SPOT Announces New Device: spotX (two-way with a keyboard!)

sonoronos

Usually broken down on the side of the road
FWIW, the Spot Gen3 has a minimum 150 second time between transmissions. I always sort of assumed that the SOS was transmitted in the same 2-bit message ID that carried the other canned messages, although I guess there could be some kind of QOS differentiation for SOS (which seemed unlikely to me, but anything's possible.)
 
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DaveInDenver

Middle Income Semi-Redneck
I know that 150 second interval was what they used based on 5 minute beacon interval in the FCC SAR exposure calculation, but is that typical? I figured that in normal use it would be sleeping more since it shouldn't take that long for GPS fix (they assumed from 15 seconds up to 4 minutes) and of course the actual beacon interval (I personally use 10 minutes).

Globalstar Simplex Data Service supports 9-byte packets and from what I've read the Spot uses two packets in it's bursts. It must span 2 packets because 26-bits are the ESN, 48-bit are GPS location, there's fields for battery status, GPS confidence, 2-bits for message type (location, check-in, SOV and SOS, so that makes sense). Everything won't fit in a single 9-byte packet since 10-bits are given as preamble, 24-bit are CRC and at least 12-bits of message/packet/sequence ordering.

The data rate is 100 bps, e.g. that's how they arrive at 1.44 sec to transmit a message. The sleep-wake logic I have no clue. In the FCC paperwork they say it wakes, gets a GPS fix, transmits a packet, delays 6 seconds, transmits again and goes back to sleep. So if you assume a max of 240 seconds for GPS fix that doesn't explain the 150 minimum interval. The actual message is 8.88 seconds plus 1 second of TCXO stabilization prior to transmitting.

So perhaps the max time allowed to GPS isn't 4 minutes and the rate at which the device transmits messages is the same regardless of the tracking interval. In fact I would guess they actually do transmit at some interval shorter than your tracking interval and just update the website on 10 minute intervals. But you have to update the device firmware via USB when changing tracking intervals so perhaps it's flashing new timing then?

I doubt that's true of SOS and can't tell just from the LED status (I've never activated SOS either). I have to think the SOS would just repeat on some interval until it's turned off or the battery dies. But the message format is probably the same. Normally I'd have to really study it but it seems at my casual observation to change between the GPS and transmitting LEDs at some interval other than 10 minutes as well.
 
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DaveInDenver

Middle Income Semi-Redneck
Thinking about this more, it would have to only transmit within a window of your current location otherwise the position error could be large. So the transmit interval must be the same as your selected update rate. Your last position may be several minutes old but no more than the previous interval.

I think they have a 2.5 minute beacon option now if you bump up your account subscription, so that is obviously where the 150 second interval comes from. Duh.

BTW, back up data:
https://fccid.io/L2V-PT3/RF-Exposure-Info/RF-Exposure-Rev-7-2084520
 

sonoronos

Usually broken down on the side of the road
sorry Dave - I think the 150 second number is minimum, not typical. I don't know for sure, but in my foggy head, I deduced the actual beacon rate from the battery life - I've always felt like the output power (200-250-ish mW on a clear day with good sat vis?) was a big part of the battery usage (in addition the microprocessor and GPS hardware.) and the battery life does seem to go down proportionately with tracking rate.

I guess the other half of the equation is how often does a transmitted beacon get "missed" by the sat or receiver...who knows :)
 

DaveInDenver

Middle Income Semi-Redneck
My experience is at least ~95% probability of a beacon being seen when you orient the Spot correctly, flat face straight up. I wear mine at the top of my backpack strap so it's oriented that way and I might miss 1 or 2 positions over the course of 8 hours. The miss rate goes up in trees, but being a very low power transmitter (it's 225 mW) that's not hard to understand. Just saying that perhaps out in Utah with no trees the number of failed packets is very low even knowing how unlikely the whole system should work at all. I have to admit you RF guys (looking at you @sonoronos) are magicians.

https://fccid.io/L2V-PT3/Test-Report/FCC-Part-25-Report-2056176
 

carbon60

Explorer
I really thought Globalstar was a LEO constellation, but the coverage map makes it look a lot more like a fixed geosynchronous fleet with beams. What am I missing?
 

sonoronos

Usually broken down on the side of the road
AFAIK LEO only. I think the coverage map is kind of simplified for marketing purposes. There are gaps in the map where their sats definitely fly over and should definitely have service....not sure why they're drawn that way..
 

DaveInDenver

Middle Income Semi-Redneck
I really thought Globalstar was a LEO constellation, but the coverage map makes it look a lot more like a fixed geosynchronous fleet with beams. What am I missing?
It's LEO. The coverage map isn't restricted upon your device seeing satellites. You could see them anywhere on the planet.

