running AGM and lithium

I currenty (no pun) have 2 odyesy extremes 170AH total under the hood of my 80, Im adding a 100ah lithium in rear, Im using a national lna setup for two odyessys now and I have the redarc bcdc1125d and a SBS 270 amp alternator. The prob is the redarc only does solar/AGM or solar/lithium.
What would you do in order to take ful advatage and have all batteires charged up for Im thinking of removing 100AH odyessy ad replacing with much lighter lithium and have red arc simply keep that charged up and run primary battery for normal truck functons only. and lithium off red arc for everything else IE: 700PS inverotr, fridge lights. 12K winc is off main battery and I have an 80 so I never winch anyway.
 

dreadlocks

Well-known member
house = lithium, agm for starter/winch.. two separate systems completely.. mebe consider offloading that 20A charger to a good home and funding a 50A version so you can drive less than half as far before recharging the lithium.
 

Alloy

Well-known member
AGM (flooded lead-acid technology) last the longest with 3 stage charging -Bulk, Absorb & Float and sometimes a 4th stage, equalization.

Generally, Lithium is 2 stage -Bulk & Float. . . . . .but float is not necessary for Lithium if there is no need to take the SOC (state of change) above 70%-80%. A partial charge does not affect the life expectancy of Lithium.
 

67cj5

Man On a Mission
AGM (flooded lead-acid technology) last the longest with 3 stage charging -Bulk, Absorb & Float and sometimes a 4th stage, equalization.

Generally, Lithium is 2 stage -Bulk & Float. . . . . .but float is not necessary for Lithium if there is no need to take the SOC (state of change) above 70%-80%. A partial charge does not affect the life expectancy of Lithium.
I agree, Although Lithium are good and lighter the they are better suited to other applications, Lithium batteries last longer if they are not fully charged, Charging causes Heat and heat damages batteries, You only have to look at cell phone batteries to see that in action because once they start to get hot they deform and start to swell up, Not only that Lithium require 14.2v to charge and AGM require 14.8v which in reality means having 2 charging systems or splitting the existing system,

Sounds like a lot of unneeded work and expense for something that you will see very little gain out of, AGM batteries were originally built for the US Air Force back in the 60's/70's and were designed to take a beating, It's nice to have the bragging rights at the end of the day around the camp fire but in reality Lithium offer very little for our application even more so when you compare how many Deep Cycle or AGM batteries you can buy compared to the cost of one lithium battery.

He needs to Save his money and spend it on the Wife.
 

DiploStrat

Expedition Leader
I think that I am confused and suspect that you are as well.

You have two AGM batteries "under the hood." And, assuming a typo, a National Luna relay isolator. Does that mean that one of these two batteries is a starter battery and the other a camper/house battery?

You want to add a lithium battery. Another camper/house battery?

You want to use a REDARC 1125D. It is designed to work as an isolator and battery profile changer. As such, it should allow you to add a lithium camper battery with no problems. See wiring diagrams linked here: https://www.redarc.com.au/dual-input-25a-in-vehicle-dc-battery-charger

You want to add solar to the REDARC. Again, no problem, but remember, the TOTAL output will only be 25A. The REDARC will take from the solar input first, and then from the alternator/primary battery input.

You want to use the camper battery to maintain your starter battery. The National Luna will do that automatically whenever the relay is closed. That is, assuming that the National Luna works like every other intelligent/voltaghe sensing relay that I have seen, if the voltage at the camper battery rises above a threshold, the relay will close and the charge from the camper battery will be shared with the starting battery.

To do this from a battery charged by the REDARC you will have to add some form of battery maintainer. Sterling Power sells one. The AMP-L-START is readily available in the US: http://www.lslproducts.net/ALS_Overview_Page.html Neither product is hard to install.

The real question may be: Why would you want to try to cover your camper loads with two dissimilar batteries? Seems like a lot of complexity and, given that the lithium and AGM batteries probably have different resting voltages, you probably don't want to leave them both connected to your load when not charging.

If you want to go lithium, I would probably simply buy a lithium battery of the correct size and charge it with the REDARC, as per the standard REDARC wiring. I would then remove the second AGM under the hood. You can add an AMP-L-START to maintain your starter battery if you wish.

