realistic ideas/goals for expo xj and lift?

[vonguido]

Hello everyone!
I'm newish to the forum and had some questions about some ideas I have for my 98 XJ. I have done a good amount of reading here and on the other forums(cherokeeforum, jeepforum, pirate4x4) about lifts, nav, comms, and other gadgets and add on's. However I want to get some insight from you all since Overlanding/expedition is the what I'm into, not bashing my rig purposefully on huge rock gardens.

I have a 98 Jeep XJ Limited 4.0l, AW4, np242 w/ hnt, XJ Dana44 rear/HP Dana30, an old saggy 4.5-5" mixed parts lift, 3.55 gears and 31's.
I'm starting a new 2nd job as a local EMT and that will be paying for all the add on's I'm planning but I want to do it right the first time so I need some input.

My questions:
I want to stay at 4.5-5" w/ a long arm setup and I have read radius arm LA have issues with unloading, and twisting and such when on steep hills, and that a 3-link or 4-link is the way to go. I was eyeing a Clayton system but now looking at the BDS 4.5" LA system. Is the extra weight I would be carrying be better suited for one LA setup over the other?

I know there's already a thread on tire size but I'm wanting to run 35s or would 33s be best? Having an XJ dana44 in the back with soon to be 35spline axle shafts that should be fine for the wheeling I do, but I plan on keeping the HP Dana30 upfront and running RCV shafts, do you think they should hold up to the 35s?

I plan on taking this XJ cross country in the fall of 2014 so I have the time to build it just want to do it right the first time. I also plan on having a RTT up top, dual batteries, winch, bumpers, fridge/freezer and other goodies so lots of weight. Sorry for this being a long start just curious what peoples thoughts are on it. Thanks in advance and cheers

 

[mudbutt]

I have the BDS 4.5 long arm lift on my '98 and love it.

Don't worry about the weight, the springs will handle it. After 4 years on my daily driver they haven't sagged one bit. When camping I will load 200 pounds of gear into the back and the Jeep doesn't even know it's there.

Their customer service is some of the best I've ever encountered and they have a "No questions asked" guarantee. You break it, they replace it.

There are only 2 flaws with the kit. The quick disconnects are junk (unless they have redesigned them since I bought my lift 4 years ago). Plan on replacing them with something like the JKS units.

Also, the bushings on the frame end of the track bar wear out rather quickly. Last I talked to them, they were considering a different material. Don't know if they have changed or not. But the first time I asked for new bushings they sent me a set free of charge. The second time I asked for a set, they sent me 2 new sets free of charge.

As to tire size, that will be up to you. I'm running BFG All Terrain 32 12.50 15's and had a lot of trouble keeping them out of the front fenders and air dam.

I've already trimmed the heck out of the air dam and lost both front flares.

I really like the look of the stock flares and front bumper but sadly that will have to go away. I've got a set of Napier flares in the garage waiting to go on and I may have to get an aftermarket front bumper because from all the pics I've seen they don't line up with the stock bumper at all and look hokey. But at least now I'll have a winch.

But I would think that tire clearance would be an issue regardless of which kit you choose. Of course it all depends on how wide of a tire you run, wheel backspacing, etc.

 

[SWbySWesty]

I had the 4.5" Rubicon Express LA lift on my 97 XJ. Loved it. Long arms are the way to go, especially if you're going with big tires and wheeling. Rode like a Cadillac. Last I heard, RE went out of business so Clayton is THE best, but $$. I think it really comes down to whether or not you'll really USE it. Are you wheeling in rocks where you'll slide on control arms for leverage? Clayton and RE are 3 link. Clayton is known to be bombproof. JKS quick discos are the way to go.

