Vacuum Insulated Composite Panels

LeishaShannon

Adventurer
What about electrical underfloor heating? there are thin film (.3mm) laminates rated between 100W and 200W/m2 available quite cheaply (http://www.thefloorheatingwarehouse.co.uk/acatalog/Ecofilm_Element_Information.html) .
I haven't done a lot of research into them yet but its something we're looking at before we put the vinyl flooring down as they're very light weight and the ~ 2 sqm we require would cost under $100 or so.
They're not going to be as efficient as a good quality reverse cycle AC, but warm feet can go a long way to making you feel warmer.
 

1aquaholic

Adventurer
Hello J !
Thank you for sharing this find.
Was not able to find it directly on their website.
Was it something that they informed you about, may I ask?
If their product works out for you, this might well be the answer to a lot of folks' questions :)
Yes I've talked to them a few times on the phone, my biggest concern, would the foam core hold up bouncing down the road over time, would it crack or delam from the glass with flex. They told me they have been making it for the military and they were making large boxes they would drop out of airplanes to parachute into remote places for small medical facilities. Military have tested and used them for two years with no complaints. They said they can make them up to 40 feet by 10 and different thicknesses.

To late for me on the steel subframe.

2367f664dc500ecd45fe4566f011314f.jpg
 

1aquaholic

Adventurer
I also considered this, but chose not to go down that route, and here's why...
My design was going to use the Webasto ThermoTop coolant heater for the cabin heater, as well as for heating the calorifier. The biggest problem was temperature control, and possible damage to the panels. The coolant gets heated to about 80 degrees and is maintained at that temperature. I found no way, other than restricting flow, to manage that. My conclusion was that there would be significant ebbs and flows with the floor temperature, making it extremely difficult to maintain anywhere near a constant, acceptable temperature inside the cab. As I touched on, the temperature of the pipes running through the panel was also of concern, as well as potential leaks into the core material. A friend has gone down this path (installation wise) but he used domestic hydronic floor heating pipe atop his floor panel and then laid bamboo flooring over that. This was a better solution, repair wise, than I was looking at doing, but it made his floor about 60mm thick. He has still not "commissioned" that system, so I cannot give any real world experiences of how it works.
I would be interested in hearing if you have solutions to the issues that stopped me from going down this path.

I haven't got it completely detailed but I will skin the subframe with a sheet of thin aluminum with a approximately 1 1/2" lip. bring the in and out through the floor in one corner and run tubing on top, haven't decided on what to poor....would really like to use sand, great heat sink and flexible but really heavy. I want the final surface to be something really durable and can rinse out with a hose, like a bed liner or resin, still looking for the right thing. I've seen small diesel powered hydronic heaters that are thermostat controlled so that was my plan in that respect.

j
 

ersatzknarf

lost, but making time
Hi J,

Well, I can certainly understand your concerns.

If they are throwing them out of airplanes, then it'll probably work for this application ;)

Thanks about the sizes and thicknesses. Think that range will be fine.

Really think you have hit on a good potential source :D

LOL ! Yes, I guess it is too late, but you're sure going to have a nice set-up :chef:


Yes I've talked to them a few times on the phone, my biggest concern, would the foam core hold up bouncing down the road over time, would it crack or delam from the glass with flex. They told me they have been making it for the military and they were making large boxes they would drop out of airplanes to parachute into remote places for small medical facilities. Military have tested and used them for two years with no complaints. They said they can make them up to 40 feet by 10 and different thicknesses.

To late for me on the steel subframe.


Please let us know what you learn about attaching the panels and covering the corners...
 

DzlToy

Explorer
I haven't got it completely detailed but I will skin the subframe with a sheet of thin aluminum with a approximately 1 1/2" lip. bring the in and out through the floor in one corner and run tubing on top, haven't decided on what to poor....would really like to use sand, great heat sink and flexible but really heavy. I want the final surface to be something really durable and can rinse out with a hose, like a bed liner or resin, still looking for the right thing. I've seen small diesel powered hydronic heaters that are thermostat controlled so that was my plan in that respect. j

I will try not to get too far off track here, but will instead attempt to share the results of my findings from many hours of research (talking to people about their builds, i.e. real life experience, talking to manufacturers about their products at trade shows and such, reviewing technical data, studies, etc.)

If I were NOT going to use a Vacuum Insulated Panel to build a box or were looking for something a bit more DIY friendly, I would construct a box as follows:

16-20 gauge aluminum sheet glued to polyisocyanurate foam sheet (1.5" thick), glued to 1/16th inch bamboo veneer interior paneling. "Cut outs" can be left for doors and windows, though I would not have any windows that open and only 1-2 windows, likely clerestory for whole camper (assuming small box, like something for the back of an FG)

The exterior of the box, upon completion, would be sprayed with 1/8th inch (each) of Lizard Skin heat and sound insulation. When I am inside, I dont want to hear the outside (people talking, music, dogs, kids, car doors, ATV's, whatever). If I do want to hear the outside, the door is never more than a few feet away. I could care less about cross ventilation for HVAC. (see door example above if desired) The spray seal and laminated/layered paneling creates a sort of "monolithic" cube structure: no seams to leak, no thermal bridging through window frames, no skylights or vents to leak, etc. Nothing at all on the roof or penetrating exterior walls for the same reasons. Clerestory windows would be 2-3 pane with interior blinds/shades for light control. Lizard Skin would be spray over window and door flanges for proper weather sealing and to eliminate thermal bridging.

