Warn Tabor line to be discontinued.

[R_Lefebvre]

He may or may not have any control over material and build quality, and may have simply chosen to use a motor already available from China, rather than outsourcing to a Chinese manufacturer a motor of his own spec. I would personally rather see a winch using a Bosch motor or another motor readily available, already in use in a major brand of winch, rather than picking one from a Chinese source, but it could well be a very good motor. Problem is, who knows?

As for the rest of the winch, if he builds as good as he describes, it sounds like a solid product. Time will probably tell. The price is exceptional. Now, if the Titan could be retrofitted with a 6+hp Bosch...

Agreed on all of this, but the issue for me is, how do I even know what components the name brands use?

What motors do Warn use? I have no idea. I do know from looking at those teardown pics he's posted, the Warns do not look like they are built as well as the Titan.

I will ALWAYS pay for quality, but they have to be able to prove it. People can't tell me "it's better because it's more expensive" because that's BS. Show me the parts, show me the specs.

Apparently the Warn M series doesn't even make an attempt at sealling. That's BS to me. And it means I need to step up into their super winches at $1000+ just to get sealing.

 

[madizell]

Apparently the Warn M series doesn't even make an attempt at sealing. That's BS to me. And it means I need to step up into their super winches at $1000+ just to get sealing.

What part is not sealed that should be? The parts list for the M8000 shows both an O-ring and a gasket sealing the planetary gear housing, which is the only part of the device that requires "sealing" per se. Sealing can be a double edged sword if it is not absolutely required for proper function. The electric motor, for example, can be sealed if you wish with a simple application of RTV. However, doing so will not absolutely seal out atmosphere, which means that there will be condensation inside the motor due to extremes of heat when in use. The condensation has no way to get back out once it is liquid rather than molecular water, and the motor will eventually corrode because it is sealed rather than because it is not. The motor also produces ozone which needs a way to escape or it, too, will cause corrosion.

The drum and brake assembly don't require sealing. They should be water resistant, but should also be able to eliminate any water that infiltrates. The solenoid pack also requires no sealing. What else is there that absolutely needs to be sealed away from the elements?

Even the high end Warn winches are not absolutely sealed. At least, my 8274-50 is not. The drum is wide open to water and dirt (it has a nylon bearing ring which I grease, but it is not sealed), yet has never accumulated such. Only the gear case is sealed, yet I have never had an issue with it as a result, and it has been totally under water more times than I can recall. Nor have I ever had a companion on the trail with an M8000 have their winch fail due to immersion.

Certainly you don't want muddy water in the gear assembly, but that part is, in fact, sealed on the M8000 as it is with the 8274. I don't believe it is a fair statement to say that Warn makes no attempt to seal the M series winch. Those parts requiring sealing are sealed.

 

[cruiseroutfit]

The Tabor line only has a 1-year warranty.

Exactly why I said Warn and not Tabor

There were several mentions of the Warn M8000 above in comparison to the Titans.

 

[R_Lefebvre]

What part is not sealed that should be?

Hmmm... that's interesting. Changes things a bit. I was going off what I was told by somebody working at Warn. He said:

If you're looking for good water sealing, look at the Ultimate Performance line (9.5ti, 9.5xp) or the PowerPlant as they all feature extreme-duty sealing. The M8000s are not sealed (and neither are the Tabors). The 9.5xp is a monster of a winch. I know it's more expensive, but it's the ultimate self-recovery winch.

Sealing is really important to me because I life in the salt belt, and it's a daily driver. Salt spray does nasty things when it gets into places and sits.

 

[kajo]

If you worry about sealing issues with the Warn M8000 you have little to worry about. I have had my M8000 since 2001 and it has been submerged in creeks/rivers/the Pacific Ocean and has been in deep snow several times. It is still going strong as can be. I put dielectric grease on all the connections in the control box and the connections on the motor itself as preventive medicine though and reapply it on occasion

As far as the Tabor line. It is the second time the same line has been discontinued by WARN. Some may also remember the Warn "Magnum" line which was discontinued a couple years before the Tabor line came out. replacement parts are intrchangable.

 

[Alaska Mike]

If you have salt concerns, get a cover and spray it off with fresh water occasionally.

 

[madizell]

Hmmm... that's interesting. Changes things a bit. I was going off what I was told by somebody working at Warn. He said:



Sealing is really important to me because I life in the salt belt, and it's a daily driver. Salt spray does nasty things when it gets into places and sits.

