Vehicle Modding Is Dead In the European Union; Now What?

calicamper

Expedition Leader
There is room for all of these technologies to thrive. It is unfortunate that scientific innovation is often coupled with political agendas. I appreciate any technology that enhances my life and pursuits. It is disheartening that, like so many things now, we are expected to declare an allegiance to one technology over another in order to affirm our own or others political insecurities. People will choose the technology that suits their respective lifestyle and purpose. To vilify the ICE without offering an equivalent option seems very naive and disingenuous. Hopefully, the future will deliver systems that offer as much or even more capability than the internal combustion engine. I hope so. Until then, it is my best option for hauling my family and gear in the backcountry for sustained travel.
And why I have a 3.5L twin turbo truck, and a plug-in hybrid at home. Why my house has been basically 100% solar powered for 6 yrs, and why I don’t have a battery backup on my house. I have a 3500watt gas powered generator ?. 30-45hrs a yr the generator gets used, its a cheap efficient solution vs the stupidly expensive battery option that would be dead by day 2 due to smoky skies ie no solar juice ???
 
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85_Ranger4x4

Well-known member
In 1925 a steam tractor cost ~ $1500. My grandfathers new tractor cost $435; affordable on a farm with income about $2500/year.

I was making no comment on regulations. One reason ICE engines were popular is that the average person could afford one. Steamers and electric vehicles were for the rich.

Very few people owned a steamer outright, same with thrashing machines. Neighborhoods formed co-ops where a bunch of guys would pool their money to buy on a steam powered tractor and thrashing machine. All the owners basically formed a "crew" and they would travel around all the farms in the co-op with their machinery doing what needed done.

And I fully agree, most people farmed with horses until after the war. I suppose a bunch of kids coming home used to jeeps and tanks and whatnot convinced their fathers it was time to update. There was a lot of pent up demand during the war when it was hard to get new machinery too.

For EV's... they do nothing for me. I live in the sticks, my truck lives outside, its 100 miles to anywhere, I tow a fair bit, I love the snarl of both trucks at startup... they are just kind of a nothingburger for me at the moment without even getting to how all EV trucks have to look flipping stupid with ridiculous cost... and that is on top of the ridiculous cost of a new stupid looking ICE powered truck.
 
The earth's climate has been changing for eons. The primary drivers have always been the variability of the sun's output, the earth's wobble, migrating magnetic field, and volcanic eruptions, among others. I don't see how eliminating vehicle modifications will affect any of them.
I agree with you re most vehicle mods.
However, I, and probably several other participants would be delighted to prove to you that current climate change, since 1750, is absolutely due to (too many) humans burning (too rapidly) fossil fuels. And furthermore it is occurring orders of magnitude more rapidly than previous carbon related climactic catastrophes like the PETM (Paleo-Eocene Thermal Maximum) 56Mya. The only catastrophe which occurred more rapidly was the well known KT impact 66Mya. The Siberian Traps flood basalt eruptions caused even a higher extinction event than KT, 250Mya - the Permian-Triassic mass extinction; but it took a couple of million years.
Anyways, I would be happy to explain paleoclimatology, positive and negative feedbacks, and the extreme rapidity of current events in a PM or 2 if you’re open to it. Including the 100% ironclad evidence that it’s due to humans burning reduced carbon that was buried over the last ~350My.
Anyways, I think the losses of outfits like Hellgeth and Atlas for Unimogs, and similar outftfor other vehicles, is tragic and ridiculous and due to mindless bureaucratic overreach.
But let’s not forget why the EU is necessary: 1.5 millennia of idiotic wars ending with WW1 and 2; and now we’ve moved on from electromagnetic force weapons (chemical explosives) to weapons that use the residual strong force (nukes).
No more European (or other) wars, please. That’s why I support EU.
 

toylandcruiser

Expedition Leader
Freedom's cool and all but roads are public places where one man's "freedom" is another man's funeral.

In my wildest fantasies I like to pretend there can be nuance, where humans exercise reason on a high resolution basis and can recognize a position between Boolean extremes - for example periodic safety inspections with some defined flexibility for reasonably well engineered modifications and old survivors - but one glance at the news or literally any forum including this one dashes that fantasy to bits.

So... whatever. Smoke 'em if you got 'em.

