L V6. Had about 120,000 miles on it when I sold it. (Shouldn't have) Ran great, lots of power, quiet.....

 

[DaveInDenver]

I was speaking more to the new vehicle owners once the warranty is up most people don’t keep their vehicles for fear of extremely costly repairs, if you’re buying used you’re already taking off that new car depreciation so having an issue come up it’s kind of expected and usually planned for.

i’ve been out shopping for trucks lately and I got to say my biggest gripe with Toyota and don’t get me wrong I love Toyotas and I’ve owned quite a few is I don’t think there’s really any difference between a brand new Tacoma and a 10 year old one . Not that I’m big on vehicle tech or anything like that but the back up camera looks like it came out of a 10 year old Hyundai the seats are marginal at best and unless you get the top trim package you don’t even get a passenger power seat. And even if you buy the TRD pro you’re really not getting much more than a mid-level truck the only thing they really do is slap on a different set of struts some skid plates and Call it a off-road package , you don’t even get a larger set a more aggressive tires or anything . It just seems like when you look at the rest of the marketplace Toyota has fallen very far behind other manufacturers on listening to what the consumer wants but if you want that Toyota name badge what else are you gonna do?

A matter of perspective to be sure. I mostly felt right at home operating and working on my Tacoma coming straight from a truck 17 years older. It's not 1-for-1 of course but I can follow the path from then to now. Things generally work the same and I haven't had to buy a ton of new tools so far. I personally like the slow churn approach Toyota takes.

What mostly bugs me about my truck is what they changed unnecessarily (IMO). Things like removing the pilot bearing supporting the input shaft. I assume it's to save 2 seconds on the assembly line by no longer needing to align everything but seems shortsighted. Although the Rx6x series transmissions have been this way for 15 years at least so I'm kind of accepting it.

Using an alloy extension for the release bearing, that's just dumb, though. I had to Speedi-Sleeve mine at 85K since it had worn to the point it was hanging up the bearing. That's a non-stock part now since the sleeve required clearancing the bearing slightly.

Removing the double carden joint from the rear driveshaft is a charlie foxtrot. It's impossible to balance and probably why the u-joints fail so quickly. I've rebuilt mine once already and am saving pennies to just have a proper one built next time. There's no benefit other than cheaper production cost for that move.

Other stuff, like cartridge unit front hubs instead of loose tapered bearings, that's just the way things are. Don't like it but at least Toyota seems to make them sufficient for most uses.

 

[Over The Silent Planet]

I was speaking more to the new vehicle owners once the warranty is up most people don’t keep their vehicles for fear of extremely costly repairs, if you’re buying used you’re already taking off that new car depreciation so having an issue come up it’s kind of expected and usually planned for.

i’ve been out shopping for trucks lately and I got to say my biggest gripe with Toyota and don’t get me wrong I love Toyotas and I’ve owned quite a few is I don’t think there’s really any difference between a brand new Tacoma and a 10 year old one . Not that I’m big on vehicle tech or anything like that but the back up camera looks like it came out of a 10 year old Hyundai the seats are marginal at best and unless you get the top trim package you don’t even get a passenger power seat. And even if you buy the TRD pro you’re really not getting much more than a mid-level truck the only thing they really do is slap on a different set of struts some skid plates and Call it a off-road package , you don’t even get a larger set a more aggressive tires or anything . It just seems like when you look at the rest of the marketplace Toyota has fallen very far behind other manufacturers on listening to what the consumer wants but if you want that Toyota name badge what else are you gonna do?

Or, they’re just not playing the game everyone else is. They’re not building as if they expect you to buy a new one every few years. I know I personally place a high premium on the long term reliability that comes from their design philosophy.