Now you have a sealed box that can't "leak" heat or sound, in either direction (from the inside out or vice versa). Panels are glued using 3M 78, 90 or 92 series sprays, which do not harm the polyiso foam (about R-7 per inch) and will stick to almost anything. Foam and interior panels can be oriented and laminated in such a way so as to avoid continuous seams, like laying bricks. Once everything is laminated together and sprayed with Lizard Skin, you have a VERY rigid and solid box with only one opening for a door. This goes a long way in making a solid structure, reducing vibration, sound transmission, etc.

From a DIY standpoint, the glue and Lizard Skin can be sprayed DIY or professionally, there is no welding to do on the panels, foam, sheet metal and your favourite interior paneling can be sourced almost any where. All materials chosen are easy to work with: no messy fiberglass work, nasty chemicals, hours of sanding, tubes of Sika to dispose of, etc. The Lizard Skin does not have an R value according to their tech dept, but does have a K value, which is the inverse of R value if I recall correctly. The layers of spray, panel, foam, etc., basically act together to "block" almost all heat and sound. It is reflected back to where it came from, just as it would be if one were to use a vacuum insulated panel. Nothing gets through the vacuum and I am attempting to achieve the same thing with simpler/cheaper DIY technology.

A bonus of this construction method is that HVAC demands are almost non-existent. You could easily heat a small box with a catalytic heater, a mini fireplace, small electric space heater, etc. For A/C, you have fewer options, though I did find a few companies who make miniature air conditioning units. If you were able to avoid hot/humid climates, you may be able to get away with small fans inside or a screen in your door if that meets your needs. I would mount the HVAC under the living space like an OTR truck box for several reasons. The weight is carried down low and not up on the roof where it changes vehicle dynamics or could be damaged by limbs, etc.. It is easier to service there and keeps the penetrations into the living space at the floor level where rain, dust, etc. are less likely to intrude.

Hope that helps some.
 

ersatzknarf

lost, but making time
Hi Dlh62c,
Thanks for the catalog link :)
Agreed that the leading edges and corners will likely see a bit of abuse...
That said, was still sort of thinking that pultruded FRP angles would be a possible solution for covering the corners of the attached panels.
 

SkiFreak

Crazy Person
That said, was still sort of thinking that pultruded FRP angles would be a possible solution for covering the corners of the attached panels.
There is quite a bit of logic in that, as the expansion rate of the panel and the pulltrusion should be similar, plus there is no chance of thermal bridging. I would also think that a pulltrusion angle would be stronger than an aluminium angle. The only challenge would be finding something to do the corners nicely.
 

ersatzknarf

lost, but making time
Thank you and that was the hope...

Somewhere, there is a link for the pultruded angles that I saved and, of course, now that I want it, it's not to be found :(

There is quite a bit of logic in that, as the expansion rate of the panel and the pulltrusion should be similar, plus there is no chance of thermal bridging. I would also think that a pulltrusion angle would be stronger than an aluminium angle. The only challenge would be finding something to do the corners nicely.



Found it ! (I think) : http://www.strongwell.com/products/structural-shapes-and-plate/
 
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westyss

Explorer
There is quite a bit of logic in that, as the expansion rate of the panel and the pulltrusion should be similar, plus there is no chance of thermal bridging. I would also think that a pulltrusion angle would be stronger than an aluminium angle. The only challenge would be finding something to do the corners nicely.

Obviously you are referring to a thin aluminum angle here as it would have to be pretty thick fiberglass to out perform a 1/4 inch thick aluminum corner, I have some scars in my aluminum angle from tree branches hitting the corners! My thoughts are that these branches would make mince meat of glass corners unless they were a multi layered thick glass.
The expansion/contraction can be dealt with by having a Sika like adhesive in a thick enough layer to allow some of that movement needed, it would be better though to have similar materials for sure just that I have doubts of its strength over ally. I wouldn't think there would be any thermal bridging unless the corner has material passing through the wall material into the interior cavity.
 

gait

Explorer
I had a brief look at pultrusions when doing my build. Generally not available to me at the time. As well as box corners it would have been nice to have hatch and door surrounds. I needed "Z", "U" and angle.
.
In engineering terms they seem to be designed for structural bending resistance. The fibres are aligned longitudinally. I thought my box corners and other bits needed some "round the corner" strength. Thicker than equivalent Al extrusions. I didn't look at weight. The thermal properties would have been a vast improvement for the hatches.Diy would have extended the project by 1/3.

I lost a couple of short lengths of Al trim to tree branches. Anything that has a step out facing forwards is a problem.
 

gait

Explorer
had to think about some of the recent posts.

While traveling, on occasion I was entertained in others' vehicles, and occasionally did some internal repairs to help out.

I'm used to ventilation. The heavily insulated with small windows vehicles appeared "stuffy" to me after a very short period of time. As if my own body heat was reflected back at me. What we are used to I guess, and the climate (temperature and humidity) wherever we are. And the vehicle.

One bit caught my eye ... the thought of a fireplace inside a closed space. Sadly, at one time in my working life I helped in the aftermath of a few people in such a setup being asphyxiated with CO2. Hopefully doesn't happen to anyone who reads these pages.
 

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