Van heating thread

Mwilliamshs

Explorer
If you have a heater in your van, whether it's forced air, catalytic, etc what do you think of it?
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An example of what I'm looking for in an ideal answer:
"I have a 8,000 BTU XYZ propane heater inside my Ford EB with an ABC top with X" of XYZ insulation. I camp in temperatures as cold as XX*F (or XXX*C) and I think this heater is...ideal, barely sufficient, too big, etc. It uses barely any, way too much, just the right amount of fuel, etc."
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I'm having a hard time deciding how many BTUs it takes to heat a van [see below] and am looking for reviews of heaters like the Everest Star forced-air furnaces (smallest modern model of their type I've found), the Olympian waves (3, 6 and 8), etc. I'm familiar with the Buddy heaters and am looking for something safer and more permanent and smaller but if you've had good luck with one might as well share for the collective.
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Here’s some data. Make that LOTS. It’s actually based on a 2013 Ford EB but as the vans changed very little, and if anything got slightly larger as time went by, I think these numbers should be accurate enough for my 1989 model estimations.


Cargo Area Length @ Floor to Console:158.7"

Cargo Area Length @ Floor to Seat: 142.4"

Cargo Box Width @ Wheelhousings: 52.5"

Cargo Volume: 278.3 ft3

Wheelbase: 138.0”

Length, Overall w/rear bumper: 236.4”

Width, Max w/o mirrors: 79.4”

Height, Overall: 82.6” (doesn’t include Penthouse)

Ground to Top of Load Floor: 28.6”

Rear Door Opening Height: 49.5”

Rear Door Opening Width: 53.9”

Side Door Opening Height: 48.1”

