Telescope Users: I Need Your Input Please

[Oyaji_Jon]

My 8th grade student of a son is REALLY into stars and rocks. He loves to get offroad with me, and enjoys hitting the beach at night to watch the waves and gaze into the sky.

My wife isn't so much of an outdoor person, but she also loves going to the beach under a starry sky to enjoy the view. This is something we've done since I was stationed in Hawaii years ago and took advantage of North Shore nearly nightly.

For Christmas this year, I want to get them a telescope so we can expand our family enjoyment and make some memories. To the point: which one should I get? My wish is that I can find something reliable that I won't wish I bought the next model up everytime I use it. I'd like it to have a computer interface that is compatible with a MAC. I don't know if such an animal exists, but I'd like snapshot capability so they can save the view for playing around with in a digital editor. I'd like to keep cost to around $500 but am willing to spend more for the right equipment.

Can someone with experience please chime in and point me in the right direction?

Thanks,
Jon

 

[goodtimes]

If he doesn't see this thread, send a PM to DaktariEd. He is into that sort of thing . . .

 

[109 Pretender]

Ck out a "Sky & Telescope and/or Astronomy mag. at your local bookstore's periodical aisle. Meade and Celestron both make decent introductory GOTO systems although your price ceiling is very limiting. Optical instruments are very expensive and you can spend as little as $500.00 for a 90mm MAK Cassegrain w/GOTO but that's w/o a CCD camera. Expect to pay closer to $1000.00 for a complete setup.

Beware though, this hobby can get very, very expensive if you get into it all the way. Many well-healed amateurs have in excess of 50,000.00 to well over 100,000.00 invested in their telescopes, cameras, s/w and misc goodies.

It's a superb way to get young minds interested in the sciences though. Check out robgendlerastropics dot com to see what is achievable at the top end. This Dr. is doing work that professionals couldn't do as recently as 15 years ago and he has quite a few APOD's to his credit (astromony pic of the day - published by Jet Propulsion Labs).

Great hobby!!

 

[ThomD]

A very good set of binolculars may not be as bling as a telescope, but can be just as effective.

 

[Oyaji_Jon]

Thanks for the replies thus far. I've done a little reading and am using the following two scopes as a sounding board. They are, seemingly, a pretty complete package and allow for my Canon EOS Kiss camera to be mounted to an optical port on the end. The difference between the two is the focal length and diameter. I say the words "focal length" with very little understanding as I've, up until now, admittedly used my camera as a point and shoot tool with a high quality add on lens that I picked up in the boutique the last time I was in Hong Kong.

Here are the two Meade telescopes I'd like opinions on to start:

Meade ETX-125AT

Meade ETX-90AT

Thom, as a sailor by trade, I understand the value in a good set of binos for looking at/for stuff. I really want to encourage the boy to take media of the things he looks at and use technology to create things. He's good at sports and school, and I'd like to tap into his creative side since he seems to have a liking for this stuff.

goodtimes, I will contact him if he doesn't make an appearance here.

Pretender, I'm well aware of the cash outlay that CAN go into this hobby. I just want a good quality starting point that won't break the bank or my heart if his interest doesn't go past a year into it. It would be nice to have a tool that he can hang onto for a while, so quality is important. If my budget needs to flex to attain this, then it will do so accordingly.

Thanks for all the input. I really appreciate it, so please keep it coming!

 

[xtatik]

Thanks for the replies thus far. I've done a little reading and am using the following two scopes as a sounding board. They are, seemingly, a pretty complete package and allow for my Canon EOS Kiss camera to be mounted to an optical port on the end. The difference between the two is the focal length and diameter. I say the words "focal length" with very little understanding as I've, up until now, admittedly used my camera as a point and shoot tool with a high quality add on lens that I picked up in the boutique the last time I was in Hong Kong.

Here are the two Meade telescopes I'd like opinions on to start:

Meade ETX-125AT

Meade ETX-90AT

Thom, as a sailor by trade, I understand the value in a good set of binos for looking at/for stuff. I really want to encourage the boy to take media of the things he looks at and use technology to create things. He's good at sports and school, and I'd like to tap into his creative side since he seems to have a liking for this stuff.

goodtimes, I will contact him if he doesn't make an appearance here.

Pretender, I'm well aware of the cash outlay that CAN go into this hobby. I just want a good quality starting point that won't break the bank or my heart if his interest doesn't go past a year into it. It would be nice to have a tool that he can hang onto for a while, so quality is important. If my budget needs to flex to attain this, then it will do so accordingly.

Thanks for all the input. I really appreciate it, so please keep it coming!