I didn't have to trim with the 4.5" and 33s. I regeared for them though to 4.56s. Yes, I ran the stock Dana 35 up front and the Chryco 8.25 rear with stock shafts and never broke one. 35s I don't think are really necessary...most people get everywhere on 31s! So far I get everywhere I want to go in my stock WJ with itty bitty tires (and rocker damage haha)

 

[njjeepthing]

I had the 4.5" Rubicon Express LA lift on my 97 XJ. Loved it. Long arms are the way to go, especially if you're going with big tires and wheeling. Rode like a Cadillac. Last I heard, RE went out of business so Clayton is THE best, but $$. I think it really comes down to whether or not you'll really USE it. Are you wheeling in rocks where you'll slide on control arms for leverage? Clayton and RE are 3 link. Clayton is known to be bombproof. JKS quick discos are the way to go.

I didn't have to trim with the 4.5" and 33s. I regeared for them though to 4.10s. Yes, I ran the stock Dana 35 up front and the Chryco 8.25 rear with stock shafts and never broke one. 35s I don't think are really necessary...most people get everywhere on 31s! So far I get everywhere I want to go in my stock WJ with itty bitty tires (and rocker damage haha)

FYI, Rubicon Express is alive and selling products, http://www.rubiconexpress.com/, Transamerica bought them, and were said to be continuing with the product lines untouched from RE.
Had the RE 3.5 on my XJ with OME shocks, great set up, I ran 31's with no issue.

 

[SWbySWesty]

oooooooo thanks for the update! Too bad they don't have WJ products

 

[ert01]

At 4.5" of lift, you'll get better ride quality if you switched to some good adjustable short control arms and drop brackets rather then going to long arms.

The reason is that the control arms would be perfectly flat using drop brackets. You will never get long arms that flat. It's simple geometry.

People have a hate on for drop brackets because they think they're rock anchors and can get bashed up, which may be true on a crawler, but for an expo rig its not a concern. Especially at 35" tires. You'd have to be in some really gnarly terrain for it to make much of a difference.

Just make sure to get some nice control arms with a good flex joint at one end and a rubber bushing on the other end. Currie makes some good control arms. JKS would also be a good choice combined with drop brackets.



I am speaking from experience here FYI. No guess work or theory involved...

My last XJ:
35" tires on 5.5" lift and Clayton long arms

Current XJ:
35" tires on 4.5" lift with Currie adjustable short arms and RE Drop brackets

 

[ert01]

Also, your HPd30 will work for 35's as long as you stick to expo driving and not rock bashing.

Plan to truss it and put a good stiff cover on it. Throw a full case locker in it (go with ARB, detroit, grizzly, OX etc... no Aussie/lock right/spartan). 4.56's or 4.88's will be ok but if you go with 4.88's maybe look into getting them cryo treated first for some peace of mind.

I'm still running my HPd30 with no problems. Just drive nice and not like a 16yr old.

 

[Chi-Town]

I also have a 98 Sport auto/242/HP D30/D44 at 3.5" Short Arm Rubicon Express SuperRide lift kit and a 32" BF Goodrich tire (my build here) and it's as big as I would go for a couple of reasons.

The higher the truck the harder it is to load and unload gear or get to a RTT, not to mention your center of gravity is raised which can be an issue for handling when loaded down.

One of my biggest concerns with lifting my truck was ride quality. If I'm going to be spending hours behind the wheel of it I want it to ride well and be comfortable.

The bigger the tire the more the strain on components and worse mpg. You can run a 33" tire without any issue on a 30 spline Dana 44 and save a ton of money on the axles and locker, not to mention you'll be able to run 4.56's opposed to 4.88's. The HP Dana 30 is more than capable with good shafts and a locker of handling a 35" tire.

The strain on the AW4 is often overlooked as this is a trans with cooling issue right out of the factory. You'll need to run a big cooler and pay close attention to trans temps. It also has a 3rd gear sprag issue under heavy load (aka big tires + a load of camping gear + RTT)

The mpg come in to play on long trips off the grid when you really don't want to carry around a spare 20 gallons of gas to get you back where you came from.

Depending how how much hard core offroading you do I'm guessing you'll have to compromise on certain parts of the build to accommodate that use.

 

[vonguido]

I have the BDS 4.5 long arm lift on my '98 and love it.

Don't worry about the weight, the springs will handle it. After 4 years on my daily driver they haven't sagged one bit. When camping I will load 200 pounds of gear into the back and the Jeep doesn't even know it's there.

