Sears Diehard Platinum 31M issues

gravedgr

SE Expedition Society
I swapped out the stock battery for a 31M AGM battery last year and although it has been great up to this point, for a few months now I'm having trouble with it losing voltage pretty quickly.

Granted, I don't drive my truck much but even after an hour trip somewhere it is down within 1-2 days after.

I took some pics this morning before and after a 10-15 minute round trip to drop the kids at school.

8D7AC59F-CD9D-458C-BD1F-5631A2D9B991_zpszbjvhlbj.jpg

0C0663AB-CE6E-48D4-A0BE-DD2CCD067021_zpsivvsp2bx.jpg


As you can see from the monitor, it looks to be fully charged again, but here it was 5 hours later.

C5D29634-ED79-4FBF-9830-D7717F8AC787_zps1inoqcj7.jpg


Ideas?
 

DaJudge

Explorer
Something is drawing it down. What kind of accessories are running? Stereo, lights, etc. I had an amp go bad once, it never shut off.
 

gravedgr

SE Expedition Society
Something is drawing it down. What kind of accessories are running? Stereo, lights, etc. I had an amp go bad once, it never shut off.
I have a set of bed lights (switch activated), a winch, an under-hood light (activated by opening the hood) and a 12v socket run to the bed of the truck that has nothing plugged into it.
 

Herbie

Rendezvous Conspirator
I have a set of bed lights (switch activated), a winch, an under-hood light (activated by opening the hood) and a 12v socket run to the bed of the truck that has nothing plugged into it.

Even the "normal" load of factory stereo and ECU is a measurable "dark" current draw, don't discount these. What charger are you using when the truck's not being driven? None? 1-hour of driving is nowhere near enough to put a full charge into this battery, especially if it sits a lot.

Do some searching in this forum on Odyssey batteries (the manufacturer of your DH Platinum) - they need very high charge current. Your alternator is almost certainly not putting out high enough current, for long enough. You'll need a good high-current charger to get it up to full voltage, and then a good multistage maintainer should be able to keep it there against the dark current load.
 

jeep-N-montero

Expedition Leader
Even the "normal" load of factory stereo and ECU is a measurable "dark" current draw, don't discount these. What charger are you using when the truck's not being driven? None? 1-hour of driving is nowhere near enough to put a full charge into this battery, especially if it sits a lot.

Do some searching in this forum on Odyssey batteries (the manufacturer of your DH Platinum) - they need very high charge current. Your alternator is almost certainly not putting out high enough current, for long enough. You'll need a good high-current charger to get it up to full voltage, and then a good multistage maintainer should be able to keep it there against the dark current load.

Agreed, if a vehicle isn't being driven at least twice a week (more in cooler weather) then I would keep a float charger on that DH battery, the biggest killer of AGM batteries is insufficient charging.
 

Ducky's Dad

Explorer
Lots of stuff going on here, so do a search for the myriad problems/causes with these batteries. First, what you are seeing is absolutely normal with this battery, same as the Odyssey 2150. Normal is not the same a desirable, but this is the way these batteries behave. You Nat Luna monitor is not accurate (I have three of them) but is what we would call "directionally correct." The full charge you show after the short drive is just a surface charge and the reading you get after a few hours more accurately reflects the actual state of charge. If you are using that battery in your Tacoma, Toyotas seem to generate lower alternator output voltages than other makes, and that contributes to the battery problem. The Odyssey needs 14.7V at high amperage to achieve and maintain a full charge, and you truck cannot provide that. My truck can't either, and I have a 270 amp alternator. I am not aware of any normal production vehicle that can produce the current necessary to keep that battery healthy over the long term. From the day you installed it, it began to sulphate, and the sulphation is a vicious cycle, especially on a vehicle that is not driven much. Sulphation prevents the battery from accepting a full charge and that inability to take a full charge gets progressively worse as the battery ages. UNLESS you tweak your charging system to deliver 14.7V (not practical in most cases) and drive it enough with minimum alternator output of 50 amps or better (so, idling for three hours to charge it does not help). The alternative is to acquire an Odyssey-approved charger to maintain that specific battery. Odyssey has a chart of approved chargers on their website under Literature or Tech Support tabs. There are not many suitable chargers, and the Odyssey Ultimizer Charger in the 40amp and 50amp versions is out of production. Odyssey is bringing out a new line of charger, but the big ones (the one you need) won't be out until spring. Per Odyssey, you need a minimum of 25amps at 14.7V+, up to 15.6V for desulphation. Odyssey says 25amps is the minimum, but 40amps is better and 50amps is ideal. But the charger also has to have the appropriate charge profile for that battery. If you can find one of the Ultimizer 40 or 50amp units, those would work but they are big and heavy, made by Schumacher for Odyssey. The easiest charger to find right now is probably the Ctek US 25000, which is "only" 25amps, but is on the Odyssey approved list. Once you get the battery back into condition (there is a recondition/desulphation cycle on the approved chargers), do a full charge on the shore power every eight weeks or so, whether or not you think you need it. I am on my fourth 2150/PM1 in about seven years and I am now being religious about maintaining that sucker. If you can't get it back to a full charge (12.84V or higher OCV after a eight-hour rest following the charge cycle), try to get Sears to warranty it. Sears will resist, so tell them to charge it on their eqpt and get it back up to spec. Make sure they do the voltage reading after it has rested for at least eight hours or, preferably, overnight. If it's not at 12.84 OCV or higher, it's not at full charge. Odyssey also has a percent of charge table on their website. Probably a good idea to take a copy with you when you go back to Sears. Be aware that this is a marine battery, and the warranty is only three years, compared to four year on the automotive version which is the same battery without the marine terminals.

