Snow Wheeling - Let's talk pressures & Terrain Response/DSC

Jwestpro

Explorer
LOL I guess the experts in the field out there are also full of nonsense then.
Did you ask the "engineers" about actual 4x4 trails or just gravel roads because the tires they build are not just for looks. I was never talking to you about the forest roads where a stock subaru can also go.

I do not understand why this is so difficult for you.

You ask something like "what is best for.." you get an answer then claim condescension and "nah". Why do you ask anyone? Just do your thing and post what you did because you don't actually want to learn, you want to do your own thing. All I ever told you about the silly tire thing was the E's were better, which is 100% true. I didn't say you'll die out there. I said I'd rather not use something that is simply, maybe, sufficient when I can easily make sure it's above and beyond the duty.

You show us where an engineer will tell you "yah, sure, the SL is just fine for an off camber rocky full articulation 2 wheel teetering trail, we only make the C D E for the hell of it" , and I'll buy you a case of your favorite beverage.

Now you want to run 10 psi in snow, on an lr3, for some reason, and I'm the jerk? LOL
 

Jwestpro

Explorer
As long as your not turning sharp at hi speed or driving on tight technical trails and have tires with a decently strong sidewall going down to 10 is very doable in any vehicle I've ever owned. 15 seems to be the sweet spot for floating on snow and keeping some hight with the tires , but just for saftey sake I would practice putting a tire back on the bead just in case you do pull it off on the trail .
I think it also depends on the vehicle weight, tire sidewall size, and even the wheel being used. Some wheels have better bead retention. Lighter weight vehicles will not squash the tire as much. My lr3 at 7500 lbs with nothing on the roof is going to squash the tire a lot more than a stock 4runner for example. The photo you have I can't tell what wheel size you have but let's say a 16" with 33" tire has a lot more to work with than a heavier lr3 on 18's with a 31" tire.

Hence 20 as the lowest I'd probably use on a 265/65x18. On my 34" tires I'd definitely try maybe 15 but like you said, side slope or sudden slide sideways could burp it at least.
 

Superduty

Adventurer
As long as your not turning sharp at hi speed or driving on tight technical trails and have tires with a decently strong sidewall going down to 10 is very doable in any vehicle I've ever owned. 15 seems to be the sweet spot for floating on snow and keeping some hight with the tires , but just for saftey sake I would practice putting a tire back on the bead just in case you do pull it off on the trail . View attachment 507409


AWESOME pic.
 

colb45

Observer
Running with an RTT and lots of gear. Normal gravel I run around 25 front and rear (max speeds i am doing is 40-50km, if that usually just cruising along enjoying the scenery), the load out of gear I run defeats the whole race car speed situation. Snow depends on the situation, depth and what not but going to have to agree I wouldnt go below 20psi due to the weight of these rigs.

Last time i was down at 20psi i was breaking ground pushing snow over the hood of my truck, no chains... was a fun time but had to keep that forward momentum going and having the wider contact patch helped.

For snow, turn the traction control off. The traction aids are nice but if you keep it consistent throttle you will be fine.

my .02cents
 

Ray_G

Explorer
Odd. When I turn off my DSC (& HDC) the TR works fine but doesn't seem to chew the brakes much at all. Mind you I have never played in anything more than moderate snow so I can't really make a judgment on that surface.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 

Jwestpro

Explorer
I had time for some calculations rather than gut feeling and came up with low psi of 20 for my vehicle and on my tires but 12 psi for a stock LR3 on the SL which is actually basically also a C load range.
That tire is also better suited than I had thought from a load range but I do prefer the added security of 10 ply vs 6. The E also has 2/32 more depth for what it’s worth in some circumstances.

So, if 20 on mine is really the same as 12 on yours, then it should be just fine. I’d like to see a side by side sometime w someone so we could compare the actual deformation amount.

My rough idea of 51 psi also ends up being the exact calculated spec for my highway setting which just shows that I’m much more dialed in to my vehicle but quite a bit off for stock vehicles on different spec tires.
 

