Tundra vs F150

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bkg

Explorer
That difference in resale value is well known, especially as the trucks get older. Go look at the older (circa 2006-2007) 3/4 ton diesels...they enjoy a substantial resale advantage over their gasoline counterparts, even though some trucks from that era were not well built.
I think part of this is also due to the emissions on new diesels. When DEF was introduced, it seems like the prices of the 7.3's, 5.9's and the like went up substantially. Even the 6.0 fords got a huge bump. I paid $24k for my 2000 7.3 CCSB in 2001... 2001... Between monetary devaluation, inflation, emissions… the older trucks are just a better buy for some.
 

Dalko43

Explorer
I like Toyota have had a 4runner lousy hated it, replaced it with a 93 Landcruiser loved it hated the 12mpg. Currently have the 06 Sequoia like it. I’m shopping new rides also. Honestly I haven’t considered Toyota an option for the last 8 yr or so. They are sooo dated and behind on mileage and other brands are just as dependable.

If Full sized truck is your focus the Tundra is old as freaking dirt soo tired Toyota is slapping stick on crap on them to try and attract buyers .

The most advanced Full size is the F150 if most advance technology scares you then you go GM you get the most advanced truck minus the turbos. 👍.

But absolutely nothing on Toyotas lots is even remotely interesting especially new. Might as well buy a 8 yr old Tundra you get the same truck for half price.
Dated or not (that point is debatable), Toyota's designs still are considered the benchmark to beat in the midsized SUV and pickup markets. Ford, GM, and FCA had largely quit one, or both, of those markets, and just recently have attempted to make a comeback...most of them declared that the midsized market was "dead" several years back.

So the 4runner is a dated design, but other than the Wrangler (which itself is a very dated and arguably less refined design), what else competes with that Toyota product?

The Tacoma just saw a new generation released. Other than engine options, what does the competition offer over the Tacoma? Despite all the fanfare attributed to the new Ranger, the Tacoma is arguably still the most offroad capable midsized pickup, excluding the Gladiator (which really isn't a true midsized truck if we're going by size and footprint).

Toyota changes its designs very slowly, which is both its greatest strength and greatest weakness. Until the other OEM's put out midsized trucks and SUV's that seriously threaten Toyota's offerings, the company has absolutely no reason to change its approach. I mean of all places, you'd think people on Expedition Portal would appreciate brilliance of simplicity and reliability....but if you think self-parking tech, 15-way adjustable seats, and camera's at every angle are more important to your overland travels, by all means get a F-150 or Silverado.
 

calicamper

Expedition Leader
Same here long time Toyota owner. I haven’t even considered anything new from Toyota in yrs. Heck speaking of lazy design. For kicks I took a 2019 Prius home after dropping my 06 Sequoia off for air bag recall. The plugin Prius wasn’t even fully formatted for the US market!! They left the Electric plug on the Japan/ driver side!! I actually said WTF! Toyota has been massively disappointing for a long time now, but our dealers are so bad the sales staff tell you no negotiation before you even hint at what your shopping for!!
Dated or not (that point is debatable), Toyota's designs still are considered the benchmark to beat in the midsized SUV and pickup markets. Ford, GM, and FCA had largely quit one, or both, of those markets, and just recently have attempted to make a comeback...most of them declared that the midsized market was "dead" several years back.

So the 4runner is a dated design, but other than the Wrangler (which itself is a very dated and arguably less refined design), what else competes with that Toyota product?

The Tacoma just saw a new generation released. Other than engine options, what does the competition offer over the Tacoma? Despite all the fanfare attributed to the new Ranger, the Tacoma is arguably still the most offroad capable midsized pickup, excluding the Gladiator (which really isn't a true midsized truck if we're going by size and footprint).

Toyota changes its designs very slowly, which is both its greatest strength and greatest weakness. Until the other OEM's put out midsized trucks and SUV's that seriously threaten Toyota's offerings, the company has absolutely no reason to change its approach. I mean of all places, you'd think people on Expedition Portal would appreciate brilliance of simplicity and reliability....but if you think self-parking tech, 15-way adjustable seats, and camera's at every angle are more important to your overland travels, by all means get a F-150 or Silverado.
its not even a debate. Toyota is nearly a decade behind in mileage and design. In every segment.

They also have started a trend of buying designs from other auto makers vs actually design their own.
 