The jump from visual to photo astronomy is huge. There are some inexpensive CCD cameras and videocams available now, that use a "track and stack" method of combining luminance rather than a long single image exposure, but they wouldn't work too well on the ETX scopes. The ETX scopes have heavily folded optics and therefore are of very long focal length. Along with the small aperture, your images (visual or photo) will not be very bright. They make very good planetary scopes (bright opjects), but are not that great at viewing the "faint fuzzy" deep sky objects like clusters, nebulae and galaxies. Longer focal lengths require longer image burn in time. Meaning the sensor (CCD or CMOS) will need longer in order to gather enough light to create an image. This is why you'll here astroimagers referring to scopes as "slow" or "fast. A scope of of f6 and higher would be considered a "slow" or long focal path scope. Scopes of f5 and shorter focal path are usually referred to as "fast". Regardless, all imaging scopes will require a very sturdy mount that tracks very precisely. This type of mount (mount only, no scope) will start in the $3000 dollar range minimum. Losmandy and Takahashi have a couple in this lower range. From there they can run upwards to hundreds of thousands of dollars. For imaging, among experts, the mount is sometimes considered more important than the OTA (scope, optical tube assemply).
My suggestion at first, is to buy a scope with a minimum 8" aperture and enjoy visual astronomy for a while. Dobsonian Reflectors are cheapest in this range and can be had with different digital setting circle programs that are "push to" rather than "go-to". Most of "go-to" scopes offered by the major makers are too small in aperture or worse are under-mounted for the aperture in the lower price brackets. Being smaller in aperture they won't reveal all the really cool stuff and the details in each. I think you'd be surprised how easy and how much fun it is to both find and view objects with a "light bucket" Dobsonian. If this holds the kids fascination (or yours), then you can think about delving into imaging. Some great starter scopes can be had at Orion Telescopes http://www.telescope.com/control/pr...lers/~pcategory=bestsellers/~product_id=27183

Meade is getting pretty decent reviews on its newer Lightbridge truss frame models. They can be busted down into a more compact package for trips to the desert, but, they don't have "push to" currently. For the Lightbridge, JMI is making a retro-fit "track and train" drive system that will track objects, but it won't help you find them.
http://www.optcorp.com/product.aspx?pid=1-599-63-67-7590

http://www.jimsmobile.com/buy_acc_altaz.htm#Meade

Good luck..

 

[bajasurf]

Cloudy Nights

Link to a site with forums to answer all your questions. Registration is required.

http://www.cloudynights.com/index.php

 

[xtatik]

Link to a site with forums to answer all your questions. Registration is required.

http://www.cloudynights.com/index.php

Great site, great reviews.

 

[Oyaji_Jon]

That is a good site, and I appreciate you posting it. Looking through the beginner's guide, I think I'm going to start looking at the larger aperture M-C kits. I'll have to bump up my budget significantly, but one thing the site said rang home with me. If I go cheap to begin with, I'll likely have spent money on an expensive "toy" that ends up in the closet. I think we'll visit the Orion store in Cupertino this weekend to see what's what. An "all-around" telescope that doesn't necessarily excel in one area may be right for us to begin with. I guess it's kind of like my FJ60! LOL

Those Dob... telescopes are cool, but they are far from compact. I didn't think about size when I posted my original criteria, and I do appreciate the recommendation.

I'll keep reading and appreciate anymore input that you all may have.

 

[goodtimes]

Something else to consider:

Look up the local astronomy club. Ask them when/where their 'meets' are, and see if you can join them. Just explain what you are doing (seeing if your son has enough interest to justify spending $$$ on it). I'm sure they will be more than happy to help you out (and possibly introduce your son to similar aged kids with similar interests).

 

[ThomD]

Something else to consider:

Look up the local astronomy club. Ask them when/where their 'meets' are, and see if you can join them. Just explain what you are doing (seeing if your son has enough interest to justify spending $$$ on it). I'm sure they will be more than happy to help you out (and possibly introduce your son to similar aged kids with similar interests).

Excellent point. It is a bit of a drive for you, but check out the group that does star parties on Mount Hamilton, outside San Jose. One thing to worry about is that you might find that you really, really like somebody's $$$ setup.

 

[xtatik]

That is a good site, and I appreciate you posting it. Looking through the beginner's guide, I think I'm going to start looking at the larger aperture M-C kits. I'll have to bump up my budget significantly, but one thing the site said rang home with me. If I go cheap to begin with, I'll likely have spent money on an expensive "toy" that ends up in the closet. I think we'll visit the Orion store in Cupertino this weekend to see what's what. An "all-around" telescope that doesn't necessarily excel in one area may be right for us to begin with. I guess it's kind of like my FJ60! LOL

Those Dob... telescopes are cool, but they are far from compact. I didn't think about size when I posted my original criteria, and I do appreciate the recommendation.