Now, aren't you glad you asked?
 

jeffjeeptj

Adventurer
Duckysdad is spot on.

When you do the desulphate cycle and future charger applications, disconnect the vehicle from the battery. I had an odyssey pc1400 for 7 years in my 2003 Sequoia with no troubles. Bought a second one and it was in place for 3-1/2 years with no troubles. I decided to install a 31M/pc2150 and the Sequoia just won't keep it topped off, with mostly local driving.
Recently, Not thinking, i put my Ultimizer 50 on the Sequoia with the battery connected to the car and watched the voltage climb to 14.8. May just be coincidence, but an O2 sensor and a fuel sensor had to be replaced next time it was driven. Wife was driving, CEL light came on, she pulled into Toyota dealer we trust. That was the diagnosis, $300 later, all fixed. It does run smoother. :wings:
Tomorrow morning i'll check the voltage with the Fluke, then depart for a three hour drive one way, then return after a 2 hour pause. Will check batt voltage Sunday AM, and compare.
I may put the pc1400 back in, since i am not using the ARB fridge as much as I thought I would.
 

Ducky's Dad

Explorer
Not thinking, i put my Ultimizer 50 on the Sequoia with the battery connected to the car and watched the voltage climb to 14.8.
Depending on the state of the battery when it went onto the Ultimizer, it may have pulsed up to 15.6V while you were not looking. Everything on my Ultimizer 40amp/3Bank is automatic and it will do what it wants to do, when it wants to do it. 15.6V seems to be the magic level that is as much as the battery can take without damage, but at the same time it is high enough to damage the electronics on some vehicles, hence the strong recommendation to disconnect the battery before using the Ultimizer. Most smart chargers recommend that you disconnect the battery from load when charging, but Odyssey told me that for the 2150 it's more about the battery than the charger. If the battery is experiencing parasitic load while on the charger, it will never achieve full charge, or so they say. The smaller Odysseys, like the 1500s I have had, have been mostly trouble free and idiot proof (a good combination).
 

gravedgr

SE Expedition Society
Wow, that is a lot to consume - I'll need to read it again when I'm not on my phone.

What surprised me was that it maintained the same charge (+/- 0.2v) for a solid 12 months, and then suddenly this out of the blue. My driving habits have not changed - it gets driven at least every 2-3 days in a worst case scenario, usually daily if only for short trips. I work from home, so no daily commute, but we drive it almost exclusively when the whole family goes anywhere. At least once a month, we'll usually spend the day driving in the mountains so it will get a good 4-8 hours of drive time.

I do have it in my Tacoma and I have the tow pkg so I have the 130a alternator.

I'd planned to take it by Sears, so I may try that first and then pick up a charger whether they replace it or not.

FWIW, we drove 4,000 miles in 10 days in June for a trip to/from the Grand Canyon and it did great. We ran our ARB 50 qt for 24 hours solid and only registered a 0.2-0.4v change on the monitor (again, recognizing the accuracy or lack thereof). :)
 

Ducky's Dad

Explorer
pick up a charger
Don't know about GA, but in CA you can't just walk in and buy a suitable charger for these batteries. Nobody stocks them because they are so expensive. You'll probably have to order it. The Ultimizer 50amp/1Bank was $300 when it was available, and the Ctek US 25000 was close to that but prices have been coming down on that one. Amazon and Summit Racing sell the Ctek.

I drove my truck 1300 miles in about 52 hours a couple of years ago, with a 160amp alternator and no fridge. Checked battery when I got home and it was at about 80% of full charge. Called Odyssey and they told me that 1300 miles on a 160 amp alternator at mostly 70mph was not enough to fully charge that battery. Really.
 

