Sad End to This Cautionary Tale, As Folks Start to Head Back Out Into the Wilds, Pls Be Careful

A quick true story: I picked up my new Unimog camper in Germany summer 2006. Shipped it to Jacksonville (mistake: should have used Halifax) and kept at Avi Meyers’ house in SF Bay Area over winter (it was October too late to drive to Alaska). Next spring picked it up and took a Baja trip, wanted to go to La Paz. But halfway down an aftermarket Koni broke in half and reamed out sidewall of R rear 395/85R 20 XZL. Put spare on, had to turn around north because tire was destroyed. I had a spare OEM shock.
In Tucson a truck tire dealer had a 50% XML same size. Made 2nd mistake and put it on. It blew out at (fortunately only) 10mph in Saline Valley, so no spare again. Found 3 used XZLs In Edmonton. Put 2 on the roof and drove home uneventfully.
Now I only use brand new tires. And carry a 2nd unmounted spare which is OK because Hutchinsons are field changeable.
Moral: tire problems can really mess you up!! Even people with easy to find tires should think about a 2nd unmounted spare for remote travel.
Or even more unmounted spares. Proper wheels are much less likely to fail (certain Stazworks fiascos excepted).
 

Kmrtnsn

Explorer
A quick true story: I picked up my new Unimog camper in Germany summer 2006. Shipped it to Jacksonville (mistake: should have used Halifax) and kept at Avi Meyers’ house in SF Bay Area over winter (it was October too late to drive to Alaska). Next spring picked it up and took a Baja trip, wanted to go to La Paz. But halfway down an aftermarket Koni broke in half and reamed out sidewall of R rear 395/85R 20 XZL. Put spare on, had to turn around north because tire was destroyed. I had a spare OEM shock.
In Tucson a truck tire dealer had a 50% XML same size. Made 2nd mistake and put it on. It blew out at (fortunately only) 10mph in Saline Valley, so no spare again. Found 3 used XZLs In Edmonton. Put 2 on the roof and drove home uneventfully.
Now I only use brand new tires. And carry a 2nd unmounted spare which is OK because Hutchinsons are field changeable.
Moral: tire problems can really mess you up!! Even people with easy to find tires should think about a 2nd unmounted spare for remote travel.
Or even more unmounted spares. Proper wheels are much less likely to fail (certain Stazworks fiascos excepted).

“2 is 1, 1 is none”
 

BigDawwg

-[Gettin-it Done]-
A quick true story: I picked up my new Unimog camper in Germany summer 2006. Shipped it to Jacksonville (mistake: should have used Halifax) and kept at Avi Meyers’ house in SF Bay Area over winter (it was October too late to drive to Alaska). Next spring picked it up and took a Baja trip, wanted to go to La Paz. But halfway down an aftermarket Koni broke in half and reamed out sidewall of R rear 395/85R 20 XZL. Put spare on, had to turn around north because tire was destroyed. I had a spare OEM shock.
In Tucson a truck tire dealer had a 50% XML same size. Made 2nd mistake and put it on. It blew out at (fortunately only) 10mph in Saline Valley, so no spare again. Found 3 used XZLs In Edmonton. Put 2 on the roof and drove home uneventfully.
Now I only use brand new tires. And carry a 2nd unmounted spare which is OK because Hutchinsons are field changeable.
Moral: tire problems can really mess you up!! Even people with easy to find tires should think about a 2nd unmounted spare for remote travel.
Or even more unmounted spares. Proper wheels are much less likely to fail (certain Stazworks fiascos excepted).

Ok,,,,, you are SPOT-ON, here in Alaska I carry 2-Full Size Spares, that's Wheels and Tires,,,, + Additional Lug-Nuts as well,,,,,, and my 9555 Sat-Phone, "Forget" the Cell-Phone.... :cool:
 
I’m an old fart; very computer/technology savvy however.
I think we put way too much emphasis on electronic gadgets **
rather than an old fashioned topo map and compass. And by far the most important tool: that 1450gm of bio-soft-firm-hardware between the ears.
Although I confess to carry way too many tools, spare parts, Star diagnostic computers, spare truck computers, and sundry survival items in the high GVW vehicle that I am fortunate to have.