Side Door Opening Width: 44.8”
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Now some common sense: if it’s really cold out and you’re trying to stay warm in your van you should curtain off the front end. With the windshield, windows, doors, vents, etc it’s a very inefficient space to heat. The same is true of the penthouse top, so close it. Doing those two things leaves us a box that is from floor to ceiling (overall height 82.6” - ground to load floor 28.6”) 54”, and from the rear of the front seats to the rear doors, 142.4” long, and from side to side (ignoring the wheel-wells’ volume, so we’ll use overall width without mirrors) 79.4”. That volume, 54”x142.4”x79.4,” rounded off, is 610,550 cubic inches, or ~350 cubic feet. This is the space we’ll try to calculate the heat needs of. Ford calls it 278.3 ft3. They're probably right, but I want to exaggerate the need to prevent under-sizing the furnace.
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Now the floor, at our hypothetical 80”(6.667 ft) x 142.4” (11.667 ft) has an area of 77.78 sq feet, is entirely steel (single-wall), and as steel’s R value is about 0.003 per inch, it’s practically nonexistent as insulation (great conductor though) but it is nice and wind-proof so there’s something. The side walls (54” x 142.4”, 53.4 sq ft each) are likewise steel (and largely single-wall) but also have large openings in them for the passenger-side doors, (48.1” x 44.8”, 14.9 sq ft) and their windows, (19-5/16" x 19-1/8", 2.5 sq ft each) and I also have a sliding window on each side that’s 42” x 15”, 4.375 sq ft. This makes them even worse from an insulation standpoint. The passenger side is 29.125 sq ft of continuous steel plus the doors themselves @ 14.9 sq ft, so 44.025 sq ft of steel (windows already deducted) and the driver’s side is 49.025 sq ft of steel (window deducted). The side glass totals 13.75 sq ft. The rear wall, 30 sq ft, minus the windows, is 25 sq ft of steel and 5 sq of glass. The roof is slightly better when it’s down due to being fiberglass vs steel, R 2.5/in vs .003/in, and has the 4”or so mattress and ½” plywood (maybe 3/4, I dunno) and upholstery serving as insulation. The fiberglass roof itself shares its dimensions with the floor (hypothetically of course) at 77.78 sq ft and about ⅜” thick (.375 x 2.5/in = .94 R), and the bed is 42”×78”, 22.75 sq ft, of mattress foam (4” x 3/in = 12R), upholstery (.125 in x 1.60/in [vinyl] = 0.2R), and plywood (.75in x 1.10/in =.825R). This all adds up to the Penthouse top (when down) having an approximate R value of 13.965.
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Assuming the curtain at the front seats is uninsulated but draft-free, and no other insulation is present in the rear of the van, we have a volume of 350 cubic ft and an exterior surface area of 77.78 sq ft penthouse [27%] @ (13.97R) + 195.83 sq ft steel [67%] @ (0.0R) + 18.75 sq ft glass [6%] @ (0.91/in R) = 292.36 sq ft. That ~292 sq ft has an average R value of 3.55.
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Let’s say the coldest I want to camp is 30* outside and I want it 65* inside. That’s a difference of 35*, all in fahrenheit. How much heat do I need?
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There’s an equation for that:
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Heat loss = Q/t= (area)(Temp in - Temp out)
Thermal Resistance
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If we’re using units of BTU/hr for Q, sq ft for area, and *F for temperature, Thermal Resistance will be the “R value” unit, convenient, huh?
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okay so BTU/hr is what we want to know, (292.36sq ft)(35*)/R3.55= 2,882 BTU/hr heat loss.
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So if the van is 65* inside when you park and shut it off, and it’s losing 2,882 BTU/hr, you need to put 2,882 back in (plus a bit for drafts, wind, etc, call it 3,000) just to maintain the 65* you started at. If you started at 30* and want to warm it up to 65* it’ll take about 8,000 BTU to get there at all (because the greater the temp difference, the greater the loss and you’re starting with 30* air inside), and more BTUs output means faster warmup. Forced air is also much faster than radiant due to air movement across the heat exchanger. In reality, if my van was already 30* and I wanted it 65* I’d crank up the engine and it’s heater, and whatever heater I had until it hit 65* then switch off the engine and let the heater maintain. I have a lot more gasoline capacity and it’s a lot easier to replenish than propane.
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So let’s say we can add 2” of insulation to the walls and doors, 1” to the floor, and we cover all the windows and get them up from R0.91 to R2. R6.7 Ultratouch is my current pick for walls and doors. R3 rigid foam for the floor, ½ foam between two sheets of ¼” plywood (R 0.55) so the floor is now 77.78 sq ft (27%) of R3.55, the 18.75 sq ft of glass (6%) is R2, the side walls are 93.05 sq ft (32%) of R6.7 [+ .155, see below], the rear wall is 25 sq ft (8%) of R6.7 [+. 155, see below], and the roof remains 77.78 sq ft (27%) of R13.965. Our average R value is now 7.58, an improvement of over 100% (more than twice as insulated).
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Heat loss is now (292.36 sq ft)(35*)/7.58R= 1,349.95 BTU/hr, an improvement of over 100% (losing less than half as much in the same time period). So keeping a 65* van with insulation at 65* requires ~1350 BTU/hr and taking it from 30* to 65* needs ~3,500.
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At current prices, the insulation for the walls is $36.00/case at Home Depot and 4 cases will cover the walls plus a bit left over to stuff in random cavities. The floor foam is $12.58/sheet and 6 sheets is the easiest way to install it even though 5 sheets would technically cover it. The plywood is $16.25 a sheet, again 6 sheets is best. That’s ~$315 for over 100% improvement in heat retention. This would leave bare insulation on the walls to be covered as you please. I’ll likely use ⅛” plywood underlayment at $12.97 a sheet. As this product will show and neatness counts, 8 sheets gives the needed material to point joints in the right places and trim the doors neatly. Another $104 and another 118.05 sq feet of plywood at 1/8" thick, so (.125 x 1.24= R.155), which raises the R value of the walls (side and rear) [see above]. So insulating and trimming the rear of the van costs $420 in material plus screws and glue, etc.
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With the top popped, that 42”×78”x30" area (just the canvas walls and vinyl windows) has 0 R value. Adding 56.875 cubic feet and assuming the bed is raised up against the roof (worst case scenario, vs the bed separating the cold "attic" from the warm interior), the average R value becomes 6.28 and the area becomes 349.235 sq ft. This makes the heat loss 1,946.37 BTU/hr. That means insulating the van and popping the top is better than keeping the top down uninsulated, by about 1/3!
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I think I'd really like the Wave catalytic heaters for their efficiency (no wasted propane), lack of electical needs (no blower), simplicity (no moving parts, no holes to cut in the van), etc but I'm stuck on sizes. These heaters do require fresh air venting (open window, etc) and do introduce humidity. The biggest trouble in selecting one is the limited range of adjustment on these heaters. The Wave 3 (3000 BTU max) adjusts from 1600 to 3000 BTU/hr (plenty to maintain temp in an insulated van but not enough to heat it from 30 to 65 and definitely not enough for an uninsulated van. I think it would gradually get colder and colder in spite of the heater being on high constantly which is inefficient), while the 6 goes from 3200 to 6000 BTU/hr (enough to maintain temp in an insulated van running most of the time on low [3200/2=1600 so roughly 50% duty cycle to hold van at 65 in 30 weather], more than enough to heat it on high, but still insufficient for an uninsulated van) and the 8 is adjustable from 4200 - 8000 BTU/hr (maintain 65 in an insulated van at 35% duty cycle on low and can heat an uninsulated van too). The only overlap amongst any of the 3 models is between the 6 and 8 and I think more heat than needed is better than too little (can always turn off the 8 if you only need 3000 BTU but can't ever get enough BTUs from the 3 if what you need is 5500, but can get that amount from either the 6 or the 8 but who wants to turn their heater on and off every 20 minutes? On the other hand, if someone with a similar or comparable van has camped colder than I ever will and only needed 6000 BTU or less I could save $ and space by not buying the 8, or the 6 if 3000 BTU was enough...
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Wave Heater dimensions:
Wave 8: 21 1/4"H x 15"W x 4"D, 16.95 lbs
Wave 6: 17 7/8"H x 12 13/16"W x 4"D, 12.9 lbs
Wave 3: 11 3/4"H x 10 1/4"W x 3 1/2"D, 6.85 lbs
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Wave heaters are 90% or better efficient relative to propane and use no electricity.
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On the other hand, the Everest Star forced-air furnaces are super safe without any venting, reduce moisture rather than create it, and are more widely available used. They are very powerful though. Available in output ratings of 9,120, 9,160, 12,160, and 13,680 BTU/hr. They do require electricity, under 2 amps on the lowest power model, and do require cutting a hole in the van's outer wall. They also waste heat by blowing their (hot but noxious) exhaust outside. The lowest power model @ 9,120 BTU output can maintain 65 in an uninsulated van @ about 30% duty cycle, heat it with over 1,000 BTU spare and maintain an insulated van @ 14.8% duty cycle. That means about 9 minutes (8.88) of an hour it's running to hold 65 in 30 degree weather. 8.88 minutes/hr @ 1.8amps is under 6.5AH per day (6.33) if it stays 30* and you just let it run. Taint bad.
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That exhaust flows through this \/

