WANTED; starting the search for "MY" '97-01 G320

[mk216v]

Long story short, an early W463 ('97-01 G320) is going to be the better fit for me to build an overlander (and daily driver most likely) out of. I plan to keep this G for many many years (eventually make a G300DT out of it) so it has to be "the" one.

Here's what I'll be looking for;

-'97-01 G320

-Clean, no rust, prefer no accidents, prefer no mods

-Low mileage preferred(but higher mileage is ok IF has full maint records as below)

-Maintenance records/history

-Black interior

-Prefer Tectite Grey exterior (as shown below). Would like to stay away from dark colors if possible, but I understand if black is the most common on preMBUSA W463's.

-Prefer west coast vehicle

Sadly, I JUST missed this one which sold a week ago. If anyone can coerce the new owner to sell it to me, $ in it for you.
http://www.luxeauto.com/inventory_detail.cfm?Invid=1304


If you see anything, please help a G lover out and PM me a link or info.

Thank you!!!!!
Best regards,
Jeremy
'80 300GD 4spd

 

[mk216v]

Still searching, decided on a '97-99 G320.

 

[otiswesty]

Jeremy,
How did you decide on 97-99?
The late 463's are highly managed electronically. Read some stories about dealing with electrical gremlins on these vehicles. The G320 you are drooling over just got billed $7K for CEL issues. Pulling off a diesel conversion on one of these is going to be very difficult. Your best bet would be to find an early 463 that is rust free and in nice condition. Basically a 300GE or 463 300GD. The fit and finish is considered the best with respect to interior build quality. The only real advantage of a late model 463 (preMBUSA) is the transfer case shifter. That's about it. A 2002-2003 G500 will be your best bang for the buck and allow bigger tires without compromising available power. There is no advantage to the earlier models with respect to fuel economy unless you go diesel. I have said it before, the G500 after 2001 in North America has good parts and service support through the dealer network, and that fact alone dramatically effects repair times. I drove a brand new G550 in Europe for a few weeks, and it had as many small issues as my 2002 G500 with 57K miles on it, except that it costs $80K more. So while the newest trucks are great and lower mileage, I wouldn't recommend a newer 2004+ unless your budget allowed it.

I have nothing against the Europa trucks they are a great value when they are priced competitively. I feel fortunate to have a G500, even if it is considered one of the "bad" ones (2002). If you want that G320 because it is the last of the V6 models in superb condition, then you should get it, but I don't think you should assume that it could be even better with a diesel transplant in the future. The sweet red truck you have now is all the nicer due to its original condition.

Now if you ask me what is the best Gwagen, I would give a little pause. While I like the power and all wheel drive that the makes the G500 excel in winter mountain driving, I really yearn for the mechanical simplicity of the 460 series. I would not take a 463 or later 461 deep into the bush out of the US without a diagnostic program like Star Diag set up for that appropriate model. Read Tom Sheppard's account of being in limp home mode from Algeria all the way back to Munich. That was in a post-1996 461 that looks to all intents like a 460 but with a complex management and monitoring system that adds little to the 5 cyl 290 td motor pushing it around. I say go all mechanical or go all the way and get yourself a computer for your tool box.

If you want a description of my version of a perfect 460 I'll give it. For a 463 version I will just attach a pic.

 

[Thor]

Jeremy,
How did you decide on 97-99?
The late 463's are highly managed electronically. Read some stories about dealing with electrical gremlins on these vehicles. The G320 you are drooling over just got billed $7K for CEL issues. Pulling off a diesel conversion on one of these is going to be very difficult. Your best bet would be to find an early 463 that is rust free and in nice condition. Basically a 300GE or 463 300GD. The fit and finish is considered the best with respect to interior build quality. The only real advantage of a late model 463 (preMBUSA) is the transfer case shifter. That's about it. A 2002-2003 G500 will be your best bang for the buck and allow bigger tires without compromising available power. There is no advantage to the earlier models with respect to fuel economy unless you go diesel. I have said it before, the G500 after 2001 in North America has good parts and service support through the dealer network, and that fact alone dramatically effects repair times. I drove a brand new G550 in Europe for a few weeks, and it had as many small issues as my 2002 G500 with 57K miles on it, except that it costs $80K more. So while the newest trucks are great and lower mileage, I wouldn't recommend a newer 2004+ unless your budget allowed it.

