The Rolling Restoration & Customization Of My 88' Range Rover Classic

Seat lowering project

I am also working on a rolling resto and mod project RRC and have considered the seat lowering idea as well. I was thinking about using first gen Disco seats in lieu of the Range Rover ones. Your attack on this is really nice. It looks like it will be a top notch job.

I live in Portland so it would be interesting to take a look some time.

I have also thought about building a water proofed pocket (box) in the angled section behind the foot wells for the rear passengers. I intend on potentially putting my ecu, amp and other electro goodies in the box.

If you're ever in lower S.E. Portland swing by Green Oval Motors .... 926 SE Morrison...



Looking forward to more info and images .... thanks for sharing.
 
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Series1Rangie

Adventurer
That is looking great! Glad you are making progress, even if slowly. I have manual disco seats. lowering those was much easier.

more progress picts. :)

Mike and Myles
 

Snagger

Explorer
Viscous fans do not always "fail safe". I've seen at least three Rover diesel viscous fans that have failed so that the are free spinning and don't pull hardly any air. When this happens you have to drill a screw or something through the hub to jam them and force them to work full time. It can be difficult to tell if this type of failure has happened because the fan appears to be working when you look at it with the engine running but it really is not. A good test if the engine is getting too hot is to pull over and try to stop the fan with a news paper or cardboard while the engine is still running (done very carefully!). If you can stop the fan from spinning the viscous has failed in an unlocked condition, if you can't stop the fan it is working.
If the engine temperature creeps above normal, then shutting the engine down and turning the fan by hand will show if the viscous unit has failed "free" - it can happen but is quite unusual. A cable tie or two will make a semi-permanent fix between the hub and blade disc to keep things cool until a replacement can be made, going back to the "fail safe" mode - the fan will be operable again after a few seconds' job of cable (zip) tie application. The same easy and semi-permanent fix doesn't apply to electric fans - unless it's an electrical connector that has failed, you're in trouble.
 

Snagger

Explorer
DSC05675.jpg

DSC05674.jpg


this is my electric fan conversion it is a Taurus fan dual speed 2500CFM low speed 4500 CFM high speed the key is to make a good shroud around the radiator to vacuum all the air .
The problem with a shroud like that is that it blocks a good deal of the ram airflow through the rad. that is why the genuine articles are bevelled - they still restrict ram airflow, but they allow the ram flow to slip down the surface as it inclines towards the fan from all points and has no internal rim that acts like a barrier to the edge of the fan aperture. A flat shroud like that might act more as a dam then a benefit. It's a very neat job, but a shallow pyramid would be less restrictive. It's an irony that shrouds make the fans more efficient and ensure the whole rad is cooled by the fan, not just the circular foot print of the fan itself, but they make the fan more necessary because they block so much ram air...
 

94Discovery

Adventurer
The problem with a shroud like that is that it blocks a good deal of the ram airflow through the rad. that is why the genuine articles are bevelled - they still restrict ram airflow, but they allow the ram flow to slip down the surface as it inclines towards the fan from all points and has no internal rim that acts like a barrier to the edge of the fan aperture. A flat shroud like that might act more as a dam then a benefit. It's a very neat job, but a shallow pyramid would be less restrictive. It's an irony that shrouds make the fans more efficient and ensure the whole rad is cooled by the fan, not just the circular foot print of the fan itself, but they make the fan more necessary because they block so much ram air...
nice explanation and has all the logic to back it up ,with this type of electric fan i cannot do the pyramid style shroud the electric motor is 2 thick and it barely touch s the water pump my fault was i centered the EF i should ve did to the right or left
 

Snagger

Explorer
I'm sure it'll be fine - the fan might just cut in more often at medium to low road speeds because of the ram restriction, that's all.

