Northstar or Odyssey for trailer/solar application? Other options to consider?

[Ducky's Dad]

Replace more frequently? Why?

The PWs have a 12,000 lb OEM Warn winch that seems to use the same components as Warn's own 15,000 lb winch. Some PW guys use their winches hard and max draw is about 440 amps, as I recall. In an 8,000 lb 3G with a single battery and a 160 amp alternator, the battery is easily discharged to well below 50% during a hard pull. That's one of the reasons I prefer the big AGM as my primary battery, with the two smaller AGMs available during a pull if necessary, or as backup starting batteries. And I have a 270 amp alternator. But, some guys with 2005-2006 PWs are just now replacing their factory FLA batteries.

 

[ajmaudio]

Replace more frequently? Why?

Flooded often have better life cycle curves than AGM. That's one of the advantages I mentioned before.

I assume the 14.7v charging requirement thats not being met by the vehicle charging system as he mentioned in post #16?

 

[dwh]

The PWs have a 12,000 lb OEM Warn winch that seems to use the same components as Warn's own 15,000 lb winch. Some PW guys use their winches hard and max draw is about 440 amps, as I recall. In an 8,000 lb 3G with a single battery and a 160 amp alternator, the battery is easily discharged to well below 50% during a hard pull. That's one of the reasons I prefer the big AGM as my primary battery, with the two smaller AGMs available during a pull if necessary, or as backup starting batteries. And I have a 270 amp alternator. But, some guys with 2005-2006 PWs are just now replacing their factory FLA batteries.

Ah, so it's the size/capacity issue that results in shorter life, not the fact that they are using FLA.

 

[dwh]

I assume the 14.7v charging requirement thats not being met by the vehicle charging system as he mentioned in post #16?

That issue is with (Odyssey) AGM, not FLA. I was asking why the other guys got shorter life when switching back to FLA.

Which turns out is not from switching back to FLA after all, but from downsizing the battery when they do switch back.

 

[Ducky's Dad]

I assume the 14.7v charging requirement thats not being met by the vehicle charging system as he mentioned in post #16?
That issue is with (Odyssey) AGM, not FLA. I was asking why the other guys got shorter life when switching back to FLA.

Which turns out is not from switching back to FLA after all, but from downsizing the battery when they do switch back.

Based upon my discussions with Odyssey tech support, the main issue with Odyssey 31s in normal production vehicles is their inability to deliver 14.7V to the battery during charging from the alternator. In the PW, at least, the charging voltage is coded into the ECM and cannot be changed, even by a dealer's computer. This per the service manager at one of the largest Dodge dealers in this area. I investigated using an external voltage regulator and those who know told me that it would cause more problems than it would solve, because the truck's computers would be thoroughly confused. Having said that, the Northstar 31 in the Tundra is just fine, and Toyotas are known for low charging voltages, generally maxing in the high 13s, vs the 14.2-14.V that I see in the PW. I don't know what the chemical difference is between the Odyssey 31 and the Northstar 31, but it seems to be real. Northstar also told me that their batteries are not as sensitive to charging voltages as is the big Odyssey. I have had a handful of Odyssey G34s, and they don't seem to have this issue.

Re the FLA lifespan in PWs, the factory battery in the 3G is a G65 FLA starting battery, not a dual purpose or deep cycle. Published capacity is about 75% or so of the G31 AGMs, so starting in a hole by comparison. I am not aware of anyone who has managed to stuff a G31 FLA deep cycle into the PW battery box, probably because those cases are just too bulky. To fit the Odyssey to my truck, I had to shave the case ribs with a belt sander and wax the sides to get it to slide in. Width and height are OK, but length is just a little much.

I have two calls in to Morningstar about the Sunsaver Duo controller, but no response yet. Biggest question seems to be their operating temperature range for the controller, stated max at 113F. That seems ridiculously low for a solar system that will be used in hot climes.