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Everest Dimensions: 11 3/8"H x 8 3/8"W x 20 1/2"D, 23 lbs. Vent cutout size: 2-1/2" H x 4-7/8" W.
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Interesting:the smallest wave and the Everest Star have similar surface footprints (face of a cabinet for example).
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Based on their own ratings, these furnaces are 75% efficient relative to propane. (Big heat exchanger)
Plus needed electricity.
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Also interested in the Propex and Espar heaters. I've seen the Heatsource HS2800 (9,550 BTU output) and the smaller HS2000 (about 6,500 BTU output) in Vanagons. Any reviews? They seem to have all the advantages of the Everest Star in a smaller package that also allows venting through the floor instead of the wall and needs no surface space at all except for the heat outlet vent(s). They do seem more sophisticated than I'd think necessary in a propane furnace with micro-processors and trouble-codes being blinked out by flashing LEDs. Both models consume just under 2 amps of current whilst running (unclear whether that's for 12 or 24 volts tho)
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Based on their own ratings, these furnaces are 90% efficient relative to propane. (Tiny heat exchanger)
Plus needed electricity.
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No matter what heater is chosen a CO2/CO monitor is of course needed.
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So yeah...I'm fishing for info but let's not rehash the Buddy heater debate of safety or the venting needs of the wave. I think we all expect folks smart enough to be here to be smart enough to read the billion other posts about that
 
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jkam

nomadic man
I have a Wave 3 in my Lazy Daze 24 Ft. RV.
I won't be able to give you too much info other than for me it works well and provides the heat I need when it gets too cold for me to be comfortable. I am not one that gets cold easily so I don't use it often, but it is easy to use, takes up very little space and is very efficient. No power is what I wanted and it is plumbed into my propane tank with a 10 foot hose and quick connect so I can move it around to different places in the rig. It doesn't put out much in the way of heat compared to forced aire so it does need to be placed where it can provide heat where you want it.
It will raise the inside temp 10 to 15 degrees over time and that is fine for my needs. The silence and efficiency of it made it my choice. I have a furnace in my rig which is noisy and power hungry so it never gets used.
 