Jnich77

Director of Adventure Management Operations
its not even a debate. Toyota is nearly a decade behind in mileage and design. In every segment.

They also have started a trend of buying designs from other auto makers vs actually design their own.
I'll take it a step further and say that there is little to nothing that the Tundra does better than an F150 (or any other full-size truck). I'll even say the same for the Tacoma, it's not exactly a modern design, powerful, or a stellar offering when compared to the Ranger.

To make matters worse, Toyota charges you more for yesterdays truck.
 

Jnich77

Director of Adventure Management Operations
But if you think self-parking tech, 15-way adjustable seats, and camera's at every angle are more important to your overland travels, by all means get a F-150 or Silverado.
Are not most if not all of those options available on a Tundra? In fact, the domestic manufacturers offer a far more stripped down truck that Toyota has in many years.
 

calicamper

Expedition Leader
Are not most if not all of those options available on a Tundra? In fact, the domestic manufacturers offer a far more stripped down truck that Toyota has in many years.
Engine and transmission and payload. Not to mention modern safety features. If your going to pay $1000’s for a vehicle why pay new truck prices for a 8 yr old truck? Buy a used one at a big discount.
 

nickw

Adventurer
Dated or not (that point is debatable), Toyota's designs still are considered the benchmark to beat in the midsized SUV and pickup markets. Ford, GM, and FCA had largely quit one, or both, of those markets, and just recently have attempted to make a comeback...most of them declared that the midsized market was "dead" several years back.

So the 4runner is a dated design, but other than the Wrangler (which itself is a very dated and arguably less refined design), what else competes with that Toyota product?

The Tacoma just saw a new generation released. Other than engine options, what does the competition offer over the Tacoma? Despite all the fanfare attributed to the new Ranger, the Tacoma is arguably still the most offroad capable midsized pickup, excluding the Gladiator (which really isn't a true midsized truck if we're going by size and footprint).

Toyota changes its designs very slowly, which is both its greatest strength and greatest weakness. Until the other OEM's put out midsized trucks and SUV's that seriously threaten Toyota's offerings, the company has absolutely no reason to change its approach. I mean of all places, you'd think people on Expedition Portal would appreciate brilliance of simplicity and reliability....but if you think self-parking tech, 15-way adjustable seats, and camera's at every angle are more important to your overland travels, by all means get a F-150 or Silverado.
Brilliant simplicity, like the current Landcruiser or GX that have every bell and whistle possible?

You can get a F150 with less options than a Tundra...Vinyl floors, vinyl seats and a HD package w/locking diff and 36 gal tank, doesn't get much simpler than that. Can step up to a F250 and get all that + manual Tcase.

Toyota and Jeep are the only two that offer "offroad" SUV's, currently. Once the new Bronco comes out, it will be a whole different ballgame. I'd argue the Jeep is a more refined platform for what it is, a SFA rig w/Removable top.

Toyota has played the business game well, but certainly doesn't mean they engineer a better product for N America.
 

calicamper

Expedition Leader
Brilliant simplicity, like the current Landcruiser or GX that have every bell and whistle possible?

You can get a F150 with less options than a Tundra...Vinyl floors, vinyl seats and a HD package w/locking diff and 36 gal tank, doesn't get much simpler than that. Can step up to a F250 and get all that + manual Tcase.

Toyota and Jeep are the only two that offer "offroad" SUV's, currently. Once the new Bronco comes out, it will be a whole different ballgame. I'd argue the Jeep is a more refined platform for what it is, a SFA rig w/Removable top.

Toyota has played the business game well, but certainly doesn't mean they engineer a better product for N America.
I think Toyota simply hasn’t kept up. Along with others getting better with quality and improved fuel economy. There are better choices out there.
 

Dalko43

Explorer
A Trailhawk Grand Cherokee will give a TRD 4runner a serious run for the money on the trail and is worlds more comfy on the inside.
The Grand Cherokee is a lifted car at this point...I'm sure it rides nice, but it most definitely is nowhere near as robust or capable as even a stock 4runner. I'd sure as hell avoid taking a Grand Cherokee into some of the roads/trails that I've taken my 4runner. A Jeep Wrangler? Sure. But no way I'd take a Grand Cherokee. And let's be honest: did FCA really design the Grand Cherokee with offroad utility in mind?