** did anyone else read a NYT story very recently on SAR team burnout in Wind River area of Wyoming? The jokes about people pushing the panic buttons on gadgets because “I’m tired” or “bring me a cup of hot chocolate” are TRUE.
Nothing to do with the recent tragedy, just misuse of gadgets.
 

Ovrlnd Rd

Adventurer
I doubt an unmounted spare would have helped them. If they didn't have a patch kit I doubt they had any way to air a tire up even if they fixed it.
 

rruff

Explorer
I think we put way too much emphasis on electronic gadgets

I was starting to wonder if people were joking about all the sat devices and beacons... but I guess not. IME exploring alone in the wilderness far from other humans, with no means of communication or signalling, just isn't that dangerous. If It was I'd have been deceased a long time ago. And I *would* take chances... isn't it supposed to be an adventure? One thing I tended to do a lot was hike too far from camp so that I ended up finding my way back in the dark... with no lights of course.
 

Kmrtnsn

Explorer
I wrote this last night and held off posting it. I hope that we are adults and can handle the truth.

Let us Tip Toe around the problem and not say these people should never have been where they were!

It is a fact that every year people are where they should have not been! They do not have the training or education to do what they are doing. The news on TV, media news, news papers (far less now days then in the past), radio and even the internet like this discussion that is going on in this thread.

It makes the news every year when people get seriously hurt by making stupid decisions! This discussion is around the vehicle and people. Every time they discuss these situations and a media talking head is in a program with the experts they say; STAY WITH THE VEHICLE!!! Yet people still leave the safety behind!

Some quick points;
The vehicle is much bigger the and easier to see then 2, 4, 6 or 10 people out scattered around the landscape.

The vehicle is shelter. Shelter from wind, rain cold and heat (this does not mean sit inside with the windows rolled up tight). It may have had more water then they could carry on a hike, and/or food.

The survival tools at your hand are far grater then what is scattered across the desert.

Water the one thing all life needs. Living or being in the desert you need to consume much more water then you would near the high humidity areas in the world. Yesterday our humidity at out house was 12% in the afternoon. With living working and playing in these conditions you need to have a lot more water. To be comfortable each person in the Death Valley would need over a gallon of water a day out walking in those conditions increase that even more. Three days of water would have been 6 gallons of water for the couple. The 6 gallons X 8 pounds per gallon = 48 extra pounds of weight to start carrying as they leave the vehicle behind. So 3 days worth of water? ? ?

When you get dehydrated you make bad choices.

AxlesandAntennas said it in post #3 “Stay Put”.

To be positive about one thing they did was leave a itinerary. The negative is they did not follow their itinerary. They did not stay with the vehicle. If more details come to the light. We will see what the trail looks like.

Do I feel bad for being blunt? No! Why a person is dead, from wrong decisions. The decision was a bad decision they made. They paid the price of that education. For the cost of some proper training they could have survived.

I do have a little understanding of people. In a month we will not be talking about this situation. We will forget about it until the next one comes along and gets some media attention. We may again think “Oh yes, I was thinking about getting some training and education”. Well maybe tomorrow I may look into it? Then the next time you will here of this happening again, you will say to yourself “Heck I have made it this far and not needing it. I sure, I will be fine”. Hopefully the person who finds you made time to find the time to be ready to help you.

Like the Reeses Peanut Butter Cups advertisement “Not Sorry”

PS. As stated above the information is private information It is called the HIPPA law protects their privacy.

Da Frenchman

“Water the one thing all life needs. Living or being in the desert you need to consume much more water then you would near the high humidity areas in the world. Yesterday our humidity at out house was 12% in the afternoon. With living working and playing in these conditions you need to have a lot more water. To be comfortable each person in the Death Valley would need over a gallon of water a day out walking in those conditions increase that even more. Three days of water would have been 6 gallons of water for the couple. The 6 gallons X 8 pounds per gallon = 48 extra pounds of weight to start carrying as they leave the vehicle behind. So 3 days worth of water? ? ?”