If it doesn't work well enough, try removing the shroud and mounting the fixed ring of the fan as close to the rad as possible - that way the fan blade efficiency will be good as the tips will be enclosed by the ring and the ring will prevent air behind the rad recirculating in a toroid without passing through the rad, and you won't have the ram restriction. The down side would be that at very low speed, only the circular area of the rad swept by the fan will be working efficiently, the corners of the rad having little more than convective airflow over them.

Another option may be to fit two or three smaller fans - two smaller fans mounted diagonally so that all of the cooling tubes have airflow over them for some part of their length should be suffienciently effective.
 
Fans

I have had a 14" electric fan with an adjustable switch on it for years. There is no addistional shroud or ducting of any sort.

I keep fresh coolant and water wetter in it. I have never even come close to over heating no matter how loaded my rig is or how hot the weather is.

For what it's worth .... I am sure your fan set up will be fine.... the radiators on RRC's (if in good condition) are plenty robust and do a decent job. IMHO
 

rrclassicbt550

Farmer Jon
I will try to get back to you all, but first I will post the status update on the seats.

I am 95% done on the drivers side and probably 50% done on the rear bucket seat mountings. I will be finishing the drivers side tomorrow and making further progress on the rear seats as well (if I am lucky and my schedule doesn't get in the way AGAIN hopefully I will get them done too). I have welded in all the panels and now I only have the actual seat mounts left to weld in.

The photos I have attached show the inner and outer panels being welded in, as well as the transmission panel being welded in (but not before I zip tied the transmission shifter cable out of the way so I wouldn't melt it). I ran out of daylight before I could grind the welds on the transmission tunnel panel, so at least I know what is first on my to-do list tomorrow. Anyway, here are the pictures...

P.S. I forgot to take pictures of the rear seat mountings progress but at this point your really not missing anything spectacular; nevertheless, I will hopefully remember to take pictures tomorrow and I will post them as soon as I can.

IMG_4857.JPGIMG_4859.JPGIMG_4862.JPGIMG_4866.JPGIMG_4868.JPGIMG_4872.JPGIMG_4875.JPGIMG_4878.JPGIMG_4880.JPGIMG_4886.JPG
 

rrclassicbt550

Farmer Jon
This seat base issue is something that makes me surprised the RRC is/was so successful over there. I'm about 6' tall and have to have my seat all the way back, losing most of the leg room for the rear passengers. Even so, my legs are still a little uncomfortable and my hair often brushes against the head lining, and that's with no sunroof at all (flat head lining, no dropped section). 6' might be just a little taller than average in Europe, but is probably slightly shorter than most in the US. I can imagine a lot of LSE/LWB RRC owners had the seat base redrilled to mount the seat a couple of inches further back.

I hope this mod works well - it does carry the slight risk of leaving your legs too straight to be comfortable, having the seat closer to the floor, and of course the seat needs to go back as well as down if the overall distance between pedals and seat is to be maintained. You will probably need to move the seat aft by double the distance you lower it - you need not only to maintain that diagonal distance but to increase it for your straighter legs.

As far as the cooling fan issue goes, there are pros and cons to each side, many of which you have already read. The electric fan manufacturers always bang on about the engine power issue though, and I reckon it's a complete lie - apart from modern fans having viscous hubs so they free-wheel when not required, the airflow through the fan from the vehicle's forward motion reduced the fan blades' angle of attack to virtually nothing, so the fan has no drag. In fact, if you're going at a fair speed with relatively low rpm (ie driving efficiently), the fan may even get a negative angle of attack and work more like a turbine, being driven by the airflow and reducing the water pump drag on the engine...

Electric fans simply aren't as efficient, let alone powerful, as engine driven because of the energy state transformations that need to take place - engine kinetic energy into the alternator KE, with losses through the drive belts, into electrical, losses through the wiring looms, back into mechanical energy at the fan motor. An engine driven fan doesn't have these state changes with their inherent "leaks" and losses.