I have nothing against the Europa trucks they are a great value when they are priced competitively. I feel fortunate to have a G500, even if it is considered one of the "bad" ones (2002). If you want that G320 because it is the last of the V6 models in superb condition, then you should get it, but I don't think you should assume that it could be even better with a diesel transplant in the future. The sweet red truck you have now is all the nicer due to its original condition.

Now if you ask me what is the best Gwagen, I would give a little pause. While I like the power and all wheel drive that the makes the G500 excel in winter mountain driving, I really yearn for the mechanical simplicity of the 460 series. I would not take a 463 or later 461 deep into the bush out of the US without a diagnostic program like Star Diag set up for that appropriate model. Read Tom Sheppard's account of being in limp home mode from Algeria all the way back to Munich. That was in a post-1996 461 that looks to all intents like a 460 but with a complex management and monitoring system that adds little to the 5 cyl 290 td motor pushing it around. I say go all mechanical or go all the way and get yourself a computer for your tool box.

If you want a description of my version of a perfect 460 I'll give it. For a 463 version I will just attach a pic.

I'd be interested in your perfect 460 ideas, perhaps a new thread to show everyone and help everyone, or PM if not ready for prime time. This would be a nice favor for me. Thank you in advance.

 

[mk216v]

Jeremy,
How did you decide on 97-99?
The late 463's are highly managed electronically. Read some stories about dealing with electrical gremlins on these vehicles. The G320 you are drooling over just got billed $7K for CEL issues. Pulling off a diesel conversion on one of these is going to be very difficult. Your best bet would be to find an early 463 that is rust free and in nice condition. Basically a 300GE or 463 300GD. The fit and finish is considered the best with respect to interior build quality. The only real advantage of a late model 463 (preMBUSA) is the transfer case shifter. That's about it. A 2002-2003 G500 will be your best bang for the buck and allow bigger tires without compromising available power. There is no advantage to the earlier models with respect to fuel economy unless you go diesel. I have said it before, the G500 after 2001 in North America has good parts and service support through the dealer network, and that fact alone dramatically effects repair times. I drove a brand new G550 in Europe for a few weeks, and it had as many small issues as my 2002 G500 with 57K miles on it, except that it costs $80K more. So while the newest trucks are great and lower mileage, I wouldn't recommend a newer 2004+ unless your budget allowed it.

I have nothing against the Europa trucks they are a great value when they are priced competitively. I feel fortunate to have a G500, even if it is considered one of the "bad" ones (2002). If you want that G320 because it is the last of the V6 models in superb condition, then you should get it, but I don't think you should assume that it could be even better with a diesel transplant in the future. The sweet red truck you have now is all the nicer due to its original condition.

Now if you ask me what is the best Gwagen, I would give a little pause. While I like the power and all wheel drive that the makes the G500 excel in winter mountain driving, I really yearn for the mechanical simplicity of the 460 series. I would not take a 463 or later 461 deep into the bush out of the US without a diagnostic program like Star Diag set up for that appropriate model. Read Tom Sheppard's account of being in limp home mode from Algeria all the way back to Munich. That was in a post-1996 461 that looks to all intents like a 460 but with a complex management and monitoring system that adds little to the 5 cyl 290 td motor pushing it around. I say go all mechanical or go all the way and get yourself a computer for your tool box.

If you want a description of my version of a perfect 460 I'll give it. For a 463 version I will just attach a pic.