The Gladiator and Ranger absolutely are direct competitors to the Tacoma and blow it away in almost every category.
I disagree on the Gladiator, but whatever....we have different views on that.


Are not most if not all of those options available on a Tundra? In fact, the domestic manufacturers offer a far more stripped down truck that Toyota has in many years.
Brilliant simplicity, like the current Landcruiser or GX that have every bell and whistle possible?
To some degree, I'm speaking in hyperbole. The LC and newer 4runners do have a fair bit of creature comforts. I guess my point is the underlying designs are first and foremost focused on longevity and utility (on road and off). Toyota sprinkles in tech and some creature comforts as needed (usually when the loyalists start getting ornery). So Toyota's heated seat is susceptible to failure just like with any other vehicle's tech, but the powertrains and chassis are fundamentally simple and basic...which is generally why Toyota SUV's and pickup's do so well on the used market.

This is a world apart from Ford, GM, and FCA who are constantly trying to up the ante on engine and transmission development, constantly adding new tech and using lightweight materials. Some of those features and stats look good on paper...I have no interest in owning them 10 years down the road.


Toyota and Jeep are the only two that offer "offroad" SUV's, currently. Once the new Bronco comes out, it will be a whole different ballgame. I'd argue the Jeep is a more refined platform for what it is, a SFA rig w/Removable top.
Well, the Bronco isn't even out yet and we have little to no metrics to compare the Ranger's popularity against that of the Tacoma or other midsized trucks...I think you're being a bit premature on that prediction. People vote with their wallets...and so far, the Tacoma has a dominant lead with GM's Colorado/Canyon coming in at a distant second.

The Jeep BTW is definitely not refined compared to the other midsized offerings...SFA is great offroad but definitely doesn't ride as well onroad. I understand the utility of a removable top for hardcore offroading...for daily use, they're a PITA with leaks, rattles and less durable weather and noise proofing. The Jeep is first and foremost a weekend toy...all other design considerations, to include day-to-day livability, take a backseat to that singular focus.
 

nickw

Adventurer
The Grand Cherokee is a lifted car at this point...I'm sure it rides nice, but it most definitely is nowhere near as robust or capable as even a stock 4runner. I'd sure as hell avoid taking a Grand Cherokee into some of the roads/trails that I've taken my 4runner. A Jeep Wrangler? Sure. But no way I'd take a Grand Cherokee. And let's be honest: did FCA really design the Grand Cherokee with offroad utility in mind?



I disagree on the Gladiator, but whatever....we have different views on that.






To some degree, I'm speaking in hyperbole. The LC and newer 4runners do have a fair bit of creature comforts. I guess my point is the underlying designs are first and foremost focused on longevity and utility (on road and off). Toyota sprinkles in tech and some creature comforts as needed (usually when the loyalists start getting ornery). So Toyota's heated seat is susceptible to failure just like with any other vehicle's tech, but the powertrains and chassis are fundamentally simple and basic...which is generally why Toyota SUV's and pickup's do so well on the used market.

This is a world apart from Ford, GM, and FCA who are constantly trying to up the ante on engine and transmission development, constantly adding new tech and using lightweight materials. Some of those features and stats look good on paper...I have no interest in owning them 10 years down the road.




Well, the Bronco isn't even out yet and we have little to no metrics to compare the Ranger's popularity against that of the Tacoma or other midsized trucks...I think you're being a bit premature on that prediction. People vote with their wallets...and so far, the Tacoma has a dominant lead with GM's Colorado/Canyon coming in at a distant second.

The Jeep BTW is definitely not refined compared to the other midsized offerings...SFA is great offroad but definitely doesn't ride as well onroad. I understand the utility of a removable top for hardcore offroading...for daily use, they're a PITA with leaks, rattles and less durable weather and noise proofing. The Jeep is first and foremost a weekend toy...all other design considerations, to include day-to-day livability, take a backseat to that singular focus.
Like I said, "for what it is" a Wrangler is as refined as it gets given it's context, it just got a massive update and from all reports, it's a drastic improvement over the previous models while still retaining capability and an old school flair.

I agree with the Grand Cherokee and generally agree that Toyota does offer vehicles with underpinnings of utility....but I also think that died with the last Tacoma, but even with the last one, it was on it's way out. My 2001 (which I loved), was IMO the last of that generation of smoothed over Hiluxes for the NA market, it's been smoothing even more since then, which isn't a bad thing, people want different stuff now than they did 15+ years ago.

