Welding!

Brian McVickers

Administrator
Staff member
I've decided to start welding and I'm hoping that some of you can lend some advice. It seems there are a few people here who weld or know how to and make stuff for their rigs.

If it matters:
:box: I will be storing and using my equipment in a garage that has both 110v outlets and a 220v outlet for the washer/dryer.
:box: I have never welded before.
:box: I want to be able to weld steel and aluminum up to 1/4 inch thick.
:box: I want to be able to cut steel and aluminum up to 1/4 inch maybe even 1/2".
:box: Primary uses will be to fabricate stuff for my rig and eventually artwork and sculpture.
My first project, after I've practiced!, will probably be a rear bumper with swing arm for spare tire and jerry can!! :jumping:

I am considering two options:
A mig welder and a cutting torch or
An acetylene set-up that I can use as a cutting torch and welder.

I am also on a bit of a budget, so I've been looking for used equipment and also at Harbor Freight.
Unfortunately the Tig and plasma cutter are not an option.

So:
What type of equipment should I get?
What should I look for or beware with used equipment?
What should I look for or beware with new equipment?

Any other suggestions or advice is certainly welcome. :ylsmoke:
 

erin

Explorer
I would probably try and find good used professional equipment and avoid Harbor Frieght. At the company I work for we have tried many of their products which seem at first to give great bang for the buck but just don't seem to last. I have had very good luck with the Lincoln welders that Home Depot sells for a reasonable price that last far beyond what they should. They also sell different kits and upgrades to handle different types of materials/or applications.

Hope this helps alittle.
 

goodtimes

Expedition Poseur
The first thing you need to do, is lose your budget. I hate to say it, but if you want the ability to cut/weld up to 1/2" plate, it will not be cheap. It also will not be a quick project.

The first thing you should do is go talk to the local community college or trade school and see if they offer any welding classes. Learning from a professional will cut YEARS off of the learning curve. I have been welding for several years, and I still consider taking classes (if I could just find the time between paying the mortgage and working on my BSEE).

For equipment, go with name brand gear, plain and simple. Miller, Hobart, Lincoln are the big 3. My personal preference is Miller (btw, miller owns Hobart.....that is their "economy" brand...but still good machines). Lincolns are just as good, so it is a matter of features and color. If you want a MIG (very easy to learn on, compared to stick or TIG or oxy/acetelyne), you will need a machine that puts out 250 amps to get that 1/2" plate...so you are looking at ~$1700 if you watch for a good sale. You can buy attachements to make a mig weld aluminum pretty inexpensively (the spoolgun for my Millermatic 210 runs about $300, then I need to get a bottle of the mixed gas, reverse the polarity of the welder and I'm all set...easy process). The problem with MIG is that it doesn't leave nearly as nice of a weld as TIG. I only say this because you mention doing artwork. A TIG will give you infinately more control than a MIG, will give you a superior weld (astetically), and most TIG's will also double as a stick welder. The downside...a nice square wave TIG will run you 3x as much as a MIG. Consumables also cost more per foot of weld. A simple "buzz box", or stick welder is very inexpensive compared to a MIG or TIG, but they are difficult to learn on (again, take some classes, this will help you ALOT), don't give you as much control as a MIG or TIG (particularly when you are still learning), and generally splatter alot more, leaving a bigger mess to clean up. But the price is good, and they are very versatile...just buy the right electrode for the job, set the polarity you need, and go at it. Gas welding....as in oxy/acetelyne welding.....I know very few people who still do this, and I dont even know if they teach it anymore. But, some people swear by it. I know very little about it, so I can't really comment on it. The critical things to look at when buying welders...duty cycle (IMO 40% is bare minimum, 60% is better), this tells you how long the welder will run w/o having to stop and cool down. A 10% duty cycle means that it will weld for 1 out of every 10 minutes. 60% will run for 6 out of every 10 minutes. It is difficult for a fabricator to exceed 60%, unless you have a whole bunch of pre-cut pieces that are all set up in a jig. I usually find myself laying down a small bead (~10 seconds), stopping, moving to another location (to avoid warping the parts), which takes me 10 - 15 seconds, then another small bead....and so on. I have never exceeded the 60% on my miller. Next, look at output amps. Assuming you are getting ~28 - 30 volts, it is going to take 200 amps to weld 3/8" steel in a single pass, 250 amps for 1/2" (those are approximate numbers that will vary depending on wire speed, gas type, bevels on the working edge, etc., but are good for sizing the equipment you need to purchase). With a MIG, be sure to get something with steel drive rollers. And no matter which type you go with, get the 230v machine.

As for cutting, your gonna hate me for this....but don't waste your time with a torch. The price of plazma cutters is coming down, you can get set up to cut 1/2" plate for under $1100. The kerf is small and strait compared to oxy/acetelyne, the heat affected zone (HAZ) is generally very small (1/16" compared to 3/8 - 1/2") which equates to less grinding and less mess, and they are very simple to use. If you ever need to get into a tight spot, or cut something that you don't want to anneal (such as motor mounts, suspension mounting brackets, etc), the plazma cutter is the only way to go. The downside is that consumables are expensive ($35 per set)....but to be honest, I am still using the original set on my hypertherm 380...they are about 2.5 years old.

By far the most important thing, IMO, is to learn the process before you buy equipment. It will likely save you alot of $$$. Take the class! I cannot say it enough. Even with my welding ability (I have no problem welding roll cages, suspension components, etc.), I wish I would have taken the class. I would have started out at the level it took me years to achieve...meaning that right now I would be that much better. So take the class.

Take the class.

Take the class.

Take the class.

Take the class.

Take the class.

Take the class.













Take the class!!!!!