Metcalf

Expedition Leader
It depends very much on snow conditions, and there are a LOT of different conditions.



The difference in my old flat fender between 2 and 1psi can be AMAZING in the right conditions. It can be the difference between using the winch all day and driving all day long and not getting your feet wet.

There is something interesting that happens with tire pressure as you go lower and lower. I think there is a fairly direct correlation between tire pressure and ground pressure. This means at lower pressures, smaller changes make bigger differences.

If you don't want beadlocks, please look into wrapping the safety beads in 2-3 wraps of gorilla brand tape. The tape-lock idea works best if the tape ends about 50% over the flat section outboard of the safety bead hump/ridge. This will let most rims/tires function well on normal 4-5K lb vehicles down into the LOW single digits....3-5psi usually.
 

Smileyshaun

Observer
this is a great visual to u understand why the lower the psi the better you will handle snow, you have so much more tire on the ground to find that tiny bit more of traction , even if it's 1 more lug to grab a tiny bit more snow to pull you forward and not start to dig .

And in the snow pic that was a sequoia on stock size tires . It was that perfect fluffy fresh snow that you could just bomb through. This was on the same trip but I was stuck in this parking lot for a bit and had to dig some tracks to get enough momentum to get out . type of snow has a huge difference .
507564
507562
507563
 

Blaise

Well-known member
I had time for some calculations rather than gut feeling and came up with low psi of 20 for my vehicle and on my tires but 12 psi for a stock LR3 on the SL which is actually basically also a C load range.
That tire is also better suited than I had thought from a load range but I do prefer the added security of 10 ply vs 6. The E also has 2/32 more depth for what it’s worth in some circumstances.

So, if 20 on mine is really the same as 12 on yours, then it should be just fine. I’d like to see a side by side sometime w someone so we could compare the actual deformation amount.

My rough idea of 51 psi also ends up being the exact calculated spec for my highway setting which just shows that I’m much more dialed in to my vehicle but quite a bit off for stock vehicles on different spec tires.
You are aware that your tires aren't 6 or 10 ply right? That's an equivalent rating, not an actual ply count. Again, I ask that you calm down with the condescending comments. The equivalent ply count is only to help bring the newer tires in line with the older ratings. From an actuall Goodyear Truck tire Engineer:

The 'bro-science' is what most of my customers refer to as 'Bubba training'. Neither is a very polite reference, but fairly accurate. First of all, Pay no attention to the ply rating, (6, 8, 10), these are the equivalent number of COTTON PLIES it would take to equal the strength of the POLYESTER plies in Modern Radials. C Load Range tires are designed to be inflated to 50 PSI, D Load range to 65 PSI, and E Range to 80 PSI, (It gets more confusing because some large flotation sizes Load Range E = 65 PSI, but this is the exception). The load rating of a tire is basically the a factor of the Volume of air it will contain, and the pressure it is maintained at. As an example, you may see very little difference in the ply strength of a Load Range D and E tire, but the E rated tire may have additional bead wire to increase it's static burst pressure, and reduce bead fatigue.

LOL I guess the experts in the field out there are also full of nonsense then.
Did you ask the "engineers" about actual 4x4 trails or just gravel roads because the tires they build are not just for looks. I was never talking to you about the forest roads where a stock subaru can also go.
Again, these are the guys who are designing these tires. I'm not sure why you insist on calling them "engineers" and pretending that the guys who design this stuff are clueless. But I'm happy to share additional information so we can try to all learn.


There is very little correlation between 'ply strength', which is basically a tensile test, and 'puncture resistance'. Get any tire wet and the puncture resistance goes down drastically (75%?). Most off-road 'punctures' are actually snags. Some of our tires ( MT/R with Kevlar) due have an extra layer of puncture resistance, but that interferes with the ability for the tire to 'squat' for off-road traction.