I looked at the parts list and break down for the 9.5ti. Compared to the M8000, it appears to have 2 additional V-seals, one on either end of the drum. But that's it. These seals would help to keep crud out of the drum which is a nice thing, but may or may not provide you with additional corrosion protection from salt mist or spray (atmospheric-borne moisture). I think they are intended to protect from immersion.

Frankly I would not substitute sealing for maintenance, or assume that because a unit is "sealed" that it does not require cleaning and maintenance as often as a unit that is not sealed. V-seals are a running seal, which means that something turns against them. If there is dirt or water in the area of the V-seal while the winch is operating, there is a probability that some moisture and dirt will infiltrate by pushing the seal back. Better than no seal, but not an absolute barrier either. Typically, Jeep front spindles have similar V-seals between the inner bearing and the axle shaft where it enters the spindle, and I have had these seals leak frequently allowing water into the hubs. They are not fool-proof.

Plus, the difference in price between the M-series and the Performance Series is substantial. The 9.5ti sells for around $1,100 whereas the M8000 sells for about $516. That's a lot if all you are buying is a couple of rubber seals. I would look into the possibility that the V-seals from the 9.5 might install on the M8000 if sealing is an issue for you, or lubricate the M8000 bushings with high pressure marine grease, which will do a fair job as well in keeping water out of the drum.

But truly, salt water gets into places that you didn't know exist, and I would not expect seals to be much help in the long run. Instead, I would disassemble the winch and spray the inside surfaces of the drum (but not necessarily the braking surface) with anti-corrosion spray, or even paint the inside of the drum. In shipping my Jeep over to Australia I found that the outer surface of the winch drum (8274-50) rusted after a month in a container sent by boat to Melbourne, even though the container was never opened and the drum was packed with 160 feet of synthetic line. For the return trip I stripped the line and sprayed the drum with a fish oil spray sold for the purpose of protecting metal from salt water, and on arrival in Seattle, the drum was spotless, and stayed that way for nearly a year of use. Great stuff if you can find it. Incidentally, the inside of the drum did not rust going either direction, even though the inside of the drum was "sealed" only with a layer of axle grease on the nylon bearing. So perhaps it does not take much to keep the inside of the drum free of rust.

 

[R_Lefebvre]

Wow, great advice, thanks!

:bowdown:

So now I guess it really just depends on how I feel the M8000 stacks up against the Titan 10k. That will be more difficult. An extra 2000lbs of pull, and save at least $100 (Maybe 2-300) including shipping. It does appear to be well made, but then long term parts availability is questionable on the Titan. You just don't know. Warn is well established, and you know they're not going anywhere.

If I could get the M10000 for a similar price, I'd go for the Warn.

 

[Alaska Mike]

I'd look at your winch needs carefully. Consider how often you will need it, the operating weight of the vehicle, the duration of your average pull, the weight of the winch itself, line speed, and similar considerations.

I'm a big fan of the M8000 for moderate use. Actually, what I call moderate use many would call heavy duty use, but it's all about perception. I only sold mine when I upgraded to an 8274-50. The M8000 is a pretty fast, reliable winch with a durable design and a proven track record. Scott Brady has shown us that it can be fairly light as well with a few well-chosen upgrades. The only real downside is that you're limited on how much cable you can spool in real-world operating conditions where perfect spooling may prove difficult. I'm debating putting one on my project Series III, since I doubt I'll need the capabilities of a 8274 on that vehicle.

 

[R_Lefebvre]

Mike, I'm not sure which way you're going with that? For or against the M8000?

What are my needs? Probably the biggest thing is that I won't use it often, but when I do use it, I need it to WORK. I don't think I need an extreme winch. I don't plan on doing extreme trails. I won't be winching up rock faces, or through the Darien Gap.

My intent is that I'm likely to do some dirt road exploring, and may encounter the odd obstacle. Or, I may do some solo exploring or say, hydro lines and such closer to me, non-life-threatening areas to be stranded. I just want a winch so that I can get my self out of some light stucks.

Just last weekend I was exploring some unmaintained roads around here. I got decently far into one, but it looked like it was getting pretty muddy and rutted up ahead, so I bailed out. I just didn't want to risk getting stuck, having to hike out with my toddler and find a farmer to pull me out. Actually, twice I had to turn back because I just didn't want to chance it on some potentially soft ground.