Seriously....take the class!
 

erin

Explorer
Very good advice!!!

I too wish that I had some formal instruction, instead of just self taught.
 

Suty

Adventurer
I just got back from Urban Search and Rescue School, and we used a cutter down there I had never seen . Its called Petrogen , and it is Oxygen and Gasoline ( ya, I know sounds like a accident waiting to happen) it was tremendous and cuts like a knife. Cheaper than plasma and more mobile. Basiclally , looks like Oxy-Actelene from the Nozzle back, its when you get to the Bottles that it's different. 1 Large o2 Bottle and a little 3-5 Gallon gas can that you pressurize to 20 psi. Turn your o2 wheel a half a turn at the tip , turn the fuel on at the tip until you see a mist on the steel your cutting, then spark it up. Couple of seconds to allow the tip to warm and get the gas right, place the tip a inch or two from the metal , and when you see it begin to melt and pool , hit the oxygen lever and watch'r cut.
Anywho, just thought I would add a little to this post incase no one else hard heard of this either. Tu Compa, Suty
 

Scott Brady

Founder
I have a Lincoln 220v stick welder for the big stuff and a nice 120v Lincoln mig for everything up to 1/4". It welds great and was $500 at home depot.

I have a nice band saw for cutting stock.

A plasma cutter is next on my list :)
 

Brian McVickers

Administrator
Staff member
Thanks for all the input.

What a tremendous amount of information to digest!

My wife, Amy, keeps telling me to just take a class as you all suggested. I have been holding off and thinking I would use the class money to buy some used equipment and then teach myself. I guess I'll look and see what types of classes are offered.

Thanks again
 

otter

New member
Hello,
I have equipped my shop with mostly used equipment, found on government liquidation.com, newspaper classified, craigs list, and word of mouth.
Welder-Miller Goldstar 500amp TIG, traded for auto engine install
Plasma cutter-ThermoDynamics 4Xi, $450.00, Craigs list
Band saw-Delta 14", $400.00, E-bay
Radial arm drill press- Walker Turner $99.00, Govt. liquidation
Milling machine- Clausing, $1100.00, E-bay
Lathe-Craftsman/Atlas $0.00 salvage from scrap pile
Press- Harbor Freight 20ton, 199.00
Compressor- Campbell Hausfeld 5hp, $499.00
Cutoff Saw- Makita 12" dry cut $499.00 retail store
Belt sander-Burr-King $650.00 E-bay
Hand tools-SnapOn, Craftsman, and various other manufacturers, some new lots used.
Equipping a shop does not have to be prohibitively expensive, judicious use of alternative sources to acquire the tools is the key to reasonable cost control. The above are in my shop that measures 16'x26' and is dedicated to the shop concept. Welding is about 20% science, 70% technique and 10% style. If you learn to oxyacetylene weld you will be able to apply those basics to all the other forms of welding. There are limitless sources for oxy welding learning. The basics must be learned then it is endless practice to achieve an acceptable weld. I learned oxy welding in high school metal shop in 1972 and have been welding since. Steel, aluminum, stainless steel, titanium are a few of the stocks that I currently use. The local welding shop may offer basic welding classes, another possibility may be the community college also. Practice, practice practice on scrap material until you can produce decent welds, then practice some more.


:sunny:
eric
 

Brian McVickers

Administrator
Staff member
Training manuals for various subjects!

For anyone interested in welding study
This publishing company publishes the Naval training manuals and has them online. This link is to the Naval Welding Manual called Steelworker Volume One and along the left side of the page you will see links to thier many other subjects of publication.
You can purchase hard copies or just read them on line.

From what I have read so far they seem to be very complete and informative.


http://www.tpub.com/content/construction/14250/index.htm

:coffee: :coffee:
 
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Brian McVickers

Administrator
Staff member
Free CAD software

This is pretty cool!

This is an online machine shop with downloadable software. The idea is that you use the software to create what you want and then send them the design to have them make it. Personally if I need something machined I would rather support a local machine shop but the free CAD software is great! They even have an audio tutor to help you get started.


http://www.emachineshop.com/index.html
 
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MaddBaggins

Explorer
The only kind of welding I have done is oxy/acetylene. I was pretty good at it but it's been years since I have done it. Some day I will take a class and I am looking at a used mig.
 
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Ursidae69

Expedition Leader
I think I'll take Brian's advice and look for a class so I can use my new toy more efficiently. :victory:
 

calamaridog

Expedition Leader
Allow me to be so bold to suggest you practice a WHOLE BUNCH before welding a bumper with a tire carrier or jerry can holder. Both of those items can cause the vehicle behind you to have a very bad day when they separate from the vehicle.
 

Brian McVickers

Administrator
Staff member
C'mon are you kidding!
I just got a great 220v stick welder a week and a half ago.
Picked up some welding rods at a local garage sale, about 15lb of rods for 50 cents for the whole bunch, they're a bit chalky though and the flux is crumbling off some of them but still a great deal!
Went the the scrap yard that same afternoon, started welding the next day.
So far the bumper itself and the mounting brackets are complete and the swing away tire carrier is next. Should have it all complete in about another week. This is great, I've never welded before! :luxhello:

Just kidding! :xxrotflma

Brian will be happy that I am looking at a local college welding 101 class that begins next spring.

I did however get a nice stick welder but have not purchased any welding rods yet because I am still learning about them. I want to make sure I get the appropriate rod for the materials I will be welding. I'll start out by reading a lot and practicing the basics. I can't wait till I actually stick two random pieces of metal together. I'll probably be running all over the place to friends and family "hey look what I can do!" and I'll be sure to post a picture.

I'm sure to have lots of questions for you all as I figure this out! :ylsmoke:
 

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