Lets be honest, Toyota built it's rep (with this crowd at least - never mind the sedans / performance cars) on Mini-trucks and Land Cruisers. They've been riding that wave for years and every year they get a little bit further from that standard, I think what you are seeing now is a bit of a revolt, Toyota is certainly not designing to a standard they once did. Not to say they are bad trucks, but the Tacoma is now using a sedan sourced V6 and the Tundra is an old platform. For me the Tacoma died when it stopped using the Global engines (2.7 and 4.0) with Manual trans. If I'm going to put up with marginal performance it better be more robust, easier to work on or significantly more reliable....which I don't see.

Toyota sells more trucks due to the fact they have had a better product out longer. Nobody would disagree that the previous generation Ranger and Colorado were not in the same ballpark, but times have changed.

Don't forget, those cruisers have all sorts of nany-aids and fancy suspension....the old GX's were notorious for that crap failing and costing $$.
 

calicamper

Expedition Leader
Like I said, "for what it is" a Wrangler is as refined as it gets given it's context, it just got a massive update and from all reports, it's a drastic improvement over the previous models while still retaining capability and an old school flair.

I agree with the Grand Cherokee and generally agree that Toyota does offer vehicles with underpinnings of utility....but I also think that died with the last Tacoma, but even with the last one, it was on it's way out. My 2001 (which I loved), was IMO the last of that generation of smoothed over Hiluxes for the NA market, it's been smoothing even more since then, which isn't a bad thing, people want different stuff now than they did 15+ years ago.

Lets be honest, Toyota built it's rep (with this crowd at least - never mind the sedans / performance cars) on Mini-trucks and Land Cruisers. They've been riding that wave for years and every year they get a little bit further from that standard, I think what you are seeing now is a bit of a revolt, Toyota is certainly not designing to a standard they once did. Not to say they are bad trucks, but the Tacoma is now using a sedan sourced V6 and the Tundra is an old platform. For me the Tacoma died when it stopped using the Global engines (2.7 and 4.0) with Manual trans. If I'm going to put up with marginal performance it better be more robust, easier to work on or significantly more reliable....which I don't see.

Toyota sells more trucks due to the fact they have had a better product out longer. Nobody would disagree that the previous generation Ranger and Colorado were not in the same ballpark, but times have changed.

Don't forget, those cruisers have all sorts of nany-aids and fancy suspension....the old GX's were notorious for that crap failing and costing $$.
Two neighbors had soccer mom mint v8 4 runners both last two yrs suffered the same odd ball major failure. ABS unit crashed. One neighbor was coming back from Tahoe on highway 50, kids ski gear brake pedal went to the floor coming off a offramp in Sacramento. He ebraked it 190ft long skid took down a road sign avoiding stopped traffic. Toyota dealer wanted $1200 to fix it it failed again on the way home from picking it up after doing a rental car to get the family home.

Second neighbor had the same exact thing happen a yr later on his 4runner in town. He actually hit another neighbors car in town. We all know each other and knew about the first one. His also wasn’t fixed and failed again after over $1000.

One bought a Yukon loves it better mileage than the 4runner, way better family rig safer too.

The other one ended up buying a last Gen Sequoia used. Likes it way more than the 4runner but says its so old school he wouldn’t buy another Toyota.
I have a 06 Sequoia, prior to that a super clean single owner J80 factory leather and tinted LC.
Nothing Toyota has is of any interest to me today and I need to find something new in the next yr or so.
 

Dalko43

Explorer
Like I said, "for what it is" a Wrangler is as refined as it gets given it's context, it just got a massive update and from all reports, it's a drastic improvement over the previous models while still retaining capability and an old school flair.

I agree with the Grand Cherokee and generally agree that Toyota does offer vehicles with underpinnings of utility....but I also think that died with the last Tacoma, but even with the last one, it was on it's way out. My 2001 (which I loved), was IMO the last of that generation of smoothed over Hiluxes for the NA market, it's been smoothing even more since then, which isn't a bad thing, people want different stuff now than they did 15+ years ago.