Hope this is helpful and apologies if I have not understood what you are doing.
 

shoredreamer

Observer
Richie if you’re set on using LiFePo4 I’d suggest trying to get your hands on a BCDC1250D to charge lithium, especially since you’ve got the alternator power to easily support all this amp usage. Also if you’re set on keeping dual engine batteries, just run them parallel and load those up with all your driving power circuits (winch, compressor, driving lights). Then run all your house/aux/camp stuff to the LiFePo battery in the back with the BCDC. Get a Victron or Simarine monitor to watch all your batteries.
 
Richie if you’re set on using LiFePo4 I’d suggest trying to get your hands on a BCDC1250D to charge lithium, especially since you’ve got the alternator power to easily support all this amp usage. Also if you’re set on keeping dual engine batteries, just run them parallel and load those up with all your driving power circuits (winch, compressor, driving lights). Then run all your house/aux/camp stuff to the LiFePo battery in the back with the BCDC. Get a Victron or Simarine monitor to watch all your batteries.
Ive got the BCDC1225D and I was planning on losing ONE of the AGM the 100AH under the hood. And simply letting the relion 100AH LT(low temp) take care of what the 100AH odyessy was doing. I only run 65lt fridge 700watt PSW invertor and ARB twin and a bussman fuse block that takes care of all lighting and my lighting is now fairly minimu, 2 stedi 8.5s a kc 10in led and two sets of rigids(ditch,rear) and was going to have starter/winch battery just run off either the 150amp sequoia thats already installed or the 270amp SBS that I have yet to wire up. a merlin 140watt solar panel will be going to the redarc mounted up top on alu cab. I got lithium to lighten the load 100ah OE is 80 lbs. national luna would be gone, esecially if I do wire up the 270amp alternator
 
I think that I am confused and suspect that you are as well.

You have two AGM batteries "under the hood." And, assuming a typo, a National Luna relay isolator. Does that mean that one of these two batteries is a starter battery and the other a camper/house battery?

You want to add a lithium battery. Another camper/house battery?

You want to use a REDARC 1125D. It is designed to work as an isolator and battery profile changer. As such, it should allow you to add a lithium camper battery with no problems. See wiring diagrams linked here: https://www.redarc.com.au/dual-input-25a-in-vehicle-dc-battery-charger

You want to add solar to the REDARC. Again, no problem, but remember, the TOTAL output will only be 25A. The REDARC will take from the solar input first, and then from the alternator/primary battery input.

You want to use the camper battery to maintain your starter battery. The National Luna will do that automatically whenever the relay is closed. That is, assuming that the National Luna works like every other intelligent/voltaghe sensing relay that I have seen, if the voltage at the camper battery rises above a threshold, the relay will close and the charge from the camper battery will be shared with the starting battery.

To do this from a battery charged by the REDARC you will have to add some form of battery maintainer. Sterling Power sells one. The AMP-L-START is readily available in the US: http://www.lslproducts.net/ALS_Overview_Page.html Neither product is hard to install.

The real question may be: Why would you want to try to cover your camper loads with two dissimilar batteries? Seems like a lot of complexity and, given that the lithium and AGM batteries probably have different resting voltages, you probably don't want to leave them both connected to your load when not charging.

If you want to go lithium, I would probably simply buy a lithium battery of the correct size and charge it with the REDARC, as per the standard REDARC wiring. I would then remove the second AGM under the hood. You can add an AMP-L-START to maintain your starter battery if you wish.

Hope this is helpful and apologies if I have not understood what you are doing.
Ive got the BCDC1225D and I was planning on losing ONE of the AGM the 100AH under the hood. And simply letting the relion 100AH LT(low temp) take care of what the 100AH odyessy was doing. I only run 65lt fridge 700watt PSW invertor and ARB twin and a bussman fuse block that takes care of all lighting and my lighting is now fairly minimu, 2 stedi 8.5s a kc 10in led and two sets of rigids(ditch,rear) and was going to have starter/winch battery just run off either the 150amp sequoia thats already installed or the 270amp SBS that I have yet to wire up. a merlin 140watt solar panel will be going to the redarc mounted up top on alu cab. I got lithium to lighten the load 100ah OE is 80 lbs. national luna would be gone, esecially if I do wire up the 270amp alternator
 

dreadlocks

Well-known member
My BB 100AH Lithium will charge in ~2h from 5% to 100% w/50A charger.. thats a whole lot of amp hours for such a short drive and only 35lbs of battery.. fits my style of resting a few days, then going a few hundred miles and resting a few more, this is sooo much easier to get by w/out solar on lead since I always save the 10h+ drives for the rush to get home for work on monday.

with a 25A that would be ~4h or so, less if you dont use that much capacity of course.. would still be better than lead by 2x the time, but not as fast as you could enjoy.. I've got a 25A house charger now that I want to upgrade to 50A so I can run the generator half the time.
 
