School me: 200 vs 300 tdi

mountainpete

Spamicus Eliminatus
For those who have owned both, which do you prefer? Which makes a better expedition platform? Which is more reliable?

They have almost identical HP, but I believe the 300 had considerably more torque. Different belts, 300 is smoother, 200 and early 300 have no electronics, 300 has a better oil pump...

Looking to get schooled here :)

Pete
 

michaels

Explorer
it seems the 200TDI is prefered for zero electronics, but the 300TDi is renowned for the torque, just as you said, but has electronics to control it.
 

01001010

Adventurer
If I recall correctly, don't the 200s have a belt to power the valve-train while the 300s use a chain?
 

revor

Explorer
01001010 said:
If I recall correctly, don't the 200s have a belt to power the valve-train while the 300s use a chain?
Vice versa

No Electronics on my 300. On Later Disco's there was EGR and some crazy fly by wire setup, it's easily removed and the engine then operates as a "normal" 300.
 

gjackson

FRGS
The 200 is a pretty old engine. It will bolt into a series truck with an LT77, but if put into a Defender will require a very long fan shroud at the front (factory part). 200s in good condition are getting harder and harder to find. The 300 has more torque, is easier to find in low mileage examples and is very sensitive to heat. Both have belts for the valve train, but gear drives are available for both and have been blamed for many blown engines. There is a lot of info out there about the 200 having a timing chain rather than a belt, but that isn't true, so you get no valve train advantage with the 200. The 300 will bolt direct to an R380 or a ZF for trans options.

The 200 gives 111hp at 4000rpm and 146 lbft at 1800rpm.
The 300 gives 113hp at 4000rpm and 195lbft at 1800rpm.

cheers
 

Yorker

Adventurer
I thought from the 2.5 diesel on all the Land Rover 4 cyl diesels used timing belts, and that the 2.25 was the last one with a timing chain.
 

proper4wd

Expedition Leader
Both engines have essentially the same power potential- the difference in extra torque from the 300 comes from small changes in the injection pump, turbo, etc.

The big difference is an overall reduction in valvetrain noise on the 300. Land Rover went to great lengths to ensure that the only noise eminating from the 300 was bottom end. It sounds much more solid and less clattery. This does not relate to performance though, its just a NVH thing.

Personally I like the 200s... I have more experience with them. Both are bulletproof once reduced to the minimum of electrics. As pointed out, though, 200 stuff is getting hard to find.

The difference in the fan shrouds is due to the length of the bellhousing and the placement of the engine. The 200 has a very short bellhousing and the back of the motor is close to the firewall. The 300 has a very long bellhousing which places the front of the motor in essentially the same location as the front of a V8. If you want to split hairs, the 200 setup offers better weight distribution.

You can't go wrong with either if you know what to expect from a small displacement diesel. I know a lot of people who are disappointed from the "bottom end" performance of the Tdi's. Because they are small displacement, they rely heavily on boost to make the power they make. Once into boost and into their powerband, they pull like a freight train (especially after the right mods). But, idling in 1st gear off road, its still a 2.5L four cylinder. Just because its a Tdi does not mean it will idle over stuff like a Cummins 5.9. There just isnt the rotating mass and displacement.

Food for thought... Let me know if you have any other questions. Between my own first hand knowledge and the knowledge of those around me (whom I can point you towards for really technical questions) I should be able to help you out!
 

TeriAnn

Explorer
Or to put it into another perspective:

200tdi -> LT77 or LT77S -> LT230 -> 3.54:1 R&P
200tdi -> Series gearbox -> Series transfercase -> 4.7:1 R&P

300tdi -> R380 ->LT230 -> 3.54 R&P

The 200tdi has the same bell housing bolt pattern as the Series 4 cylinder engines whereas the 300tdi engine shares a bolt pattern with the GM/Rover aluminum V8.

The 200tdi has a Defender variation and a Discovery variation with different manifolds. The Discovery variation puts the turbo low creating interference issues with Series frame and LHD steering. The Defender version usually sells for a premium price because Series owners in the UK snatch good condition ones up.

200tdi cylinder heads, intake and exhaust manifolds are NLA. :(
 

EricWS

Observer
TeriAnn said:
Or to put it into another perspective:

200tdi -> LT77 or LT77S -> LT230 -> 3.54:1 R&P
200tdi -> Series gearbox -> Series transfercase -> 4.7:1 R&P

300tdi -> R380 ->LT230 -> 3.54 R&P

The 200tdi has the same bell housing bolt pattern as the Series 4 cylinder engines whereas the 300tdi engine shares a bolt pattern with the GM/Rover aluminum V8.