How much winch do I need? I dunno. Truck weighs about 4600lbs empty. The GVWR is 6000 and I intend to respect that.

At first blush, the M8000 might seem a little light. But, the specs on it would appear pretty good. It's faster, and pulls more on the 4th wrap than many 9500lb winches from the other guys.

However, most people seem to think that you need 9000+ for a Discovery. And if that's he case, I'll go with the Titan 10k I think.

It's really come down to these two winches I think.

Reliability and price are the key things for me. All the other performance indicators come second.

 

[madizell]

Knowing Mike and having watched him in action, I would say he is for the M8000, not against it. One reference bears expanding -- packing line on the drum in the real world.

The M8000, as well as the 9.5ti and every one of the tabor line I believe, use a lay down drum design with support rods between motor end and gear case end of the drum. These rods limit how much of your line can be packed onto one end of the drum during use without stopping to unwind and rewind the cable so as to lay flat. All horizontal winch designs share this same limitation.

The 8274 does not. It has an open drum design which uses a foot-forward mount to support the light end of the drum so there are no cross rods. You can pack as much line or cable on one end as space will otherwise allow.

Admittedly this is not the best way to winch for several reasons. But in the real world, it is often better to allow the cable to pack on one end for a few more feet than to stop, release pressure, unwind, unsnarl, and repack the drum, just to get a few more feet before having to stop again. This happens with off-angle pulls of long duration and can not be helped. The 8274 is about the only winch on the market that is relatively immune to this problem. I have made full length, off line pulls using 160 feet of synthetic line (150 usable) without stopping. You can't so this with the M8000 or the Tabor, nor with the other brands of similar design.

This feature is particularly attractive to severe duty installations and for off road racing where time is the killer and you can't take time to fool with winch rope. For general use, it is not an issue.

Since you will be doing mostly light to moderate duty winching on only an occasional basis, you don't need a killer winch. As you say, you need one that will work when needed. But, the only way to avoid surprises on the trail is to test your winch before starting out, each and every time. That means that before each trail ride, you spool off all the cable or rope, check the drum surface for debris or corrosion, check the line for kinks or frayed spots, check the electrical connections and power cables, check the controller for function (which in turn checks the solenoids for function), then repack the line. It is a PITA to be sure, but is easier to fix problems in your driveway than deep in the woods. At that point, you will know that no matter what brand you have and whether or not it has seals on the drum, it works.

As for the size, the M8000 is rated to pull 8,000 pounds single wrap. So is the 8274-50. My CJ7 weighs 5,300 pounds loaded for the trail, and the 8274 will pull it up and over anything. To compare, I recently mounted an M8000 on my early CJ5 and took it out in the woods to reset the new winch cable. It pulled bottom of the hill to the top, full length pull (125 feet) with only a couple of stops to turn the steering wheel so as to load cable smoothly, without the need to stop to let the motor rest or to recharge the battery. It pulled fine, was plenty fast enough, if not quite as fast as the 8274, and help the vehicle on the hill without slipping. It pulled as well fully wrapped as it did on the first wrap, but of course, I was not stuck, the CJ5 is only around 2,500 pounds, and the incline was moderate (25 degrees or less). You need to keep in mind that no matter what your vehicle may weigh, it never takes that much pull to get it rolling unless it is wedged in the rocks, buried to the roof line, or being pulled vertically. Rolling loads are always far less than static weight, and most winch pulls are in the 2,000 pound load range, even with 4,000 to 6,000 pound vehicles.

Personally I believe the 8274 is under-rated in terms of load capacity, but still the 8274 and the 8000 are close enough in capacity to make some comparisons. The M8000 pulled 2,500 pounds like it was a butterfly. I would expect it to pull 3 times that much weight using care and patience. If I can get by with 8,000 pounds of pull on a 5,300 pound vehicle in race mode, you should find an 8,000 pound winch more than sufficient for 4,500 pounds in expedition mode. In the alternative, the 10,000 pound Titan should be able to pull you up a tree, and the price is more than competitive.

 

[R_Lefebvre]

I was wondering about how much force is really required. My biggest fear is the suction from mud pits. I don't have experience with this with trucks, but I do with bikes!