Hey Eric,

The M112 V6 of the '97-99 is a great engine IMHO--better than the M103 I-6. I also really like the look of the preMBUSA(but "late" W463) gauge cluster and early/late rocker switches(same as in late W460). Those are very clean/classic MB to me. The MBUSA cluster/switches are too "Americanized" for my tastes. Plus, look how many **************' switches you can get for the preMBUSA rigs (winch, working lights, blah blah). :sombrero:

It seems most of the veteran G owners have "upgraded" from the W460 to the W463 due to being more comfortable at freeway speeds, etc....so I'm trying to learn from you all in building one G one time (vs two G's separate times).

Please correct me if I'm wrong(on any of this) but the preMBUSA W463's have less elec's than the '02+ MBUSA rigs, and of the preMBUSA's, the 300GE/G300 have less elec's than the G320. From some of the info I had found so far;
http://www.pointedthree.com/disc/forums/showthread.php?tid=17330&posts=7&highlight=300GE&highlightmode=1#M180119

http://www.clubgwagen.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=18&t=1795&hilit=300ge

Yes, I'm aware the previous G320 owner had racked up a $7k bill at a certain MBZ independent(same one my W460 was taken to) but this doesn't equate to unreliability to me (I say that because this shop seems to really push some expensive repairs on these rigs--my rig's $12k heater box invoice is a prime example).

Regarding a diesel swap, the euro 300GDT came with the 606A overseas, and there was no immobilizer in '96-00 I'm aware of, so would be some work yes, but shouldn't be anything like a CDi swap.

I think finding any preMBUSA W463 that's clean and low mileage is going to be difficult, wouldn't you agree?

Can you educate me on the late W463 preMBUSA t-case shifter?

My biggest qualms with the early MBUSA rigs are; "Americanized"(IMHO) gauge cluster and switches, even more electronics. The pluses to them are availability and cost for what you get(newer vehicle, usually lower miles, V8, etc).

Understood that the G320 MPG may be similar to an MBUSA G500 depending on how heavy your foot is. Same goes with the VW Treg VR6/V8's.

How couldn't a 300GDT trump a G320 in regards to MPG and torque? Swap costs aside, the 606A seems like the engine that would be the best mix of torque and MPG without a lot of elec's, no?

Thanks for the kind words on my W460. Let me run my pro/con thoughts by you;

W460 pros;
-Already have one
-Simple to work on as no elec's
-Lower cost initially (kinda)

Cons;
-Part time 4WD (not as safe as full time 4WD)
-Manual tranny(not as easy to upgrade engine like it is with an auto, as many more auto boxes available vs manual), no hill-hold like with G auto (think overlanding)
-Will have to galvanize/rustproof/repaint to last tens of years
-Rear seat folds as one unit

(PreMBUSA) W463 pros;
-Still fairly simple (compared to MBUSA rigs which have more elec's)
-More aesthetically pleasing cluster, newer switches, nicer steering wheel on ’96-01's
-More comfortable (quieter on road, heated seats, easier to achieve freeway speeds out of the box)
-Safer w/ full time 4WD
-Ability to split fold rear seat—either use 65 or 35 (good for overlanding)
-Less rust potential

Cons;
-Could be more expensive initially depending
-More difficult to find

Of those, the biggest pro's for the W463 over the W460 to me are;
-More comfortable (quieter on road, heated seats, easier to achieve freeway speeds out of the box)
-Safer w/ full time 4WD
-Ability to split fold rear seat—either use 65 or 35 (good for overlanding)
-Less rust potential

I'd REALLY appreciate your thoughts Eric. Feel free to PM or email me if that works better for you.

Best,
Jeremy

PS--I'd love to hear your ultimate W460, then I'll share mine.

 

[MatthewThompson]

What makes a part time 4WD vehicle less safe than a full time 4WD vehicle?

 

[otiswesty]

What makes a part time 4WD vehicle less safe than a full time 4WD vehicle?

AWD with an open center diff is better on snow and ice at highway speeds than 2wd or 4wd. The radius of a turn differs between front and rear wheels, this can cause the car to break loose if the front and rear are locked together like in a true 4wd; 2wd is probably safer on icey highways compared to 4wd, but 4wd is great for getting out of the ditch.