 

[dwh]

I don't know what the chemical difference is between the Odyssey 31 and the Northstar 31, but it seems to be real. Northstar also told me that their batteries are not as sensitive to charging voltages as is the big Odyssey. I have had a handful of Odyssey G34s, and they don't seem to have this issue.

Yea, still a mystery at this point. My best guess so far is it has something to do with electrolyte stratification. Possibly related to the density/pressure of the lead/fiberglass sandwich.

I have two calls in to Morningstar about the Sunsaver Duo controller, but no response yet. Biggest question seems to be their operating temperature range for the controller, stated max at 113F. That seems ridiculously low for a solar system that will be used in hot climes.

The Duo has temp compensation. If using the built in ambient temp sensor, it needs to be installed near the battery. But if that's too hot, then it can also use a remote battery temp sensor (optional, not included), so the Duo can be mounted somewhere cooler.

And batteries have issues with heat anyway. If you look at the charge specs for Optima, they say no current limit - as long as the battery temp doesn't exceed 125F.

https://www.optimabatteries.com/en-us/support/charging/charging-tips


The real question, is if you use the meterbus adapter (optional, not included) to program the set points, how high can you set them? High enough for the Odyssey? I don't recall.

 

[comptiger5000]

Ah, so it's the size/capacity issue that results in shorter life, not the fact that they are using FLA.

Keep in mind, AGMs sometimes handle high discharge rates (like winching) better than FLAs do, especially if the FLA isn't a starting battery (in which case it shouldn't be discharged more than a little bit).

 

[Ducky's Dad]

the Duo can be mounted somewhere cooler.

When the truck is parked in the AZ desert in August or September, there is no place cooler. I have personally recorded ambient temps in the shade at 128F, and cabin/shell interior temps at 185F after being parked for a few hours. Truck is white. Odyssey is in the engine compartment and Optimas are under the cab, so I'll probably put remote temp sensors on all three. The PW has a built in factory temp sensor in the bottom of the starting battery box, but I suspect that is there because of the potential for extremely high discharge during winching operations.

If you look at the charge specs for Optima, they say no current limit

IDK, but Optima tech support told me in August of 2015 that if I used my Odyssey (Schumacher) 40amp/three bank charger/conditioner on their batteries, it would damage the batteries. The charging specs you linked state 10amp max for chargers on both G34 and G31. Their "no current limit" statement is only for cyclic applications, but they also state no max amperage for alternators. Confusing? Sure.

 

[dwh]

Not sure, but I don't think you can use more than one RBTS (remote battery temp sensor) with the Duo.

Cyclic is house battery use. Drain/recharge regularly. And yea, they say 10a max on a charger, but sell a 12a charger.

 

[dwh]

Keep in mind, AGMs sometimes handle high discharge rates (like winching) better than FLAs do, especially if the FLA isn't a starting battery (in which case it shouldn't be discharged more than a little bit).

Sometimes. Unfortunately, it can be a pain to find out the "maximum continuous discharge current". A lot of manufacturers don't list it in the spec sheets.

 

[Ducky's Dad]

Cyclic is house battery use. Drain/recharge regularly

.
True. The Optimas are primarily house batteries to support the fridge (Indel B 50) on trips, but I can also switch one or both of them into the system for winching or starting duty.

Did speak with Morningstar tech support a while ago about the 113F ambient max for the Duo controller. Tech not sure what the failure mode would be in extremely high temps, but could be anything from de-rating the current to melting the epoxy potting. Tech is looking for a copy of their de-rating curve and checking with their engineering department for additional info, but said they have various controllers installed in some pretty hot places and they continue to work. We discussed cooling fans and insulation around the controller, but those will just trap heat or move hot air once the cab heats up, so not ideal for prolonged stays in the sun. Tech thinks the best case is that the 25amp controller will not be too stressed by a 100-160 watt panel array at 5.5-8.5 amp max current because there will be enough margin. Advised fusing everything at no more than 10 amps, just in case. Waiting for response from their engineering folks.

 

[Ducky's Dad]

Re OP's question:

I'm just wondering how these options would do for a dedicated solar setup to run the above mentioned items?