You realize that they were literally in the same cut as a spring, right? They had to go right past it. Like you said, they literally had everything they needed within short sojourns from their car/basecamp. It just boggles the mind.
 

jbaucom

Well-known member
I was starting to wonder if people were joking about all the sat devices and beacons... but I guess not. IME exploring alone in the wilderness far from other humans, with no means of communication or signalling, just isn't that dangerous. If It was I'd have been deceased a long time ago. And I *would* take chances... isn't it supposed to be an adventure? One thing I tended to do a lot was hike too far from camp so that I ended up finding my way back in the dark... with no lights of course.

It's not that it's dangerous to explore without a means of signaling or communication, alone, and while no longer following the itinerary, it's risky. The great outdoors is not inherently dangerous. Camping, hiking, and backpacking are generally very safe activities, even in wilderness areas, especially for experienced or prepared individuals. However, it only takes one misstep to find yourself with a broken leg, head injury, or other malady that makes self-extraction difficult to nearly impossible. Our actions, subject knowledge, and preparation are what determine, to a great extent, how risky our outings or adventures are. Having a means to signal or communicate with others (SAR in this case) is just part of being prepared. For only a little money and weight, you can carry a device that permits you to communicate with emergency responders from virtually anywhere in the world. Going out without a means of signaling or communication is a risk one may take; hopefully it is a calculated risk instead of a risk that the individual was unaware of until the very end.

No one ever starts out thinking: "today is the day I'll need search and rescue." I pray I never need SAR, but I'll be grateful that my InReach plan only costs me $13.65/mo. to be able to send them my coordinates and communicate if I ever find myself in dire need.
 

BigDawwg

-[Gettin-it Done]-
Ok,,,,, I was just sent this from some family members in Phoenix.....:rolleyes: it looks as though there was a Fall.....
BD in Alaska....
 

Attachments

  • Screenshot 2021-04-12 173602.png
    Screenshot 2021-04-12 173602.png
    134.9 KB · Views: 231

axlesandantennas

Approved Vendor
I have not checked this tread since the couple was found. I am astonished and sad that the guy is dead. To be quite honest, I'm actually pretty mad. And don't come at me with sad songs of how we should be respectful. Believe me, I am.

When you get lost, and as long as you are not in imminent danger, STAY WHERE YOU ARE AT!

Playing 'hide and go seek' is hard enough when you are sitting in one location. It's impossible when you are moving around. I've talked to a few SAR folks over the years and it's always the same. The living are found when they stopped and sat for the rescue. When they find dead bodies, it's because the person would not stay still.

Their car was found in what, a day or so? Took a few other days to find the people.

Your body is a much smaller visual footprint than a full size car. A car has all kinds of reflective surfaces on it that will catch the eyes.

Matter of fact, lets look at your car and what it can do:
Mirrors to flash the sun
Set a tire on fire to produce a ton of smoke (don't give me that nonsense about forest fires. You are hurt and need help. Thick black smoke is going to locate your position)
Sit inside during the night.
Move around the shadows of it to stay cooler during the day.
The list can go on.

Frenchie said it above about the weight of water. 8 pounds to the gallon. A person would need at least 1 gallon to be even remotely comfortable in the desert per day, and that's just barely moving around. Not sure how much they had, but if they had enough, it would have been very heavy.

inReach? How many owners of these device truly understand how these things work? "oh, I just pull out it for emergencies" Yeah, that's dumb. In an emergency, you are going to be thinking a whole lot differently. You need to use that little device a few times a month to get comfortable with it.

Saw a few comments about what a map shows. Let me lay down the law on this. I am a PROFESSIONAL CARTOGRAPHER. Have been for a long time. You know what a map is? It's a model. And all models are inherently inaccurate. While you may be able to see peaks and valleys, you won't be able to see micro-terrain. Not to mention, how good at reading a map are you really? I've been doing this since the 90s and still get turned around. Again, it's easy to do stuff when you are in a good mood. Add stress to it, and you forget the most basic of skills. Same with your smart phone GPS. Might be able to show you where you are at to within a few meters, but your geography is still going to be iffy. Map shows water over there! Yeah, good luck with that. I live in East Tennessee. Our maps show all kinds of streams and water. The thing is, a lot of them are wet weather only. Maps tend to show all the things all the time. Sometimes it's there, sometimes it's not. (you should still buy my maps though).