4x4junkie

Explorer
Sounds to me like these batteries are very sluggish (takes a longer than normal time) to accept an absorption charge, and is why they never get fully topped off by the limited run times of a vehicle charging system (and need nurturing with an external charger). To me that is a mark of an inferior quality battery (probably too many impurities in the lead).
Seems like I've been seeing this on a LOT of batteries lately, both AGM and flooded types of many different brands. Batteries just are not what they used to be 8-10 years ago.
 

meental

Observer
It's not that they are sluggish, they just want higher amperage/voltage than most automotive systems will put out. If you read the odyssey literature, they are very specific about how to maintain them and recover them from deep discharge.

I had run my diehard 31m down to around 11v with my fridge one trip and had trouble with getting it back until I bought a high output charger from Sears and its been great since, I drive my truck every few days so every month I will hook up the charger and top off the battery.

I have run it down to 20% multiple times and have had no issues recovering it by following the steps put out by oddyssey.

Sent from my rooftop tent while stargazing
 

gravedgr

SE Expedition Society
Lots of stuff going on here, so do a search for the myriad problems/causes with these batteries. First, what you are seeing is absolutely normal with this battery, same as the Odyssey 2150. Normal is not the same a desirable, but this is the way these batteries behave. You Nat Luna monitor is not accurate (I have three of them) but is what we would call "directionally correct." The full charge you show after the short drive is just a surface charge and the reading you get after a few hours more accurately reflects the actual state of charge. If you are using that battery in your Tacoma, Toyotas seem to generate lower alternator output voltages than other makes, and that contributes to the battery problem. The Odyssey needs 14.7V at high amperage to achieve and maintain a full charge, and you truck cannot provide that. My truck can't either, and I have a 270 amp alternator. I am not aware of any normal production vehicle that can produce the current necessary to keep that battery healthy over the long term. From the day you installed it, it began to sulphate, and the sulphation is a vicious cycle, especially on a vehicle that is not driven much. Sulphation prevents the battery from accepting a full charge and that inability to take a full charge gets progressively worse as the battery ages. UNLESS you tweak your charging system to deliver 14.7V (not practical in most cases) and drive it enough with minimum alternator output of 50 amps or better (so, idling for three hours to charge it does not help). The alternative is to acquire an Odyssey-approved charger to maintain that specific battery. Odyssey has a chart of approved chargers on their website under Literature or Tech Support tabs. There are not many suitable chargers, and the Odyssey Ultimizer Charger in the 40amp and 50amp versions is out of production. Odyssey is bringing out a new line of charger, but the big ones (the one you need) won't be out until spring. Per Odyssey, you need a minimum of 25amps at 14.7V+, up to 15.6V for desulphation. Odyssey says 25amps is the minimum, but 40amps is better and 50amps is ideal. But the charger also has to have the appropriate charge profile for that battery. If you can find one of the Ultimizer 40 or 50amp units, those would work but they are big and heavy, made by Schumacher for Odyssey. The easiest charger to find right now is probably the Ctek US 25000, which is "only" 25amps, but is on the Odyssey approved list. Once you get the battery back into condition (there is a recondition/desulphation cycle on the approved chargers), do a full charge on the shore power every eight weeks or so, whether or not you think you need it. I am on my fourth 2150/PM1 in about seven years and I am now being religious about maintaining that sucker. If you can't get it back to a full charge (12.84V or higher OCV after a eight-hour rest following the charge cycle), try to get Sears to warranty it. Sears will resist, so tell them to charge it on their eqpt and get it back up to spec. Make sure they do the voltage reading after it has rested for at least eight hours or, preferably, overnight. If it's not at 12.84 OCV or higher, it's not at full charge. Odyssey also has a percent of charge table on their website. Probably a good idea to take a copy with you when you go back to Sears. Be aware that this is a marine battery, and the warranty is only three years, compared to four year on the automotive version which is the same battery without the marine terminals.

Now, aren't you glad you asked?
Okay, I finally got a chance to read and digest this.

First, ****** - at least half the Taco owners I know on Tacomaworld who offroad have this battery. I can't believe I never read about this before buying it. :(

Second, I guess there is no information about whether the charger due out in the spring is supposed to be more or less than the previous Ultimizer (OMAX) chargers. I found one place that appears to still have them in stock and I'm debating ordering one now.

Third, if this is going to be a long term problem, I would rather switch batteries - although, I suppose there is no way to get Sears to warranty this with a different battery of similar value. I bought this about 15-16 months or so ago, but I'm doubtful I have the receipt. Is there a way to verify purchase without it?