The real clincher for me though is reliability - like you said, viscous fans "fail safe", as has currently happened to my 300Tdi RRC. At least i know the engine will not have a problem. My 109 has a 200Tdi and I had to fit an electric fan (new) as the viscous unit didn't align with the rad and had the possibility of hitting the front cross member and brake line attached to it. I always worry about the fan failing, even though it has been fine so far, and despite its 14" diameter (same as rad dimensions), it seems to take a while to bring the temperature down. Ultimately, I reason that car manufacturers only fir electric fans where engine driven fans aren't viable (transverse engines or positioning situations like mine) - manufacturers of prestige cars always use in-line engines and generally use viscous fans where possible, and they do everything they can to get the most performance and minimum fuel consumption.

Snagger ,

I appreciate all your wonderful advice and will definitely be keeping it in mind. I don't really believe the manufacturer propaganda either, but the info on RRC's with mechanical fans has been pretty well explored. I haven't found much info on RRC's with electric fans though, either their aren't many with them or those who have them don't write about it. So I thought I would give it a try since my fan threw a blade through my fan shroud and I had to get a whole new set up either way. Win or lose, at least I will have tried it and maybe help myself and others at the same time. If I "lose", I can always go back to the mechanical fan, but if I "win", well than I am better off.
Like I said though I am a little skeptical so I will carry a mechanical fan (along with many other spare parts) if I am going on long trips or to remote places but for the rest of the time I trust that it will do just fine.

As for the seats, I don't think I am lowering it enough for my legs to be too straight because I am 6'2" and even with the seat (in stock form) all the way back my legs are still very bent. I think the seating position will be more comparable to other suv's or possibly sports cars. The thing I have been worried about is the steering wheel being...even more uncomfortable...but I am switching out the 1988 steering column with a 1995 steering column which is a little longer, a little lower, and tilts.
The tilt function is lackluster to say the least but I have found a way to modify it so that it tilts a little further. The tilt function was only really restricted because that was the first year Rover used airbags in the RRC and they wanted to make sure that it would be aligned properly in a crash. I have lowered my seat though, so modifying it so it safely aligns with the new seating position is high on my list as is ditching the airbag. My RRC wasn't made for an airbag and I don't like the idea of having one in front of me if it isn't hooked up.
Nevertheless, I think with the seat and steering column changes it will still be aligned well, while maintaing safety, comfort, and reliability.

Do they have a pad that fits in place of the airbag over there in the UK?
 

rrclassicbt550

Farmer Jon
Viscous fans do not always "fail safe". I've seen at least three Rover diesel viscous fans that have failed so that the are free spinning and don't pull hardly any air. When this happens you have to drill a screw or something through the hub to jam them and force them to work full time. It can be difficult to tell if this type of failure has happened because the fan appears to be working when you look at it with the engine running but it really is not. A good test if the engine is getting too hot is to pull over and try to stop the fan with a news paper or cardboard while the engine is still running (done very carefully!). If you can stop the fan from spinning the viscous has failed in an unlocked condition, if you can't stop the fan it is working.

Thanks for the tips! I will be sure to remember them! Especially using the screw through the hub! Just in case.
 

rrclassicbt550

Farmer Jon
I am also working on a rolling resto and mod project RRC and have considered the seat lowering idea as well. I was thinking about using first gen Disco seats in lieu of the Range Rover ones. Your attack on this is really nice. It looks like it will be a top notch job.

I live in Portland so it would be interesting to take a look some time.

I have also thought about building a water proofed pocket (box) in the angled section behind the foot wells for the rear passengers. I intend on potentially putting my ecu, amp and other electro goodies in the box.

If you're ever in lower S.E. Portland swing by Green Oval Motors .... 926 SE Morrison...



Looking forward to more info and images .... thanks for sharing.

I am looking into relocating my ECU as well since I am planning on lowering the passenger side seat too. I haven't given it too much thought right now, I guess I will cross that bridge when I get there.