Speaking of local terrain...they were just a few miles hike? Sounds easy. Well, maybe if you were not walking over uneven terrain. Do a ten mile walk down your asphalt road. Kind of tired huh? Now do it a gravel road. Yeah, no.

It's easy to arm chair this event, and that's exactly what I am doing. But I tell you, this stuff drives me up the wall. I'll even go so far as to blame TV. We had a local guy in the Smokies a month or so ago get lost. His solution? Follow the water down stream. Except for him, some of the banks were so steep, he had to wade in the water. Sounds like some non-sense these TV survival dudes talk about doing. He was lucky and survived. I also remember a young kid got lost in the Smokies a few years ago. SAR found him a few days later. Kid was smart and did not wander around. He made a bed on the ground and stayed put. He was hungry when they found him, and that's all.

One more thing. I'm a vet. Being a vet does not make you Chuck Rambo Norris. The military does not teach you individual survival skills like you think they do.
 

rruff

Explorer
Ok,,,,, I was just sent this from some family members in Phoenix.....:rolleyes: it looks as though there was a Fall.....

More info from the gofundme page:

"Rescuers, family, and friends were devastated to discover that Alex had suffered fatal injuries trying to make it through Willow Creek Canyon to the nearest road for help, and that Emily had suffered a severe foot injury requiring surgery."
 

rruff

Explorer
When you get lost, and as long as you are not in imminent danger, STAY WHERE YOU ARE AT!

They were *not* lost.

They got flat tires while driving in a remote and rugged area in a Subaru, and supposedly had no means to repair the tires. That part was pretty dumb. Deciding to hike out to a paved road to get help was sensible I think. It was < 5 miles and they had plenty of water and were "experienced campers". Instead of hanging out at the car, forcing a SAR operation and hoping they were found before they died, they could hike for a few hours to get help. Unfortunately the main pass they took had very steep walls and long drops when they got closer to their destination. And apparently they made an error in judgement and both ended up badly injured (one fatally).

For me, the cautionary lessons are:

1) Have decent tires and a good spare, and at least a rudimentary ability to fix flats.
2) Respect the terrain and your ability to hike, scramble, crawl across it without getting hurt. If in doubt turn around. Don't get yourself in a position where you *can't* turn around.
 

Kmrtnsn

Explorer
They were *not* lost.

They got flat tires while driving in a remote and rugged area in a Subaru, and supposedly had no means to repair the tires. That part was pretty dumb. Deciding to hike out to a paved road to get help was sensible I think. It was < 5 miles and they had plenty of water and were "experienced campers". Instead of hanging out at the car, forcing a SAR operation and hoping they were found before they died, they could hike for a few hours to get help. Unfortunately the main pass they took had very steep walls and long drops when they got closer to their destination. And apparently they made an error in judgement and both ended up badly injured (one fatally).

For me, the cautionary lessons are:

1) Have decent tires and a good spare, and at least a rudimentary ability to fix flats.
2) Respect the terrain and your ability to hike, scramble, crawl across it without getting hurt. If in doubt turn around. Don't get yourself in a position where you *can't* turn around.

It was NOT sensible in any meaning of the term. How about you take a look at that valley on Google Earth and follow the terrain down to Mormon Point?
 

BigDawwg

-[Gettin-it Done]-
I have not checked this tread since the couple was found. I am astonished and sad that the guy is dead. To be quite honest, I'm actually pretty mad. And don't come at me with sad songs of how we should be respectful. Believe me, I am.

When you get lost, and as long as you are not in imminent danger, STAY WHERE YOU ARE AT!

Playing 'hide and go seek' is hard enough when you are sitting in one location. It's impossible when you are moving around. I've talked to a few SAR folks over the years and it's always the same. The living are found when they stopped and sat for the rescue. When they find dead bodies, it's because the person would not stay still.

Their car was found in what, a day or so? Took a few other days to find the people.

Your body is a much smaller visual footprint than a full size car. A car has all kinds of reflective surfaces on it that will catch the eyes.

Matter of fact, lets look at your car and what it can do:
Mirrors to flash the sun
Set a tire on fire to produce a ton of smoke (don't give me that nonsense about forest fires. You are hurt and need help. Thick black smoke is going to locate your position)
Sit inside during the night.
Move around the shadows of it to stay cooler during the day.
The list can go on.