It’s let of the risk of driving a multi ton vehicle at 60 plus mph?
 

billiebob

Well-known member
ICE vehicles became the choice for common people because it was superior technology.
now that is your opinion, but not fact, do the research
and include finding out why the GM RV1 in the 1990s was scrapped
and there were many detractors from gas automobiles who preferred the clean instant starting electric choice
but Henrys plan was gasoline only. Standard Oil wanted to dominate the energy field and they both had the drive and focus to bend the will of the people and the finances to buy the political will to "git 'er done".

We have adapted to ignore the disadvantages of fossil fuels but the world is evolving and the writing is on the wall
In 1990 GM put the EV to bed. Today the world is putting the gas engine to bed.
 

AZBaobab

Observer
To the OP, has anything about this requirement for inspections been verified? I tried looking it up, and all I'm able to see is that those inspection requirements apply IF one wants to register their vehicle as a "classic".
Seems entirely optional to me.


"The classic car law specifies that you can register any car that is 25 or more years old as a classic car."
(emphasis added)

Likewise, if said article is to be believed, there isn't / wasn't much advantage to having a vehicle registered as such...
"Thanks to the current classic car law, you can drive your classic car at any time of day or night without any mileage limits.
Previously, you could only take your classic car out for test drives within a radius of 25 km, or drive it to and from classic car meetings. Moreover, this could only be done during daylight hours. All that is now a thing of the past!"


And I know a lot of the "classic" vehicles being talked about here were used a lot more than that... Hence could not have been registered/licensed as "classic".
My guess is the guy originally quoted in the OP had got his info wrong.
Unless there's some other law out there that I'm missing... But I don't think so, as the inspection schedule seems to line up...


"Since 20 May 2018, classic cars in Flanders must also undergo regular classic vehicle inspection. The regularity depends on the age of the vehicle:

  • Between 25 and 30 years old: at normal intervals.
  • Between 30 and 50 years old: every two years.
  • Over 50 years old: every five years."
 

JaSAn

Grumpy Old Man
now that is your opinion, but not fact, do the research
. . .
but Henrys plan was gasoline only. Standard Oil wanted to dominate the energy field and they both had the drive and focus to bend the will of the people and the finances to buy the political will to "git 'er done".
. . .

So, what were the electric cars in 1920 - 1940 that an average wage earner could afford, had the ability to recharge, and could match the range of a gas powered vehicle?
By the time WWII ended, returning soldiers had experience with ICE power and wanted it for their personal transportation. By the 1960's ICE vehicles were firmly entrenched in the American culture.

Henry Ford's genius was to make a vehicle that the average family could afford.
Standard Oil's genius was to make gasoline universally available.
There was no 'bend the will off the people' - they provided what people wanted: a car they could afford and the ability to travel the country in it, at a time when electricity was not widely available.
Electric vehicles are finally catching up in the 21st century.
 

nicholastanguma

Los Angeles, San Francisco
To the OP, has anything about this requirement for inspections been verified? I tried looking it up, and all I'm able to see is that those inspection requirements apply IF one wants to register their vehicle as a "classic".
Seems entirely optional to me.


Yes, multiple sources living in different European countries have verified this info to me. This EU law was just passed at the end of 2020, and is in its roll-out stage of implementation right now.

You are correct in that this law specifically applies to that European classification of vehicle known as "Old Timer." The new law mandates that for anyone to register either his automobile or motorcycle as an Old Timer the vehicle may only be factory spec per the year it was manufactured.

I have been told there is still some wiggle room allowed in this Old Timer section of law in some of the EU countries where vintage auto and moto lobbies have enough weight to negotiate with the government. In Germany for instance, where the infamously strict TUV has been in place for decades, there is a huge vintage motorsport community with some government clout, so if one knows how to properly navigate TUV then this new EU-wide law isn't the end of all modification culture.

Similar situations exist in other countries, as well, so for example Poland's healthy vintage racing culture will likely survive, especially as Poland is well known for defying EU mandates whenever Poland deems the EU Parliament has overstepped its bounds. Italy also has had certain very strict modification laws in place for years and years, but I've been told that one can make any mods one wants to one's vehicle in between the times of official technical inspection, although if the carabinieri need to fill a monthly quota then modded vehicles suddenly become a target even before official technical inspection. Surprisingly, a Swedish enthusiast has informed me his country's vintage and custom vehicle laws are relatively easy to navigate despite his govt's famous hatred for all things That Make Mother Gaia Cry.