Their customer service is some of the best I've ever encountered and they have a "No questions asked" guarantee. You break it, they replace it.

There are only 2 flaws with the kit. The quick disconnects are junk (unless they have redesigned them since I bought my lift 4 years ago). Plan on replacing them with something like the JKS units.

Also, the bushings on the frame end of the track bar wear out rather quickly. Last I talked to them, they were considering a different material. Don't know if they have changed or not. But the first time I asked for new bushings they sent me a set free of charge. The second time I asked for a set, they sent me 2 new sets free of charge.

As to tire size, that will be up to you. I'm running BFG All Terrain 32 12.50 15's and had a lot of trouble keeping them out of the front fenders and air dam.

I've already trimmed the heck out of the air dam and lost both front flares.

I really like the look of the stock flares and front bumper but sadly that will have to go away. I've got a set of Napier flares in the garage waiting to go on and I may have to get an aftermarket front bumper because from all the pics I've seen they don't line up with the stock bumper at all and look hokey. But at least now I'll have a winch.

But I would think that tire clearance would be an issue regardless of which kit you choose. Of course it all depends on how wide of a tire you run, wheel backspacing, etc.

I'm glad to hear that BDS has great customer service. I love of the look of the factory flares but they have to go for clearance issues, so I looked into the Notch Customs X-Max Flares. With 4.5'' of lift you can stuff a 35" tire at full droop....so they say. Its like the icelandic style of flares and I think it looks awesome.
Bumpers Im going to be going to the OrFab HD Winch bumper and rear carrier from JCR or detours...but not sure yet.
Also BDS did upgrade their quick discos, and I actually already have them on my XJ, I like them a lot very easy to use.

 

[SWbySWesty]

Check out Dirtbound Offroad. It's a friend of mine, but his Mojave bumper is pretty slick. (shameless plug). His background is all XJ with NAXJA.

 

[vonguido]

At 4.5" of lift, you'll get better ride quality if you switched to some good adjustable short control arms and drop brackets rather then going to long arms.

The reason is that the control arms would be perfectly flat using drop brackets. You will never get long arms that flat. It's simple geometry.

People have a hate on for drop brackets because they think they're rock anchors and can get bashed up, which may be true on a crawler, but for an expo rig its not a concern. Especially at 35" tires. You'd have to be in some really gnarly terrain for it to make much of a difference.

Just make sure to get some nice control arms with a good flex joint at one end and a rubber bushing on the other end. Currie makes some good control arms. JKS would also be a good choice combined with drop brackets.



I am speaking from experience here FYI. No guess work or theory involved...

My last XJ:
35" tires on 5.5" lift and Clayton long arms

Current XJ:
35" tires on 4.5" lift with Currie adjustable short arms and RE Drop brackets

Thanks for the insight, my only question is I was always under the impression long arms were better for the extended driving? true or false? I'm not opposed to short arms at all I was just under the impression LA's were better.
Currently right now I have RE adjustable lower control arms and 3.5'' springs w/ a teraflex 2" BB and a RE add a leaf in the back with the other half of the tera BB....like I said all the parts are old and warn out, plus the shocks on it are shot.

Also I'm assuming the RCV shafts would be more than sufficient for the 35's? I plan to go to 4.56 but might do 4.88 not sure yet though...Here in Ohio there are more hill climbs then anything at the offroad parks. What shafts are you running in your hp dana30?

 

[vonguido]

I also have a 98 Sport auto/242/HP D30/D44 at 3.5" Short Arm Rubicon Express SuperRide lift kit and a 32" BF Goodrich tire (my build here) and it's as big as I would go for a couple of reasons.

The higher the truck the harder it is to load and unload gear or get to a RTT, not to mention your center of gravity is raised which can be an issue for handling when loaded down.

One of my biggest concerns with lifting my truck was ride quality. If I'm going to be spending hours behind the wheel of it I want it to ride well and be comfortable.