Frenchie said it above about the weight of water. 8 pounds to the gallon. A person would need at least 1 gallon to be even remotely comfortable in the desert per day, and that's just barely moving around. Not sure how much they had, but if they had enough, it would have been very heavy.

inReach? How many owners of these device truly understand how these things work? "oh, I just pull out it for emergencies" Yeah, that's dumb. In an emergency, you are going to be thinking a whole lot differently. You need to use that little device a few times a month to get comfortable with it.

Saw a few comments about what a map shows. Let me lay down the law on this. I am a PROFESSIONAL CARTOGRAPHER. Have been for a long time. You know what a map is? It's a model. And all models are inherently inaccurate. While you may be able to see peaks and valleys, you won't be able to see micro-terrain. Not to mention, how good at reading a map are you really? I've been doing this since the 90s and still get turned around. Again, it's easy to do stuff when you are in a good mood. Add stress to it, and you forget the most basic of skills. Same with your smart phone GPS. Might be able to show you where you are at to within a few meters, but your geography is still going to be iffy. Map shows water over there! Yeah, good luck with that. I live in East Tennessee. Our maps show all kinds of streams and water. The thing is, a lot of them are wet weather only. Maps tend to show all the things all the time. Sometimes it's there, sometimes it's not. (you should still buy my maps though).

Speaking of local terrain...they were just a few miles hike? Sounds easy. Well, maybe if you were not walking over uneven terrain. Do a ten mile walk down your asphalt road. Kind of tired huh? Now do it a gravel road. Yeah, no.

It's easy to arm chair this event, and that's exactly what I am doing. But I tell you, this stuff drives me up the wall. I'll even go so far as to blame TV. We had a local guy in the Smokies a month or so ago get lost. His solution? Follow the water down stream. Except for him, some of the banks were so steep, he had to wade in the water. Sounds like some non-sense these TV survival dudes talk about doing. He was lucky and survived. I also remember a young kid got lost in the Smokies a few years ago. SAR found him a few days later. Kid was smart and did not wander around. He made a bed on the ground and stayed put. He was hungry when they found him, and that's all.

One more thing. I'm a vet. Being a vet does not make you Chuck Rambo Norris. The military does not teach you individual survival skills like you think they do.

Ok Professor Charto,,,,, I tried leaving this alone, but alas,,,,,,, I'm callin BS on the BOLD Comments above,,,,, I know Exactally what I'm looking at on a Map, any Map,,,, but my Preferred Map Source is a 7.5Min USGS TOPO Map, showing True North~Grid North~and Magnetic North, and understanding how to use the Attached Declination deg's that are given for that particular area you are looking at on that Map, and with a 7.5Min TOPO you will have 40' Contours,,,,, and that makes it pretty easy to see the lay of the land ahead of you,,,,, ie..... those Contours Stacked-up on each other at various points, shows you that area is Pretty-Dam Steep, and or even Straight up and Down, a Cliff.....
And as for your Military Comment, the Marine Corp as a Very Demanding Orienteering, ie... Mapping and Compass School, I know, as after returning from VietNam in late 1971, I was an Instructure for that Course a Camp Pendleton, CA., until mid-73 when I was Discharged,,,,, So, I'm laying down the Law now as well, careful what you put in Print,,,, you BETTER Know what the Hell your talking about,,,,,, if not, you may get called on it. :cool:
And my Preferred Compass is either a SUUNTO M-2/M-3 or a SILVA 2.0,,,,, Oh and yea, that's my Story and I'm Sticking to it.!!!!
BD in Alaska....
 

Rallyroo

Expedition Leader
I went to the Gofundme page and read the details.

"(April 9) After a failed aerial rescue attempt, rescuers finally made contact with Emily and Alex. Rescuers, family, and friends were devastated to discover that Alex had suffered fatal injuries trying to make it through Willow Creek Canyon to the nearest road for help, and that Emily had suffered a severe foot injury requiring surgery."

Recall, Willow Creek Canyon is the one where I said rope is required to rappel down the steep terrain.
 

Forum statistics

Threads
185,914
Messages
2,879,585
Members
225,497
Latest member
WonaWarrior
Top