The issue with the different 463 models is difficult. They are all really nice cars, the V6 G320 among the nicest. I have a preference for the 463-249 largely because of the frustration I had with extended duration of repairs on my 300GD, a secondary effect of owning a grey market vehicle. That said, I would rather have almost any model 463 before I would buy some of the other imported SUV's I have test driven (Asian or European). I like the T-case shifter due to my distrust of electrical switches. I really like the 460/early 461 hydraulic pull knobs for the lockers, I mean how cool is that.
But sometimes you just have to have faith in the electrical componentry and that is why I said what I did about going all the way from a tech standpoint.

I think my perfect 460 would be a custom built 2850 mm 2 door open top with half doors and folding windsheild, F&R lockers, extended filler neck with saddle tanks, n/a om606 motor vs om606a (not decided) with a stock 4spd auto box, regeared R&P for 33" tires on 16" Hutch rims, 1 1/2" lift, fender flares, upgraded front disc brakes, split rear bumper with built in fog and aux rear backup light, towpin front Canada style bullbar and bumper and side load rings. Add heated Recaro seats in square weave "black" cloth, forward folding driver's seat and lockable storage box passenger seat, 2 rear forward facing seats replaceable by side mounted jumpseats, jumpseats in the far rear, wood floor with load rails, rubber 460 mats as seen on almost all exposed metal with rear floor overlay mat. Interior center console with programmable Webasto heater, manual crank drivers window, power passenger window. Tan exterior color in a matte or eggshell finish with light brown or olive soft top, walk-on hood, stock roofrack for soft top, Schmude hardtop for winter with rear wiper, rear swing away spare and single Nato can holder, heated side view 460 mirrors.

A bit jumbled and I'm sure I forgot a few things, but that's the gist of it.

 

[zimm]

some things dont add to me...

you go diesel from the get go if you want diesel. the ROI isnt there unless youre a delivery truck driver.

....keeping that in mind, if you gotta do it, do it when the gasser is blown..

....keeping that in mind, you'll want the cheapest 463 you can get..and the simplest.

seems to me that would be a high mileage m104 3.2.

or, just rip the entire drivetrain to the drive shafts out of a well worn 460 and replace it with mb rebuilt parts...



but i think the best thing to do, is sell what you have, save money, and strike fast when a nice diesel rears its head.

 

[mk216v]

What makes a part time 4WD vehicle less safe than a full time 4WD vehicle?

You've probably already seen Harald's info, but if not;

http://rubicon-trail.com/4WD101/4WD-AWD-autoAWD.html

Just a bit more stability/safety from full time 4WD vs part time 4WD IMHO.

 

[mk216v]

AWD with an open center diff is better on snow and ice at highway speeds than 2wd or 4wd. The radius of a turn differs between front and rear wheels, this can cause the car to break loose if the front and rear are locked together like in a true 4wd; 2wd is probably safer on icey highways compared to 4wd, but 4wd is great for getting out of the ditch.

The issue with the different 463 models is difficult. They are all really nice cars, the V6 G320 among the nicest. I have a preference for the 463-249 largely because of the frustration I had with extended duration of repairs on my 300GD, a secondary effect of owning a grey market vehicle. That said, I would rather have almost any model 463 before I would buy some of the other imported SUV's I have test driven (Asian or European). I like the T-case shifter due to my distrust of electrical switches. I really like the 460/early 461 hydraulic pull knobs for the lockers, I mean how cool is that.
But sometimes you just have to have faith in the electrical componentry and that is why I said what I did about going all the way from a tech standpoint.