The bigger the tire the more the strain on components and worse mpg. You can run a 33" tire without any issue on a 30 spline Dana 44 and save a ton of money on the axles and locker, not to mention you'll be able to run 4.56's opposed to 4.88's. The HP Dana 30 is more than capable with good shafts and a locker of handling a 35" tire.

The strain on the AW4 is often overlooked as this is a trans with cooling issue right out of the factory. You'll need to run a big cooler and pay close attention to trans temps. It also has a 3rd gear sprag issue under heavy load (aka big tires + a load of camping gear + RTT)

The mpg come in to play on long trips off the grid when you really don't want to carry around a spare 20 gallons of gas to get you back where you came from.

Depending how how much hard core offroading you do I'm guessing you'll have to compromise on certain parts of the build to accommodate that use.

Thank you as well for the info!
I dont plan on bashing the rig and totally get the COG I want to keep it low but at the same time want as much clearance under the rig as possible. I actually already have a genright 30.5 gallon tank sitting in the basement waiting for warmer weather to put on with everything else this spring. I would love to do a diesel swap and run bio-diesel but thats not gonna happen.
I already have a B&M Trans cooler on it and looking at doing some hood louvers to help with heat....my list of parts is kinda long. I have been reading threads non-stop trying to see what has worked for some people to get ideas for my own.
I understand the height issue but I'm ok with it as of now but when I start putting things together I will have to have a shake down run to see how things work before going full go.
I want to have this done by May for the Overland Expo but that's gonna be cutting it close.

 

[vonguido]

Check out Dirtbound Offroad. It's a friend of mine, but his Mojave bumper is pretty slick. (shameless plug). His background is all XJ with NAXJA.

That is another one Im looking at as well. I love the owners(I think) yellow XJ that thing is slick

I need to make a build thread on here to get things listed out and the things I have done so far...Like I said I just want to make sure its done correctly the first time, lift, axles, electronics, nav, comms, recovery.....Its gonna be an expensive 2014.

 

[ert01]

The whole idea of ride comfort in relation to control arms is purely due to the angle of the arms.

A stock jeep, unlifted, has perfectly flat control arms. Any bump you hit in the road is absorbed almost entirely by the suspension with very little force transferred into the unibody of the vehicle. (The rubber bushings also help absorb shock and vibration). Which is why a stock jeep rides nice.

Once you lift it, the control arms are at an angle. If you hit a bump in the road with the control arms at an angle, then a some of the force of the impact is transferred up the arm and into the unibody and is noticed by the driver and passengers. The suspension doesnt work as ideally to absorb the impact.

The idea behind long arms is that because they mount further back on the body, that the angle becomes less, which means less transferred impact. Which is true. Anything you can do to get that angle as close to flat as possible is a good thing for ride quality.

But with drop brackets you can make the angle truly flat when combined with the right lift height. (Drop brackets are ideal when you are running 4.5" lift).

So after you get that angle flat, you still will want some bushings that absorb vibration. There is no better bushing for that than the OEM rubber bushing. (Poly is terrible. Avoid it at all costs.)
However, you will want some articulation, so if you find some arms with a factory rubber bushing at one end and a Johnny joint at the other, you will have the best of both world.

I haven't personally used the JKS ones but they seem really nice. Rubber at both ends and the articulation is built into te middle of the arm. Very neat concept but I cant comment on durability.

Hopefully that helps clear up the relation between control arms and ride comfort is for you.


On another unrelated note, I added a radesign rail shifter in my XJ to help combat aw4 hear issues (along with the tranny cooler and hood louvers and a temp gauge). It allows me to choose the gear I want and also to lock the torque converter up... It is especially handy for long slight uphill grades on gravel or dirt... I can put it in 2nd gear and lock the TC and climb all day without any heat issues at all.

It's apparently hard on the TC to lock it in first or second but I don't see any harm in it if its a smooth trail and I'm steady on the throttle.

 

[vonguido]

Ert01 thanks for the input on the arm angles. I will have to sit down and figure it out, obviously staying w/ short arms will save me a good chunk of cash compared to the LA setup, I will have to see what kind of deal I can get on suspension components.