Jb1rd

Explorer
Stock AS B190 Heater

My B190 has a forced air unit that is loud as the dickens when it fires up and not much better but def tolerable when it gets up to temp, not sure of BTU's but as far as propane use goes it is efficent but not so much for the battery. Although I have only needed it a handful of times it has done the job it needed to do. Not sure what kind of insulation is in the van but it does not seem to be much, the type of camping is across the board, tropical to 12k feet. Def will be watching this thread!!!!
 
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flightcancled

Explorer
I just installed an Espar D1. It's sweet! The install is a bit of a pain to do correctly and in a manner that conserves space, but the results are worth it. I would recommend the cheaper standard control unit and a temp sensor. No programming or battery drain.

Edit: It is important to point out that your heat source requirements will be greater if you aren't well insulated. Although some may decide they would rather just go heavy duty with their heat/AC than pull everything apart to do a complete insulation job.
 

86scotty

Cynic
I have a Suburban forced air furnace in my older Sportsmobile. It is LOUD. It puts out heat, but seems to run a lot more than my former furnace. I don't know what BTU rating it is. In the homebuild before this SMB I bought an EverestStar from Panther RV. It was super quiet and worked well. I loved it. I wish I had one in my current van. Honestly though, instead of buying an EverestStar my next one will probably be a Propex. Super small and now they have a model which can be totally mounted outside (underneath) the vehicle, but of course you've got to duct in the pipe somehow which means a pretty big hole in the floor. IIRC they are about $200 more than the EverestStar but saving space is worth it to me, and no holes/vents in the side of the van.
 

Stitebunny

Adventurer
I have a Propex 2800 in our E350 EB van with penthouse top. I mounted it in the right rear corner on the floor and ran the heater tube under the rear bench/bed to let out in the 'living area' of the 50 style floor plan. The walls of the van have only one layer of reflectix and the pop top has no extra insulation. With the top down the heater will provided more than enough heat in temperatures probably as low as you want. Although we've only been to about 20-25*. With the top up it is definitely less efficient, but if the upper bed platform is lowered it helps keep the heat down below. My wife and kid like it to be warm in there. Near freezing temps I will set the thermostat so that we are warm, t-shirt for the kid, long sleeve shirt for me and fleece for the wife, and the heater will cycle on and off. That usually has the dial about in the middle. Once we go to bed I turn it down to a 1/4 or so for the night and it still keeps it quite cozy. It does make some noise. But I like it. We run a loud fan at home at night and this heater has a nice white noise effect for me. It would be easy to sound proof around it depending on your install if you don't like the fan noise.
I think it is the perfect heater for our use. We stay in the ski lots and do some winter camping here in the PNW and it works great. Can't speak much for the fuel use. I currently am using a 20lb propane tank I set outside. So when it's empty, I fill it up. I have and plan to install a tank from a Westy at some point, so fuel use will be of concern at some point due to the much smaller tank.

FWIW-We have friends who lived in their RB van with an unmodified top for a year. They used a wave 3 and it worked well for them. They chased the snow all winter and I never heard any complaints about the heater.
 

java

Expedition Leader
I have a Suburban (I think!) 13-16k btu in my 20' RV. Walls are 1.25" styrofoam insulation, not the good stuff, just like white packing foam. Floor is 1 1/8" plywood, no insulation, E350 cab, no insulation. I have camped at -5, I usually keep it around 55 inside, which the heater does fine. I got 5 nights, most of which were in the teens, out of my last tank of propane, and it was completely empty, (7 gallons filled) with some cooking also. At that temp the floor is sometimes icy, very very cold.

Its loud, but does not induce more moisture, does take a fair bit of battery to run the blower, but will get it warm. I don't mind it, it doesn't run constantly. I would definitely use something similar again, they are cost effective as far as heaters go, not the most efficient, but not bad. You can warm you hands on the exhaust while outside too :D

If I were to build a van, I would do as much insulation as humanly possible. Mine is a Winnebago box, and its just not well insulated. Ill be working on that at some point, but its a huge project. For example, the wheel wells are just a fiberglass shell.... you can see through them when its sunny out. The cab floor just has house carpet on it, glued down with some unknown sticky as all hell substance. I have a curtain I hang across the cab, it makes a big difference, but wastes space. Insulated window blankets help too.
 