My WR250 only weighs 225lbs. I can pivot it up on my knee and lift it off the ground. But I dropped it in a mud puddle once, and it took me about an hour to get it out by myself because of the suction. And if it hadn't been for some rope I found in the woods, I never would have. I saw a 350lb KLR650 stuck in a mud puddle once, upright. The rider just got off and it stood up. I think it took 5 men to pull it out.

How does it compare with trucks?

I do know that you can use a snatch block to double up the force, if you have a suitable attach point close enough...

I think virtually all winches suffer from the packing problem you're talking about, because of their design. I had read that the integrated solenoid models were better because of the bridge design instead of the rods. Is that not true?

 

[Alaska Mike]

Integrated solenoid designs are slightly better, but not as good as the 8274 in avoiding binding. Maintenance is slightly harder, but not excessively so- unless your bumper is the kind that recesses the winch in a pocket that limits access.

Also look at Superwinch, especially since you're a Rover guy. Good product with a clean design.

I think in your application, the M8000 would be a great choice. They're priced pretty well, and they have a proven track record. Don't forget the recovery gear that goes along with the winch, as well as a good pair of gloves.

 

[madizell]

I was wondering about how much force is really required. My biggest fear is the suction from mud pits. I don't have experience with this with trucks, but I do with bikes!

Well, situations vary. We did a bit of mud bogging in Alaska, with a few occasions where one vehicle or another was buried to the door sills. I remember one in particular where a CJ5 on 44 inch tires kept trying a bog section until the tops of the tires were level with the terrain. Seriously buried and not able to move an inch forward or back. He then tried to extract using his old 8274 and could not budge the vehicle. I got in front, backed into a depression 100 feet away, and pulled him out with a single line pull from my 8274 without even slowing down the winch motor. Turns out his needed maintenance and didn't have adequate electrical support (strong alternator, high output battery, clean and large gauge cables). He also had the older style 2.5hp motor whereas I had the new Bosch 6hp motor, which helps. I believe that had his winch been in good repair, he would have been able to get out by himself.

We also had a situation where an early Bronco was buried to the axles and nose against a bank, and the only workable way out was up the bank. The only anchor points were other vehicles. Again, the mounted winch didn't get the job done, but a buddies winch did. In that situation as well, the fault was with the 12,000 winch on the stuck vehicle not having sufficient ability due to defective mounting practice and poor pulling ability (an off-brand no one else has ever heard of, i.e., not a Warn, and generally able to provide maybe 2,000 pounds of pull at best). We used a bit of leverage to get the front tires up the bank, and from there it was easy.

On another occasion I removed a Chevy Suburban from the middle of a trail after it was burned to the ground during the winter, melted into the mud, and frozen solid to the ground. That time I used a double line pull from my unanchored vehicle, broke the Suburban loose from the ground by rolling it up at an angle, then slid it off the trail. You don't get much more stuck to the ground that a 5,000 pound truck axle deep in frozen mud, but we got it out without aid from anyone else, and with only an 8,000 pound winch.

I have never had to leave a vehicle in the wild for lack of recovery ability, and have never seen a vehicle that could not be recovered with a winch and patience. Even a TJ lost in Metal Creek near the Knik Glacier, abandoned for 2 months to be buried to the hood in silt, was recovered eventually by a small group of guys with vehicle mounted winches and hand tools because the professional off road recovery guys would not take their trucks out to the site.

I wouldn't worry about it. Keep in mind that just because you have a winch does not mean that you are free to try impossible feats with your truck. Even an 8,000 pound winch is strong enough to tweak a frame or tear off a bumper or bend an axle if misused. Choose your obstacles with your vehicle and your recovery skills in mind and don't do things that you know you should not try, and a simple 8,000 pound winch will get you home every time.

 

[Alaska Mike]

Ahhhh... the mighty MegaWinch. Or, should I say GlacialWinch.

When you winch as much as we do in Alaska, line speed and reliability are huge considerations. For instance, I think there was one trip to Hicks Lake that we were winching at least one vehicle every 25 yards (or less) over the course of a 2 mile section. Drop into a mudhole, immediately lose momentum, set the anchor, winch out, and repeat. It took the majority of a long Alaskan summer day to make it through that section. That was the established trail, and we'd actually waited for it to dry out before we attempted it. Just a brutal way to get from point A to point B.

Every environment puts different strains on a winch. Water and mud are very different from dry rock and sand. I think the standard catch-all is 1.5 times the vehicle's weight for winch ratings, but I don't consider it a hard and fast rule.