I'll keep reading and appreciate anymore input that you all may have.

As for the cheap thing, be careful. You can also buy a very expensive scope that won't serve many purposes. A Mak-Cass will make a great planetary scope. In other words, its long focal path will allow high magnification of "bright objects" but won't work well at all at gathering light for viewing globular clusters, nebulae and galaxies. You'll get bored quickly viewing local stuff like the Moon and planets. You might consider a compromise in size by looking at Schmidt-Cassegrains. A minimum of 8" aperture again is the most recommended by most experienced amateur astronomers for general use/viewing. I hate to say it but that minimum size and light gathering ability REALLY makes a huge difference in opening up more objects for viewing
.
The earlier suggestion to visit a club is a great idea. Better yet, check their website calendars for "Star Parties". If you visit one of these, you'll get the opportunity to view through many different types of scopes. When doing so, pay attention to what types of objects are being viewed through different scopes....and keep in mind the difference between bright "planetary" objects and fainter "deep sky" objects. A deep sky scope can do a decent job at both, a long focal length planetary scope can't.

 

[Oyaji_Jon]

I appreciate what you are saying. When I mentioned looking at Mak-Cas scopes I was thinking the Orion Sky View Pro 150 or 180. They are around $1500 and tout themselves as being ok for viewing "well defined" deep sky objects. At that price, they come with the computer for tracking. The 150 has a shorter focal length than the 180, so what is your view on the trade-off between large aperture/long focal length or smaller aperture/short focal length? Of course, I'm remembering your advice to get something with and 8" or larger aperture, and the 180 is only 7.1".

Edit: here I go blowing my budget...

 

[xtatik]

I The 150 has a shorter focal length than the 180, so what is your view on the trade-off between large aperture/long focal length or smaller aperture/short focal length? Of course, I'm remembering your advice to get something with and 8" or larger aperture, and the 180 is only 7.1".

Edit: here I go blowing my budget...

The thing to keep in mind is the relationship netween aperture and focal length when viewing low light objects. Also keep in mind a significant amount of gathered light is lost in the path. A significant amount of ambient light is also introduced into the path which poorly effects contrast. The longer the path the worse these effects can be. The Maksutov has a very long and heavily folded path for a given aperture. It also has a large center obstruction in the aperture for the secondary mirror.
I guess what I'm trying to convey is that an MC doesn't make a very good general purpose first scope. The makers sell tons of these based on size (small) and that seems to be the allure of these scopes to the uninitiated.
The two scopes you've mentioned are encroaching the price range where some much more viable products could be had. For starters, I would look at the Meade or Celestron Schmidt-Cassegrains in 8 inch models. At roughly f10 they are longer/slower scopes, but their ratios are better and you'll have brighter viewing with them. They will resolve and focus on dimmer objects much better than a Mak and will still be somewhat compact.
Another thing to keep in mind. Larger apertures will work much better from light-polluted home locations as well. If you and your son would like to use a scope at home....the bigger the aperture the better.
Some scopes I would consider for first-timers are: the Meade LXD75 w/ 8" Schmidt. It comes on an equatorial mount which will take some getting used to. They are my favorite type of mount, but I wouldn't consider anything less than the Losmandy G-11 for load capacity. Celestron makes an 8" S-C on an alt-az mount with go-to and is shown on the Orion site as well. These are both under the price you're considering for a Mak.
If it were my money and I was looking for a starter scope, I'd get one of the larger (12") Dobsonian Reflectors Intelliscopes or with Go-To that are shown on Orions site. For visual purposes a Dob reflector in the 8-12" will blow away the views through both a Mak or Schmidt of equal size.
Orions "Intelliscope" branding is just their version of a digital setting circle model. DSC's are used by simply selecting an object from the database in the handheld computer. Once this is done the computer shows your current position in the sky and you push the scope until zeroed on each axis. Then you look through the finder and voila! You're now on the newly selected object. You may need to center the object slightly through the finder, but they are usually fairly accurate, and each time you reset on an object the tighter and more accurate the alignment gets throughout the night.
Both "go-to" and DSC's will require an initial alignment before the viewing session begins. Usually requiring you enter the date and time (UTC) and then to align the scope on Polaris (The North Star) and then one or to easily recognizable stars on either side of the sky's meridian. Once this is done the scope knows its place on Earth and how it will relate to the current sky.

 

[Oyaji_Jon]

Thanks Randy. I was looking at C-S scopes exclusively today, and I found the Celestron one with the 8" aperture and f/10 lentgh. I was going to ask about that specific one, so thanks for commenting on it. Unfortunately, the Dobsonian scopes are out of the running based on their physical size. Thanks again for all the info!