Production numbers

[plainjaneFJC]

INEOS is a massive chemical company with a CEO interested in delving into auto manufacturing but with zero experience.

Ineos Automotive Ltd. was formed in 2017 by Jim Ratcliffe in order to develop and manufacture an off-road utility vehicle, intended as a "spiritual successor" to the Land Rover Defender, under the codename Projekt Grenadier.[46] In September 2019, it was initially announced that vehicle, now officially named Ineos Grenadier, would be manufactured in two new factories in Estarreja, Portugal (chassis and body) and Bridgend, South Wales (final assembly), with powertrains supplied by BMW. The launch was planned for 2022.[47][48] In December 2020 Ineos announced the final assembly would take place in Hambach, France, instead of South Wales.

I don't see much stability nor any need for the venture to be successful as a stand alone manufacturer. Me, I'd wait 10 years. I'd want to see a huge used parts source in case Sir Ratcliffe pulls the plug. There is zero history of manufacturing anything. They are a chemical refinery. Even Standard Oil left Henry Ford alone.

For you Dan, you have enough history to get a factory sponsorship. INEOS, Grenadier NEEDS you. Why look at the after market if you can influence how it is built.

He needs some of that eye candy for his YouTube channel…

 

[billiebob]

O

Everyone seems to think it must be easy to get sponsorship from an OEM

But yeah, I think the Ineos is interesting, and I'm going to watch where it goes for sure.

-Dan

Not easy from anything established like Jeep or Ford but from the new guy with zero reputation........ don't give up. No one has approached him yet.

Find out where he plans to sell the Grenadier..... plan an overland trip there....
He was going to assemble them in the UK but like everyone else with BREXIT he is now building them in France.

You are a well spoken colourful guy with tons of wheeling, overland experience and respect for the vehicles you drive. Sir Ratcliffe seems to want into that world. I have no idea, he may be a Dakar Rally veteran but I doubt it.

google is wonderful

Jim Ratcliffe - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

In the past 5 years this 70 year old billionaire has embraced sport. Americas Cup, Formula One, Football...... you want to drive a sponsored Grenadier around the Mediterranean.

 

[alanymarce]

Not easy from anything established like Jeep or Ford but from the new guy with zero reputation........ don't give up. No one has approached him yet.

One comment on sponsorship - if one does get into a sponsorship deal one then has obligations to the sponsor. Even if the deal respects honest opinion on the product (which one would hope) there's an expectation of time required to provide reports, photos, videos, etc. A deal with Ineos would, I believe, result in a significant commitment of time, and the potential for a perception of loss of objectivity.

 

[ChasingOurTrunks]

www.carscoops.com notes "Ineos has said before that in order for the Grenadier to prove profitable, they’ll have to achieve between 25,000 and 35,000 units sold on an annual basis". Most businesses assume 5 year business plans so this would imply at least 125,000 units to achieve profitability in the first 5 years.

Just want to chime in and say this is the correct range that has been talked about for a few years for global production, so it's not only from one source - i've seen the same estimate from Ineos directly a few times and it was repeated at the in-person event in Calgary to see the Grenadier in the flesh.

@Dan Grec for aftermarket stuff, I think you'll be impressed with the number of partners Ineos has reportedly worked with. I understand ARB, Ironman4x4, and a few others in Australia have already been enlisted for support and provided with the CAD files for making accessories (https://www.goauto.com.au/news/ineo...ns-developed-down-under/2021-09-27/85989.html).

I've also read elsewhere that Alucab is working on a roof conversion (like the Icarus Defender or the Troopy conversions). As far as things like Roof Racks, I've seen both Rhino Racks and Front Runner racks in various media.

 

[BajaSurfRig]

An Alucab pop top roof on a Grenadier would be amazing!!!

 

[Dan Grec]

Just want to chime in and say this is the correct range that has been talked about for a few years for global production, so it's not only from one source - i've seen the same estimate from Ineos directly a few times and it was repeated at the in-person event in Calgary to see the Grenadier in the flesh.

@Dan Grec for aftermarket stuff, I think you'll be impressed with the number of partners Ineos has reportedly worked with. I understand ARB, Ironman4x4, and a few others in Australia have already been enlisted for support and provided with the CAD files for making accessories (https://www.goauto.com.au/news/ineo...ns-developed-down-under/2021-09-27/85989.html).

I've also read elsewhere that Alucab is working on a roof conversion (like the Icarus Defender or the Troopy conversions). As far as things like Roof Racks, I've seen both Rhino Racks and Front Runner racks in various media.

Oh wow, thanks very much for all that info, that is fantastic to know.