I mean this in the most sincere way Mr. West: Let's be a bit more friendly rather than stating things as absolutes. I have plenty to learn, as do you.
 

Jwestpro

Explorer
You are aware that your tires aren't 6 or 10 ply right? That's an equivalent rating, not an actual ply count. Again, I ask that you calm down with the condescending comments.
Nothing I said in that last post was condescending. Not sure why you're feeling that way but it sounds like you are predisposed to read a tone that was not implied or intended. If you were in a different state of mind, you might re-read that post about low psi and see that I basically agreed with you about a lower psi being perfectly fine as well as the tire you chose being much better than I initially thought due to my own confusion on it as well as my reference point being my vehicle vs a stock one.

Yes, I am aware of ply being an equivalent rating. Am I supposed to assume you asked about a subtle detail as some sort of condescending jab? Well, I don't really care either way.

You basically invited this on yourself with the initial unnecessary inclusion of calling me out for suggesting E tires as well as unfairly exaggerating what I had said to sound like some sort of idiotic concerns about use on gravel.

If your intention was to simply share new info you've learned in the process, you should have just done that and we all would've enjoyed it.

Seeing as you have a direct line to an engineer, maybe ask them again, what tire they would choose for an 8000 lb vehicle that will likely see some time on literally 2 diagonal wheels and extended times with 70% of the weight side/lope loaded onto two tires. Like I said before, when the only choice is an E vs light load, it seems to me the E is better even if it's a lot more than needed when the light load is barely to spec if at all. Lastly, yo reiterate, I was confused about the tire you had selected in the first place, months ago, and didn't realize it was essentially a C load rating. Make sense, or do you still feel offended?
 

Jwestpro

Explorer
My tire choice is based on a wider range of use than your stated purposes and therefor my most likely recommendation is going to come from a that perspective.
I tow a 7500 lb tandem trailer sometimes and also make long interstate trips where I want to make time by traveling as fast as possibly without going to jail.
Using 50-52 psi for its weight is entirely appropriate and therefor makes an E tire vs C a better overall choice even if it is overkill.

Additionally, it is often the case that in a given size and/or tire model, the only choices are E or not even up the level you chose. Thus the default will be the E if a person wants a certain tire or size unavailable in the ideal rating level.

For my stated uses I would not chose something like an SL that will end up being used at or above it’s maximum ratings. There is nothing wrong with choosing a little more leeway to remove any concerns of durability for the others uses.

Lastly, who doesn’t appreciate the slightly deeper tread depth for basically no drawbacks.

My whole position from the beginning was that an E simply covers every use case without being limited to a size, brand, model, or vehicle set up and uses.

I guess you got really hung up on my way of taking as sounding like I was telling you what to do, but when asked about such things and not knowing someone’s details, I’m going to err on the side of overkill just to be safe.
 

mpinco

Expedition Leader
My $0.02 worth .......... 2011 LR4 HD with a use profile of urban commuter, Colorado trail work, towing a 5000# travel trailer over mountain passes, back country trails that allow me to get my 19' camper to dry camping locations in the national forest or wherever I am.

On initial acquisition of LR4 with stock 20" wheels and tires I could 'feel' the rear end move back and forth as sidewalls flexed. Was not going to take this tire and wheel combination anywhere other than your tame forest service road.

Upgrade - LR3 18" wheels, Motorsport 25mm spacers, General Grabber AT2 LT285/60-18 load range E tires. Off camber and towing sidewall flex gone. Eighteen inch wheels for trail work. Colorado trail work where others said "nice truck, well equipped for real trails", "I would't bring my LR4 up here", 3 wheelin tire load distribution, ............ no flats or tire failures. Snow performance is adequate. I wouldn't go bashing show drifts but the tires do float well. The LR4 is a HEAVY truck so there is that. In summary for a LR4 seeing multiple use cases (everyday, tow trailer to camp site, serious trail work to high country lakes) I think a load range E tires on 17/18" wheels is a minimum.
 
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