I think my perfect 460 would be a custom built 2850 mm 2 door open top with half doors and folding windsheild, F&R lockers, extended filler neck with saddle tanks, n/a om606 motor vs om606a (not decided) with a stock 4spd auto box, regeared R&P for 33" tires on 16" Hutch rims, 1 1/2" lift, fender flares, upgraded front disc brakes, split rear bumper with built in fog and aux rear backup light, towpin front Canada style bullbar and bumper and side load rings. Add heated Recaro seats in square weave "black" cloth, forward folding driver's seat and lockable storage box passenger seat, 2 rear forward facing seats replaceable by side mounted jumpseats, jumpseats in the far rear, wood floor with load rails, rubber 460 mats as seen on almost all exposed metal with rear floor overlay mat. Interior center console with programmable Webasto heater, manual crank drivers window, power passenger window. Tan exterior color in a matte or eggshell finish with light brown or olive soft top, walk-on hood, stock roofrack for soft top, Schmude hardtop for winter with rear wiper, rear swing away spare and single Nato can holder, heated side view 460 mirrors.

A bit jumbled and I'm sure I forgot a few things, but that's the gist of it.

Oh, I initially misunderstood you about the preMBUSA W463 t-case shifter....you preferring it over electrical button on MBUSA W463. I thought you were saying later preMBUSA W463 had improved t-case shifter over early preMBUSA W463.

Hehe, your perfect W460(amazing BTW) sounds sorta similar to an INCREDIBLE W461 I know of coming to the States....if only I didn't need room for 4 dogs would I be all over it. Someone is going to get the deal of the century on that rig.
You still have that recent red Kastenwagen in your head I can tell.

Thoughts on manual vs auto for overlanding Eric?

 

[mk216v]

some things dont add to me...

you go diesel from the get go if you want diesel. the ROI isnt there unless youre a delivery truck driver.

....keeping that in mind, if you gotta do it, do it when the gasser is blown..

....keeping that in mind, you'll want the cheapest 463 you can get..and the simplest.

seems to me that would be a high mileage m104 3.2.

or, just rip the entire drivetrain to the drive shafts out of a well worn 460 and replace it with mb rebuilt parts...



but i think the best thing to do, is sell what you have, save money, and strike fast when a nice diesel rears its head.

Few W463 diesel's in the USA is the issue....moreover if they're not turbo'd they're fairly slow and not highway friendly.

Keep in mind 606A into a W463 is more of an ultimate goal than short term reality. I'm just trying to do this once and do it right.

 

[zimm]

whats your budget for this?

there was a nice low mileage 4 door factory diesel for sale about 6-8 months ago. it was posted on d-90 source. the guy finally called me back and by that time i was "meh" about switching to a diesel. he was asking 30. if i went a digging, i may be able able to find the communication.

 

[mk216v]

whats your budget for this?

there was a nice low mileage 4 door factory diesel for sale about 6-8 months ago. it was posted on d-90 source. the guy finally called me back and by that time i was "meh" about switching to a diesel. he was asking 30. if i went a digging, i may be able able to find the communication.

I'm willing to pay for a clean rig.

Thanks for thinking about this one. Is it the green '91 300GD?
http://www.exportautosales.com/
http://69.9.37.142/disc/forums/showthread.php?tid=16505

 

[zimm]

that was it. i couldnt justify the ROI on 30g. at that price point i'd sooner get a g500, toss a couple jerrys on the back and have a much ballsier rig that wouldnt need a r&p change for 35's, and did great on the highway.

buuuut, it looks nice, and if the mileage true, you shouldnt have any maint issues like me.... if thats still up for sale.... its been up for quite some time... he may be more eager to sell.

i'd just make an offer you can live with, and remind him once a week.

 

[mk216v]

that was it. i couldnt justify the ROI on 30g. at that price point i'd sooner get a g500, toss a couple jerrys on the back and have a much ballsier rig that wouldnt need a r&p change for 35's, and did great on the highway.

buuuut, it looks nice, and if the mileage true, you shouldnt have any maint issues like me.... if thats still up for sale.... its been up for quite some time... he may be more eager to sell.

i'd just make an offer you can live with, and remind him once a week.

Bit rich for me even though it is a W463 300GD. I need a W463 with more pep outta the box.