It really sounds like they have a great shot at cementing themselves as THE best global overland platform for the next couple of decades.

(I also heard the 70 series is ending production soon...)

-Dan

 

[SkiWill]

Oh wow, thanks very much for all that info, that is fantastic to know.

It really sounds like they have a great shot at cementing themselves as THE best global overland platform for the next couple of decades.

(I also heard the 70 series is ending production soon...)

-Dan

It could well be the best platform assuming that it displays reasonable servicing characteristics and sufficient longevity. All of that is just speculation at this point. Time will reveal the answer, but I'm hoping it succeeds on all fronts.

As for the 70 series ending production soon, I know Toyota can't meet current demand for the 70 series, so it seems curious that they would end production if they're in such high demand. Perhaps it's finally to the point where a significant redesign is required to meet safety requirements in their primary markets? Anything else you can share on that insight?

And I know that you're a big proponent of not necessarily carrying fuel beyond a 300-350 mile range in North America, but towing a small trailer (camper, rafting kit, etc.) and having to stop every 200 miles (or less when you come to a 100 mile gap without fuel) is really annoying so here's hoping for a Long Ranger extended range tank for the Grenadier as well. Certainly higher on my list than a pop-top.

 

[ChasingOurTrunks]

And I know that you're a big proponent of not necessarily carrying fuel beyond a 300-350 mile range in North America, but towing a small trailer (camper, rafting kit, etc.) and having to stop every 200 miles (or less when you come to a 100 mile gap without fuel) is really annoying so here's hoping for a Long Ranger extended range tank for the Grenadier as well. Certainly higher on my list than a pop-top.

Fully agree with all you wrote, Will - on this point I think the beauty of the design is that super high payload. It allows you to bring as much fuel as needed (realistically) for the areas that need it (Jerrys or Long Ranger-style tanks), but allows other users to "upfit" in different ways if they have different needs.

Range is up in the air still but I would expect a fully loaded Grenadier to get around 500 KMs with it's 90 liter tank; this is a conservative estimate of 18l/100 kms or 13 MPG which I think is fair. That means that an "Overland" ready fuel load - about a thousand kilometers - will be under 200 extra pounds, which is significant but a relatively small portion of the Gren's payload when compared to other vehicles -- for example, that figure is 25% of the available payload of my old JK that had similar MPG numbers. Only represents about 10% of what the Gren can do on paper, and Ineos is on record as testing the Gren at double payload because they know people are going to overload these things.

Time will tell, like you said Will, but I'm optimistic!

 

[SkiWill]

Fully agree with all you wrote, Will - on this point I think the beauty of the design is that super high payload. It allows you to bring as much fuel as needed (realistically) for the areas that need it (Jerrys or Long Ranger-style tanks), but allows other users to "upfit" in different ways if they have different needs.

Range is up in the air still but I would expect a fully loaded Grenadier to get around 500 KMs with it's 90 liter tank; this is a conservative estimate of 18l/100 kms or 13 MPG which I think is fair. That means that an "Overland" ready fuel load - about a thousand kilometers - will be under 200 extra pounds, which is significant but a relatively small portion of the Gren's payload when compared to other vehicles -- for example, that figure is 25% of the available payload of my old JK that had similar MPG numbers. Only represents about 10% of what the Gren can do on paper, and Ineos is on record as testing the Gren at double payload because they know people are going to overload these things.

Time will tell, like you said Will, but I'm optimistic!

I know that the Grenadier will have the payload to carry the requisite amount of fuel. That's not the issue. My issue is not wanting to have a bunch of Jerry cans on the roof, hanging off the side, back, etc. I really just want a bigger tank or second tank. No mess, no fuss. No stopping on the road side to lug a Jerry can off the roof to top off or at the gas station 15 minutes after the kids finally fall asleep which inevitably wakes them up in a bad mood. I'd certainly pay to use that payload in a more engineered solution than a Jerry can. There's a lot of value in keeping the kiddos happy on a long trip so that everyone is happy. I'm kind of over the Jerry cans on the roof. Been there. Done that. It works, but I don't like it:



I'm hoping that the aftermarket support for the Grenadier takes off. If you can get an extended range tank for the new L663 Defender, surely we'd get one for the Grenadier too. One would hope anyway...

 

[ChasingOurTrunks]

.....but how will you look "Expo Chic" if you don't have at least two jerry cans on your roof rack?