In a way, I've regretted the 31M for a while. Although everyone swears by them, I had planned to do a dual battery set up for lights & accessories - except it is so big, you can no longer get 2 in the stock location and anywhere else requires moving something. Ugh.
 

Naptown

Observer
Here is a battery charger that I use as a floor charger. I've been using it for almost a year now without issue.

http://www.sears.com/diehard-platinum-125a-shelf-battery-charger-engine-starter/p-02871327000P?prdNo=8&blockNo=8&blockType=G8

Works great on Sears DH Platinum, Odyssey, Northstar, Brute Force, etc... All the TPPL type batteries.

There are other more expensive chargers that work too, like this

https://www.bluesea.com/products/7522/P12_Battery_Charger_-_12V_DC_40A

but unless you need onboard charging for multiple banks, no need for it. Thing to remember here is that these batteries are not your run of the mill AGM's, they are TPPL, "Thin Plate Pure Lead". They have huge capacities and it takes the right charge voltages to maintain them. You want something that will acheive 14.7 volts for absorbtion charge and 13.6 Float. I design and install many large battery bank systems for a living, working on large yachts. The amperage doesn't matter as much, it will just take longer.
 

Ducky's Dad

Explorer
First, ****** - at least half the Taco owners I know on Tacomaworld who offroad have this battery. I can't believe I never read about this before buying it.
In one of the other threads on this topic, it was reported by another Toy owner that the factory alternator puts out about 13.9V. I have not tested the alt on my Tundra, but I have read about this Toy characteristic in other forums. Probably accurate reports because there are kits to boost the Toy alt output, but that does not get them anywhere near 14,7V. Try Dirty Parts for the kit or for a referral. I put a 270amp alternator in my Dodge, and I still have to use the Ultimizer to maintain my 2150, mostly because my alternator output is controlled by the ECU and is generally around 14.2-14.3V.

Second, I guess there is no information about whether the charger due out in the spring is supposed to be more or less than the previous Ultimizer (OMAX) chargers. I found one place that appears to still have them in stock and I'm debating ordering one now.
The full line of chargers was due out in October but they are behind schedule. Most should be out "soon," but the big one that you need will be even later. The old Ultimizers were manufactured by Schumacher to Odyssey specs, but Odyssey would not tell me who is manufacturing the new line. And the big one, for the 2150/PM1, will apparently be built by a third undisclosed company. It will only come in a 1-bank, the 3-banks are history. If you buy one of the old Ultimizers, get the 40amp or 50amp, don't waste money on a smaller one. Be aware that these chargers are big and bulky, apparently use a transformer, and don't stash easily under a seat or in a tool box. The 3-bank units have a lot of heavy cables and clamps that just get in the way, so try for a 1-bank if you can find it. I am guessing that the new line will be fully solid state and will resemble the Ctek units.

Third, if this is going to be a long term problem, I would rather switch batteries - although, I suppose there is no way to get Sears to warranty this with a different battery of similar value. I bought this about 15-16 months or so ago, but I'm doubtful I have the receipt. Is there a way to verify purchase without it?
This is long term, because that is the way these batteries are built. If you want to keep using these batteries, I think you you need to resign yourself to the maintenance routine. Northstar told me that the Los Angeles Metropolitan Transit Authority (MTA) has been using 2150s in their buses. Those buses run all day, every day, mostly at idle or in low speed traffic, and when they get back to the maintenance yard at the end of their shift, they are hooked up to a maintenance charger, every day. Northstar also told me that MTA is switching over to Northstar AGM Grp 31s, and that Sears has switched their Die Hard Platinum from Odyssey to Northstar manufacture. The DieHard Gold AGM looks like a Northstar, but it is not their top-end battery, so don't let Sears replace your PM1 with a Die Hard Gold. Even if you can't find the receipt, Sears should have the sales record in their computer. Northstar also told me that their 31M does not require the same charging and maintenance routines as does the Odyssey. I have a Northstar 31M in my Tundra, but it's too new to know if it will be better than the Odyssey. So far, so good.


In a way, I've regretted the 31M for a while. Although everyone swears by them, I had planned to do a dual battery set up for lights & accessories - except it is so big, you can no longer get 2 in the stock location and anywhere else requires moving something. Ugh.
The 31M AGM is still just about the best single battery you can get into most vehicles. Depending on your use, you may be happier with a pair of Grp 34s, and that will generally give you slightly more capacity than a single 31, and will give some redundancy if one battery fails. But you will need to wire it for an isolated dual battery system to get those benefits.
 

Forum statistics

Threads
185,544
Messages
2,875,707
Members
224,922
Latest member
Randy Towles
Top