Lets be honest, Toyota built it's rep (with this crowd at least - never mind the sedans / performance cars) on Mini-trucks and Land Cruisers. They've been riding that wave for years and every year they get a little bit further from that standard, I think what you are seeing now is a bit of a revolt, Toyota is certainly not designing to a standard they once did. Not to say they are bad trucks, but the Tacoma is now using a sedan sourced V6 and the Tundra is an old platform. For me the Tacoma died when it stopped using the Global engines (2.7 and 4.0) with Manual trans. If I'm going to put up with marginal performance it better be more robust, easier to work on or significantly more reliable....which I don't see.

Toyota sells more trucks due to the fact they have had a better product out longer. Nobody would disagree that the previous generation Ranger and Colorado were not in the same ballpark, but times have changed.

Don't forget, those cruisers have all sorts of nany-aids and fancy suspension....the old GX's were notorious for that crap failing and costing $$.
Well I'm certainly willing to admit that Toyota has been resting on its laurels to some degree...I'd like to see updated engines and improvements to some of Toyota's older designs (the Tundra in particular). But I also don't think Toyota's current vehicles are at much of a disadvantage, if at all, when it comes to offering reliability and utilitarian performance. Is the Tundra the most refined and innovative 1/2 on the market? Not by a long shot. But it lasts for a long time and will handle abuse and high work loads very well...that's what most Toyota owners want out of their vehicles.

I'm also no fan of the Tacoma's 3.5l v6...I'm sure it does well from an efficiency standpoint, but the torque delivery is lacking. It is derived from a car design, but then again so are the Colorado's 3.6l v6 and the Ranger's inline 4 ecoboost, neither of which get substantially better mpg's in the real world. I think the Colorado and Ranger have of the advantage of offering much more torquey engine options (GM's 2.8l diesel and Ranger's ecoboost). That advantage aside, the underlying platforms are no better than the Tacoma for offroad work and all-around utility. Arguably, the Tacoma is more offroad focused in its base form, whereas Ford and GM have to significantly modify their designs to provide better performance.

GX and LC's do have fancy bits here and there, but those technologies are usually heavily vetted before being incorporated. LC's KDSS adds complexity, but it's been put through its paces by plenty of owners and has proven to be a fairly robust system.
 

calicamper

Expedition Leader
Well I'm certainly willing to admit that Toyota has been resting on its laurels to some degree...I'd like to see updated engines and improvements to some of Toyota's older designs (the Tundra in particular). But I also don't think Toyota's current vehicles are at much of a disadvantage, if at all, when it comes to offering reliability and utilitarian performance. Is the Tundra the most refined and innovative 1/2 on the market? Not by a long shot. But it lasts for a long time and will handle abuse and high work loads very well...that's what most Toyota owners want out of their vehicles.

I'm also no fan of the Tacoma's 3.5l v6...I'm sure it does well from an efficiency standpoint, but the torque delivery is lacking. It is derived from a car design, but then again so are the Colorado's 3.6l v6 and the Ranger's inline 4 ecoboost, neither of which get substantially better mpg's in the real world. I think the Colorado and Ranger have of the advantage of offering much more torquey engine options (GM's 2.8l diesel and Ranger's ecoboost). That advantage aside, the underlying platforms are no better than the Tacoma for offroad work and all-around utility. Arguably, the Tacoma is more offroad focused in its base form, whereas Ford and GM have to significantly modify their designs to provide better performance.

GX and LC's do have fancy bits here and there, but those technologies are usually heavily vetted before being incorporated. LC's KDSS adds complexity, but it's been put through its paces by plenty of owners and has proven to be a fairly robust system.
Adding tech content is the last effort to make dated platforms sellable. The GX and LC are so horribly bad regarding mileage and range they only sell the gas pigs here in the US. 99.9% of which are used as urban soccer mom rigs. I owned a J80 for 9 yrs trust me range and mileage matters if you really do Explore remote places.
 

Dalko43

Explorer
Adding tech content is the last effort to make dated platforms sellable. The GX and LC are so horribly bad regarding mileage and range they only sell the gas pigs here in the US. 99.9% of which are used as urban soccer mom rigs. I owned a J80 for 9 yrs trust me range and mileage matters if you really do Explore remote places.
The LC and LX might get driven around as urban soccer mom rigs (at least during their first ownership period) but they are sure as hell much more durable and longer lasting than the GM and Ford SUV's which engage in soccer mom duty. That's why Toyota SUV's sell so well on the used market, despite being gas pigs.
 
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