Jokes aside I agree with you that a built in tank is a better bet. There's two options on the Gren that have been speculated about; the first is a muffler relocation/redesign would free up a lot of space for an extra tank. The second is that the petrol has the same size tank as the Diesel, but the petrol doesn't need the DEF tank (AdBlue), which may result in space for a secondary tank. I'm like you - I prefer the ease of a built in tank - but Jerry cans are a nice way of doing it in a lot of North America as you'd only really "need" the extra range on some occasions, so you're not having to carry around the extra weight of a second tank all the time. So, preferences aside, the Jerry's aren't the worst compromise for the few times I really need the range (as opposed to just "like" the range).

But for no reason other than a spidey sense, I'd say give it 12 weeks post-Australian deliveries to customers to see a long range tank kit for it at least advertised as a working prototype, if not fully available. Gentleman's wager on this means I'm estimating a long-range tank kit to be available for the Grenadier by the last day of May; y'all have full permission to rub my face in it if I get this wrong

 

[shays4me]

I'd love to see one in person, I'd love to take one for a drive, who am I kidding, I'd love to own one! It does one thing that my Jeep doesn't and that's all about payload. The Jeep Wrangler platform is an awesome adventure vehicle, with more aftermarket support than any other platform, it just lacks the ability to carry all that aftermarket stuff. Time will tell if the Grenadier pans out, but I'm rooting for it. Even if I never own one I think it could teach the other OEM's about keeping things simple.

 

[AggieOE]

I know that the Grenadier will have the payload to carry the requisite amount of fuel. That's not the issue. My issue is not wanting to have a bunch of Jerry cans on the roof, hanging off the side, back, etc. I really just want a bigger tank or second tank. No mess, no fuss. No stopping on the road side to lug a Jerry can off the roof to top off or at the gas station 15 minutes after the kids finally fall asleep which inevitably wakes them up in a bad mood. I'd certainly pay to use that payload in a more engineered solution than a Jerry can. There's a lot of value in keeping the kiddos happy on a long trip so that everyone is happy. I'm kind of over the Jerry cans on the roof. Been there. Done that. It works, but I don't like it:

....

I'm hoping that the aftermarket support for the Grenadier takes off. If you can get an extended range tank for the new L663 Defender, surely we'd get one for the Grenadier too. One would hope anyway...

I love this idea! Nothing worse than thinking a 1/2 tank is plenty to get through a nap... then 'Empty' is blinking and your toddler still hasn't woken yet. While on this theme, a built-in iPad mount for a rear-facing kid, a sound machine to accomodate for slowing down, and a switch to turn off Auto-all-doors-unlock when you shift into Park would be appreciated from this dad.

 

[SkiWill]

I love this idea! Nothing worse than thinking a 1/2 tank is plenty to get through a nap... then 'Empty' is blinking and your toddler still hasn't woken yet. While on this theme, a built-in iPad mount for a rear-facing kid, a sound machine to accomodate for slowing down, and a switch to turn off Auto-all-doors-unlock when you shift into Park would be appreciated from this dad.

We have used a USB powered white noise machine that we turn on in the car. It doesn't work as well as I'd hoped. There's something about stopping and no longer having all of the subtle vibration and sense of motion that seems to wake at least one of them up every time. And if one wakes up, they're all going to be awake.

I'm hoping Chasing Our Trunks is right and there's an announcement on a tank by the end of May, but I'm not counting on it. My gentleman's wager is that we don't see a Grenadier delivered to a US/Canada customer in 2023. I don't think that this is due to Ineos' incompetence, I just think it is the reality of a project of this complexity at this point in time and what I'm seeing in my own project work. I hope I'm wrong. I'd love to see a production version to formulate my own opinion on the vehicle.

 

[AggieOE]

We have used a USB powered white noise machine that we turn on in the car. It doesn't work as well as I'd hoped. There's something about stopping and no longer having all of the subtle vibration and sense of motion that seems to wake at least one of them up every time. And if one wakes up, they're all going to be awake.

I'm hoping Chasing Our Trunks is right and there's an announcement on a tank by the end of May, but I'm not counting on it. My gentleman's wager is that we don't see a Grenadier delivered to a US/Canada customer in 2023. I don't think that this is due to Ineos' incompetence, I just think it is the reality of a project of this complexity at this point in time and what I'm seeing in my own project work. I hope I'm wrong. I'd love to see a production version to formulate my own opinion on the vehicle.

I hear you there. There is nothing more real than scope creep and everything pushing to the right.

 

[billiebob]

My gentleman's wager is that we don't see a Grenadier delivered to a US/Canada customer in 2023. I don't think that this is due to Ineos' incompetence, I just think it is the reality of a project of this complexity at this point in time

yep, plus add in the difficulties, logistics of importing anything automotive to North America. There are lot of lucrative markets way easier to access. That said North America might be a very profitable market long term but I'll bet the price goes up 50% by the time it gets here.