My BB 100AH Lithium will charge in ~2h from 5% to 100% w/50A charger.. thats a whole lot of amp hours for such a short drive and only 35lbs of battery.. fits my style of resting a few days, then going a few hundred miles and resting a few more, this is sooo much easier to get by w/out solar on lead since I always save the 10h+ drives for the rush to get home for work on monday.

with a 25A that would be ~4h or so, less if you dont use that much capacity of course.. would still be better than lead by 2x the time, but not as fast as you could enjoy.. I've got a 25A house charger now that I want to upgrade to 50A so I can run the generator half the time.
Not sure if you follow my youtube chanels but for instance I have been on the road in my 80 series 62 days so far this year. So driving to charge is no prob. I bumped the alternator from the 90 amp to a 150 amp sequois alternator and then went and bought the american made (denso internals) SBS 200idle 270 AMP running alternator. and sized the red arc for my 2 battery bank. I didnt realize it could do AGM AND Lithium at same time. SO I was planning on using starter battery as toyota intended, and then wiring red arc for lithium only. if that all makes sense.
 

Alloy

Well-known member
I agree, Although Lithium are good and lighter the they are better suited to other applications, Lithium batteries last longer if they are not fully charged, Charging causes Heat and heat damages batteries, You only have to look at cell phone batteries to see that in action because once they start to get hot they deform and start to swell up, Not only that Lithium require 14.2v to charge and AGM require 14.8v which in reality means having 2 charging systems or splitting the existing system,

Sounds like a lot of unneeded work and expense for something that you will see very little gain out of, AGM batteries were originally built for the US Air Force back in the 60's/70's and were designed to take a beating, It's nice to have the bragging rights at the end of the day around the camp fire but in reality Lithium offer very little for our application even more so when you compare how many Deep Cycle or AGM batteries you can buy compared to the cost of one lithium battery.

He needs to Save his money and spend it on the Wife.

I've used AGM in the past. Before I went to AGMs (2x$ for 1/2 the life) I'd spend money on open cells or Lithium.

For deep cycle storage I currently have 900Ah of open cells.

Lithium is the best but I'm not willing risk $$$$ that the inverter/charger/solar would end (my stupidity) up charging the bank (even a portion of it) below 32F.

I looked at adding a battery temp control system but it used Ah, added cost and was 1 more thing to maintain. Another issue was starting the temp control system 2-3 days before leaving on a winter trip. The open cells allow us to hook up and go.
 

67cj5

Man On a Mission
Well I am running ABS Deep Cycle Lead Acid 115A/h batteries, and my last starter was about a 85/90Ah and it lasted over 9 years and I am testing the 115 I was using as a starter until two weeks ago when I replaced it with a 85A/h Type 27.

But that 115 I bought it around june/july 2017 and I charged it up and let it sit for about 10 hours, On Thursday night last week I put it in a battery Box and hooked up my ARB 50QT Fridge to it and it is still running after 98.5 hours later and I still have heaps of juice left to go for another day or two, The whole Idea was to see how long one would run my fridge, I have 3 of them, Anyways this battery is still at about 72% Full So I am pretty happy with that after over 4 Days later,

I was going to make 2 banks of 3 or 2 banks of 2 but After doing this test I don't think I will need any more unless I want 2 banks of 2, I don't see the point in spending that kind of dough on a battery because I can buy 10+ of these for the cost of one lithium battery, These batteries come with a 5 year warranty so I can't go wrong really,

Sure Lithium are nice but that means running another charging source or modding your existing Alternator to suit, Great batteries but they come with a lot of additional expense thrown In. I like em but there is now way would I fork out all that extra cash when what I have blows most things out of the water.
 
Ok i appreciate all the inpt, BUT I have a reLIon lithium low temp battery a red arc BCDC1225d two odyssey extreme and a 140watt merlin sloar panle. So not going with lithium is out the window. what I need to know is what is the best way to wire all this up first time. I planned on losing the 100ah AGM 90lb battery and replacing with the lthium I was going to wire the red arc to deal with just the lithium and deal with solar panel. and let the alternator do what it does to the 70ah starter battery I would like a monitor device, previoulsy the national luna(that I dont need anymore) would keep me up on my batteries, BUT I do have a scanguage monitoring main battery and a seperate voltmeter for second battery . any help is good. or Ill do what Ive always done and wing it.
 

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