Bbasso

Expedition Leader
I don't have a lot of details for you but I'll give you my thoughts and opinions on my setup. I have a 2001 EB E350 fiberglass hi top, inside is completely lined with a single layer of reflectix on the walls and ceiling. I have half inch foam board and on the floor I have half inch wood with very nice wool carpeting, on the doors is reflectix with the same wool carpeting on the lower half and on the top half over the reflectix I contact cemented sweat pants material. Basically it's very well insulated the weak part of my vans insulation is the three front windows. behind the front two seats I have one of those thermal curtains which does a very nice job of keeping my heat in the back and the cold upfront. As for my heating system very simple a 20 pound tank of propane and one Mr buddy heater, I think it's rated at 4500 BTU on low and 9000 BTU on high. I've been in temperatures down to the twenties and even then I don't need to put the heater on high. One of the main problems with the van is air leaks from every door which allows the floor to remain cool... Which allows oxygen in which I won't complain about. As for ventilation while using my propane heater I have vent visors on the front two windows, so I keep them open approximately 2 to 3 inches and in the rear of the van I have a fantastic fan mounted in the roof which I keep opened as much as I can without letting rain in.

I've been using the exact same Mr buddy heater for many years now with no complaints and I'm still here to talk about it rather type about it because I haven't died from any fumes lol. Sure I would love to have a espar or similar heater but until i have that kind of money this is more than adequate. I'll run the heater for 1 to 2 hours while setting up camp, jump into my sleeping bag in my hammock which keeps me off the floor before going to bed I'll shut off the heater. reach over turn it on before I have to get out of bed so I don't have to deal with the cold while making my coffee. It's silent so boondocking is very discreet, and very affordable. a 20 pound tank is between $17 and $20 and lasts me approximately 3 weeks and that's also using it for cooking and my little oven and gas grill. (I cook alot)
 
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Herbie

Rendezvous Conspirator
Also worth noting is the new Propex HS2211: http://www.westyventures.com/propex.html

It can be mounted externally, and you duct the hot and return air INTO the van (rather than mounting internally and ducting combustion and exhaust gasses OUT).

If/when I decide I need a heater, this is how I'll be doing it. I have also confirmed from WestyVentures and the UK Propex source that the HS2211 could be fitted with the kit to use with a portable propane tank instead of a hard-mounted tank. This means you could install the heater but wouldn't need to install a fixed tank. (Useful for those of us with limited underbody space)
 

Mwilliamshs

Explorer
Skinny, let's not mix "generators + electric heaters" with single unit heaters. I realize 5k btu is the same whether electric or propane so let's focus on heat, not source. I'm just trying to control/prevent drift.
 
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java

Expedition Leader
Well 6000 BTU's is 1758 wtts, so you would be running a 1500 watt heater most likely. I have one in my RV for when the generator is on or plugged in. It will keep it around 55 when its no colder than 35-40 probably running 100% of the time. Now my truck is bigger than a standard van, but its probably more insulated also.

Im not sure I would go that route, unless you need a genny anyway. It would work fine in a small space I think, but something with a penthouse thats not well insulated, I don't know if it would keep up.


This is me talking from someone who uses their van/RV in the winter 99.99% of the time.
 

simple

Adventurer
I had a Webasto Air Top 2000 in my old 2003 E350 RB Diesel with penthouse top. Insulation was that foil backed plant fiber mat stuff bonded to the walls and reflectix panels over the windows. The system ran on an isolated AGM battery (size was what fit in a factory battery box).
With the pop top down I slept comfortably for 3 nights at a ski resort with air temps in the teens without starting the engine.
There were two things I didn't like about the system. One was that the fan never completely stopped when the unit was on. When the thermostat called for heat, the fan would rev up and blow heat, when the desired temp was met the burner would kick off and the fan would run a cooling cycle, the fan would then go into a slow air circulation mode until the next call for heat. I called Webasto tech support and was told that was how it was designed. The other thing I didn't like was that the Webasto diesel fuel pump made a fairly high pitched clicking sound when pumping fuel into the heater.
 

mikracer

Adventurer
I had a suburban heater in my 95 SMB. It was pretty loud when it was on and would wake me up every time it turned on. I read somewhere that the Wave heaters are nice, but that they are directional so it heats up the things that its pointed at and then eventually heats up the rest of the cabin. Makes me wonder how much space you need between the heater and the object in front of it.
 

Mwilliamshs

Explorer
Added quite a bit of info to the intro. Leaning toward Everest Star at the moment. See consumption calculations listed in follow post(s).
 
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