Other countries have no wiggle room whatsoever, even surprisingly Hungary, which in the past decade has become famous for its clashes with EU Parliament when the Hungarian govt feels trod upon. One would think Hungary would be a wonderfully unrestricted place for vehicle modification based upon its habit of regularly giving EU Parliament the finger, but alas, a Hungarian enthusiast on ADVrider tells me the complete opposite is true! He says it's common among Hungarian moto riders to deride their country as "Absurdistan" for its inexplicably hard stance against modified vehicle culture. A Portugese rider tells me his country is warning all moto enthusiasts that there will be stricter new technical inspections now, but as of yet hasn't yet gotten around to actually doing anything, so it's kind of like the sword of Damocles for them at the moment, especially as apparently the Portugese govt has been threatening moto riders with such strictness since something like 2016 or 17.

Basically, EU Parliament is most certainly an oligarchy of self righteous bureaucrats, but individual countries still have some leeway in exactly how they will implement the minutae of EU mandates after the collective royal scepter has been waved across the land; it pretty much comes down to how strong an individual country's recreational vehicle lobby is. Belgium, I'm told, has an Old Timer lobby, but it's very weak, thus Belgium's adoption of the zero tolerance stance.

For the record: most of my overseas contacts in the vintage and modification culture are found on the ADVrider forum, the Royal Enfield forum, and the Vintage Engine Tech subforum of the Speed Talk forum. The remaining contacts are found here on Expo and the Samba forum.

If you'd like to read through what I consider to be the most informative firsthand accounts of Europeans currently dealing with the implementation of this new EU law: https://advrider.com/f/threads/is-this-really-happening-in-europe.1498140/


Also for the record: why would anyone in the EU want to register their vehicles as Old Timers?

1) In some countries the annual insurance, taxation, and registration costs are a bit lower.

2) In some countries the restrictions against modifications have historically been fewer.


In some places the insurance, taxes, and registration were actually more expensive than for regular vehicles, nonetheless the modification restrictions were still fewer, and clearly for anyone in the modding and racing culture this would still be worthwhile.
 
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JaSAn

Grumpy Old Man
I agree with you re most vehicle mods.
However, I, and probably several other participants would be delighted to prove to you that current climate change, since 1750, is absolutely due to (too many) humans burning (too rapidly) fossil fuels.
. . .
No more European (or other) wars, please. That’s why I support EU.
I thank you for your generous offer but I just cannot give the time your efforts would require. My current position is that I will start to take anthropogenic climate change seriously when I see our leaders take it serious in their public and personal lives.

I heartily agree with your no wars sentiment but unfortunately history teaches otherwise.
 

thebmrust

Active member
Anyone think that maybe electric vehicles are designed to get the rural people back to the cities where the infrastructure will be rebuilt? Forced moves will free up the land that the ultra rich and corporations can buy cheap and control the resources like water & food production?
 

billiebob

Well-known member
Electrifying a classic vehicle is a serious consideration as a novelty, as an exercise in individual engineering hands-on education, as a showcase of technology, as a means to recycle old equipment to keep it viable in a changing supply landscape
Oh no you are being short sighted, a company in LA has been retrofitting Beetles for over 40 years with great success and accolades from customers. niche, yes, novelty, no.

1939 Chevy, repowered.... is this not beautiful ?


1939-Chevrolet-Pickup-Electric-Conversion-slideshow-019.jpg
 
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billiebob

Well-known member
Anyone think that maybe electric vehicles are designed to get the rural people back to the cities where the infrastructure will be rebuilt? Forced moves will free up the land that the ultra rich and corporations can buy cheap and control the resources like water & food production?
It is easier to transport electricity to rural areas via transmission lines than to plug the highways with tanker trucks. The distriburion of electricity already exists. And it is more than adequate since we can schedule charging cars in the wee hours when load is minimized.

If you don't like the ultra rich controlling resources, quit voting for the party cutting their taxes.
 

billiebob

Well-known member
So, what were the electric cars in 1920 - 1940 that an average wage earner could afford,
Absolutely. before Henry Ford no one could afford a car. Before Henry Ford they were all expensive. Fact is if Henrys whim had been electric cars..... we'd be driving them today.

The source of power has always been competitive. Mass production, marketing is the only difference.
100 horsepower is 100 horsepower.

Electric power is just getting to the point of being competitive on a mass production scale, but in racing it is blowing away the competition. I hear NASCAR is looking at a series for electric stock cars.... that'll be kool.
 
D

Deleted member 9101

Guest
My current position is that I will start to take anthropogenic climate change seriously when I see our leaders take it serious in their public and personal lives.


Exactly!!! John Kerrys house isn't solar powered and his private jet isn't electric... If we're in such dire straights then one would think that he would have dome something in his personal life other than "offset his carbon footprint with credits."
 

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