HandyBob likes Crown and Trojan FLA for deep cycle solar batteries.

CROWN BATTERIES: http://www.crownbattery.com/
Simply put, I believe this outfit to be the best battery manufacturer on the Planet. No, I don't know all of them, but let me tell you, I have personally had problems with several others and seen things that tell me just how bad most are.

I have owned batteries from six other different manufacturers and had problems with ALL of them. I have connected well over 100KW of Crown batteries with not one single failure in the past few years. That statement cannot be made about anybody else. Crown is as good as I say. Hell, it is even as good as they say.
Crown recently introduced a new line, Crown 1. This is what pushed me into posting this new blog entry. AGM's that are coming off of a new production line in Fremont Ohio, USA. They hired 25 new employees to run this new line. Here is a link to what their local newspaper had to say about this:

http://www.13abc.com/home/headlines...ozens-of-jobs-373283761.html?device=phone&c=y

I have not been a fan of AGM's unless you have access or ventilation issues and that will not change, but I suspect Crown 1 is the best AGM battery ever produced. True deep cycle with heavy plates for our needs in the alternative energy world. If you think sealed batteries are important to you, this is the thing. Not some experimental thing that is made in China and is not even recyclable. Do your research. You are in for a shock if you think that the expensive new things being pushed by the profit generators are green.

 

[Ducky's Dad]

Re the operating temperature of the Morningstar Sunsaver Duo, here is the response I received today from Morningstar Tech Support:

I had a discussion with Engineering about your proposed use of the Sunsaver Duo. As stated in the Datasheet the maximum ambient temperature for operation is 113F. This particular controller does not have a derate on the charging as it gets hotter. What this means is that the controller would charge at the maximum potential it could based on the supply from the solar input up to the 113F and then it would stop charging. The 113F value is based on maximum charge amperage of 25A. Since you would most likely be charging at lower amperages you would probably see charging at temperatures a bit higher than 113, but exactly how high we could not predict.

Since the controller shuts down the charging once the max temp is reached, the likelihood of the controller being damaged by higher temperatures is very small and highly unlikely. We feel you would be fine to proceed with this installation, knowing that your controller would not charge when it was at the hotter temps.

So, it should work except when I am out in the desert running the fridge, which is when I'd really like it to work. I'll probably try it, because even a few extra ah is better than none. The regular Sunsaver (single) is rated up to 140F, but to properly charge both battery banks I'd have to have two panels and two controllers and that quickly eliminates the simplicity I'm looking for, space considerations aside. But that may be my fallback plan if the Duo just does not cut it.

 

[dwh]

Re the operating temperature of the Morningstar Sunsaver Duo, here is the response I received today from Morningstar Tech Support:

So, it should work except when I am out in the desert running the fridge, which is when I'd really like it to work. I'll probably try it, because even a few extra ah is better than none. The regular Sunsaver (single) is rated up to 140F, but to properly charge both battery banks I'd have to have two panels and two controllers and that quickly eliminates the simplicity I'm looking for, space considerations aside. But that may be my fallback plan if the Duo just does not cut it.

Actually, you can connect two charge controllers to one solar panel/array. Years ago, Morningstar used to have a doc on their web site about how to do that.

Well hell...My Google-**** isthebest... Gimme a minute...

Here ya go...

[CAVEAT!: PWM ONLY! Don't even think about doing this with MPPT.]


http://support.morningstarcorp.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/07/SS3.APP_.Isobanks_1_Array.01.EN_.pdf

 

[Ducky's Dad]

Actually, you can connect two charge controllers to one solar panel/array. Years ago, Morningstar used to have a doc on their web site about how to do that.

Well hell...My Google-**** isthebest... Gimme a minute...

Here ya go...

[CAVEAT!: PWM ONLY! Don't even think about doing this with MPPT.]


http://support.morningstarcorp.com/w...ray.01.EN_.pdf

Well, isn't that interesting? I asked Morningstar about that exact scenario this morning, and the guy said no way. Maybe their techs aren't all that techy. Will investigate. Thanks.