The 200tdi has a Defender variation and a Discovery variation with different manifolds. The Discovery variation puts the turbo low creating interference issues with Series frame and LHD steering. The Defender version usually sells for a premium price because Series owners in the UK snatch good condition ones up.

200tdi cylinder heads, intake and exhaust manifolds are NLA. :(
I really was sweet on a 200tdi conversion. Not so much these days. I wonder what other parts will prove to be problematic to find in the years to come.
 

proper4wd

Expedition Leader
Sadly that is going to be the case with all of these old engines. Somebody will step up and start making parts eventually, but it will take time and be expensive. 300 parts aren't getting any easier to find, either...
 

Yorker

Adventurer
transientmechanic said:
Sadly that is going to be the case with all of these old engines. Somebody will step up and start making parts eventually, but it will take time and be expensive. 300 parts aren't getting any easier to find, either...
I've often wondered about actual production #s for the 300/200 TDi's- Anyone know? They are popular and relatively cheap today Which is nice but their production run kind of pales in comparison to other diesels, or other Land Rover gas engines for that matter.
 
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Maryland 110

Adventurer
A lot of good information here. It should be noted that the clutch cover can be swapped and then a 200tdi engine will bolt right up to the 4 cyl r380 bellhousing. Additionally the 300 Tdi manifolds will bolt right on to the 200 tdi if you get the slightly longer 300 studs (but who wears out manifolds ? ). One of the big differences between the two engines as far as power ratings go is that the 200 left the factory with the wategate boost adjusted to only .6 bar and fueling adjusted appropriately for that boost level. The 300 left the factory set @ 1.0 bar and fueling slightly richer. Adjusting the wastegate actuator rod and richening the injection pump get the two engines on a very even playing field since they are the same displacement with the same Bosch injection pumps. Many parts are interchangable between the two engines. Like Transientmechanic I prefer the 200 having had both. To be honest if you are in a Tdi Defender you would be hard pressed to tell which engine is under the hood. I had that conversation with Mark from Roversnorth @ the MAR. Since they have several different trucks there, I asked if he could tell a difference and he said not @ all. If I were starting from scratch I woud go the 300 route. In my personal truck I have the Defender 200 tdi setup and love it. Early 300's had an issue with the pullys eating timing belts and messing up engines (even freshly replaced belts). There was an update kit for this and its readily available. Parts for both engines are readily available and are relatively cheap if you buy from Uk vendors and ship. For instance I needed a starter for my truck (same part 200 or 300 tdi). I called Paddocks Spares on Tuesday morning and had it on my front porch Thursday before noon for less than $200. I just last week learned 3 of my glow plugs are toast (took a 16 degree morning to need them) and got all four for less than 15gbp shipped -slightly less than $20. If you have a pre93 4 cyl gas or diesel truck the 200 Tdi bolts right in and the swap can be done in a day. The 300 involves welding in new mount brackets etc and if you are changing everything you might as well go that route. One note- if you are putting a Tdi engine in a truck with a 1.66 transfercase plan on changing it if you need to do highway speeds.
 
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Antichrist

Expedition Leader
Maryland 110 said:
Additionally the 300 Tdi manifolds will bolt right on to the 200 tdi if you get the slightly longer 300 studs (but who wears out manifolds ? ).
This is very interesting information. I want to put a 200Tdi in one of my 109's (due for restoration and I'm going to make it a 1 Ton).
Discovery 200Tdi's are more available, but won't fit, and Defender 200Tdi's, which fit, are more scarce and more expensive.
I'm looking at just making Defenderish manifolds, which shouldn't be too difficult, but if the 300 manifolds fit...
 

Maryland 110

Adventurer
Antichrist said:
This is very interesting information. I want to put a 200Tdi in one of my 109's (due for restoration and I'm going to make it a 1 Ton).
Discovery 200Tdi's are more available, but won't fit, and Defender 200Tdi's, which fit, are more scarce and more expensive.
I'm looking at just making Defenderish manifolds, which shouldn't be too difficult, but if the 300 manifolds fit...
We put 300 tdi manifolds and turbo on a Disco 200tdi for my brothers 110. The primary reason we went to such great lengths was that he wanted to also convert it to lhd @ the same time. He had already bought and imported the disco engine when he learned of the clearance issue of the steering shaft and the low hanging disco turbo. Its now all in the truck and we had it up and running last weekend. The main hurdle he has left is having a custom downpipe made up at the local muffler shop. If at all possible stick with the turbo setup. I have had an intercooler hose clamp slip off and these engines are dogs when they are naturaly aspirated. The manifolds from dead engines are readily available on ebay Uk.
 
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