A caveat is that Globalstar's orbits intentionally biases below the 70th parallel. By ignoring the poles they increase the coverage inside of the parallels. It's about most efficiently covering the planet with a finite number of satellites that have a specific transit. There's just not as many users who might benefit so it's a cost-benefit business decision when they designed the system. They get better coverage over the rest of the planet with 48 satellites instead of 66 that Iridium uses.

The reason for the terrestial bias is Globalstar is a bent pipe, which means your device is relayed by the satellite directly to a ground station. Those ground stations are in fixed locations near the ocean but always on land. If you were to stand at one of their ground stations and measure 876 miles above the horizon, that is the limit to their view of that satellite. If you draw a line returning to the Earth on the other side of the link but continuing in that same horizontal line that's the maximum distance from any point on land they can support a communication path.

Now the Iridium satellites talk to each other and can bounce your link around in space until it hits a satellite with a view of a ground station. Which is why they aren't limited to a distance from land. Their constellation can adjust for the satellite you're seeing on a ship or land to find a path back to a ground station.

The problem is all that bouncing means not only do all the satellites need to see each other but they also need to find ones that see a ground station and another that sees you, too. Remember even if the station and you are both fixed all the satellites are moving so they hand off the uplink and downlink as they transit, Iridium's approach requires each satellite to additionally hand off the space link, too. All of this assumes a lot more things have to work right and many more hand-offs, which doesn't always happen so they'll get somewhat more dropped calls, harder to initiate a call, less bandwidth.

Each approach has benefit and issues, it's not one is always better than the other. Globalstar just relies more heavily on a ground network with fewer satellites and less complexity in space than Iridium. OTOH, it's a lot easier to fix stuff on the ground if it hiccups. To get full coverage on the ocean Iridium had to do it that way.
 
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sonoronos

Usually broken down on the side of the road
dave, your understanding of globalsat's architecture is way beyond mine, really appreciate the info
 

jacobconroy

Hillbilly of Leisure
I'm very interested to see how this works out. I like my Delorme, but it needs a qwerty keyboard to be perfect. I have a feeling that Garmin will never head in that direction. Replaceable batteries would be good as well.

Does anyone know if there will be a "minimum" monthly plan like the Delorme? I like to pay the base amount. When I actually use the Delorme they simply charge me more, and I'm fine with that.
 

CMARJEEP

Observer
We went with the InReach for the two way, so its great to have competition. The Keyboard is no big deal if tou can pair with another device that has a larger keyboard.
Space X will put both of these systems out of business in about 10 years with true global internet coverage.

Global internet coverage will ruin the outdoors.
 

DaveInDenver

Middle Income Semi-Redneck
Does anyone know if there will be a "minimum" monthly plan like the Delorme? I like to pay the base amount. When I actually use the Delorme they simply charge me more, and I'm fine with that.
It appears Spot has annual and monthly plans now. Looks like the minimum option is $250 purchase, a $25 activation and a $15 one-month subscription. BTW, the annual option is 12 installments and there's no price advantage to paying the full amount upfront or breaking it down, although if you pay for the full year in one payment you get all the message instantly (e.g. 240 messages rather than 20 per month).

https://www.findmespot.com/spotx/lander.php#service_pricing
 

GB_Willys_2014

Well-known member
I'm very interested to see how this works out. I like my Delorme, but it needs a qwerty keyboard to be perfect. I have a feeling that Garmin will never head in that direction. Replaceable batteries would be good as well.

Does anyone know if there will be a "minimum" monthly plan like the Delorme? I like to pay the base amount. When I actually use the Delorme they simply charge me more, and I'm fine with that.


Agree that the InReach would be better with a keyboard.

I have used my InReach on multiple occasions as a 2way text device on many occasions, and actually called an SOS last March (a story in itself, which I will gladly share if anyone is interested).

I don't like the Bluetooth phone pairing in the field, so instead have had to struggle with the small virtual keyboard navigation. It basically sucks, and the "smart word" feature doesn't work well.

I for one would welcome an InReach "SatBerry" keyboard if Garmin were to offer it.
 

chimingin

New member
I purchased the SpotX tracker recently for my daughters to use while hiking the Pacific Crest Trail. They are on the trail right now and the tracker is set to send a position once an hour. We are lucky if there is 1 or 2 tracking points a day. Texting seems to work, although it had a few problems there. Overall I would say as a tracker, it fails. For texts from the back country it seems to be ok. If needed, I hope the SOS button is going to work. On the other hand I had the Spot gen3 last year. It tracked ok on a 50 mile Mt Whitney hike. It even tracked on a flight in the Cessna from CA to ID. Very disappointed in the SpotX, will probably return it. The required year long subscription will be a loss.
 

DaveInDenver

Middle Income Semi-Redneck
You aren't the first person to mention the SpotX tracking is falling short. I have a Gen 3 tracker and I've been satisfied in the reliability of beacons and so I'm surprised that Globalstar would do so poorly in implementing what is probably the same or similar components. I guess they wanted to make the device less reliant on antenna position and in the process are left with an equally poor performance in all orientations.
 

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