I know where Green Oval Motors is, their great! They are who I go to when my Rover is broken beyond my skill level. I was planning on stopping by there before I head out on my road trip at the end of July. Maybe you can see it then? Do you work there?
 

rrclassicbt550

Farmer Jon
That is looking great! Glad you are making progress, even if slowly. I have manual disco seats. lowering those was much easier.

more progress picts. :)

Mike and Myles

Can you post a picture of these disco seats you are talking about? I don't know too many intimate details about Disco's so I am having a hard time picturing how they would be easier to lower.

Once again, thank you for the compliment! : )
 

rrclassicbt550

Farmer Jon
nice explanation and has all the logic to back it up ,with this type of electric fan i cannot do the pyramid style shroud the electric motor is 2 thick and it barely touch s the water pump my fault was i centered the EF i should ve did to the right or left

I have read about people using Taurus fans in other vehicles and getting good results so I would love to know how it works out for you.
I am having trouble with the dual fans being pretty close to the water pump in mine as well. I need to gain about a half inch, I haven't quite figured out how just yet but I have a few ideas. Just out of curiosity, how are you mounting it to the vehicle?
 

94Discovery

Adventurer
i had to cut the Taurus shroud and make my own ,it is been a year and is working fine last summer i went off roading after i installed it and it was cycling as it should , to control the fan i used a 1992 vw golf temperature switch it comes dual speed and you can installing in place of the range rover fan control switch (it is located on the intake side just remove it and the other one drops direct fit ).in the future i will be installing a hood vent so i can dissipate the heat better out of the engine compartment.
 

Snagger

Explorer
Snagger ,
I don't really believe the manufacturer propaganda either, but the info on RRC's with mechanical fans has been pretty well explored. I haven't found much info on RRC's with electric fans though, either their aren't many with them or those who have them don't write about it. So I thought I would give it a try since my fan threw a blade through my fan shroud and I had to get a whole new set up either way. Win or lose, at least I will have tried it and maybe help myself and others at the same time. If I "lose", I can always go back to the mechanical fan, but if I "win", well than I am better off.
Like I said though I am a little skeptical so I will carry a mechanical fan (along with many other spare parts) if I am going on long trips or to remote places but for the rest of the time I trust that it will do just fine.

As for the seats, I don't think I am lowering it enough for my legs to be too straight because I am 6'2" and even with the seat (in stock form) all the way back my legs are still very bent. I think the seating position will be more comparable to other suv's or possibly sports cars. The thing I have been worried about is the steering wheel being...even more uncomfortable...but I am switching out the 1988 steering column with a 1995 steering column which is a little longer, a little lower, and tilts.
The tilt function is lackluster to say the least but I have found a way to modify it so that it tilts a little further. The tilt function was only really restricted because that was the first year Rover used airbags in the RRC and they wanted to make sure that it would be aligned properly in a crash. I have lowered my seat though, so modifying it so it safely aligns with the new seating position is high on my list as is ditching the airbag. My RRC wasn't made for an airbag and I don't like the idea of having one in front of me if it isn't hooked up.
Nevertheless, I think with the seat and steering column changes it will still be aligned well, while maintaing safety, comfort, and reliability.

Do they have a pad that fits in place of the airbag over there in the UK?
My RRC is a '95, so has the column you're planning to fit. the tilt is pretty limited, but I prefer to have the wheel up as high as possible so that it clears my legs. I don't think there are any alternatives - it shares the wheel with the 300Tdi Discovery I and they all have driver's side airbags too (though they don't have the passenger side airbag - they have a Jesus bar there instead). I really don't see any problem with having the airbag fitted but disconnected - it's an electrical pulse that triggers the explosives, and without the wiring, you can't accidentally fire it.

As for the fan, I'm glad you'll be carrying a mechanical spare on trips just in case the electric one isn't up to the job. To be honest, I doubt you'll have any trouble - I just don't like seeing people pulling out perfectly serviceable viscous fans to fit electric units in the misguided belief that they are going to increase performance or fuel economy. I think the advertising for after market electric fans (like Kenlowe's ads) are so horrifically misleading that I believe them to actually be fraudulent.
 

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