New Raptor..Ram killer

MTVR

Well-known member
The thing I find most amazing about drag racing, is not what the average NHRA "consumer" finds most amazing. I could not care less about Top Fuel- I love Stockers, and the slower, the better.

For example, Marty Buth's '84 Mustang 4-cylinder auto-trans P/SA Stocker would dump most stock Hellkittens:

 

Explorerinil

Observer
The thing I find most amazing about drag racing, is not what the average NHRA "consumer" finds most amazing. I could not care less about Top Fuel- I love Stockers, and the slower, the better.

For example, Marty Buth's '84 Mustang 4-cylinder auto-trans P/SA Stocker would dump most stock Hellkittens:

What the point in comparing a heavily modified drag car to a stock engine that meets emission standards and come with a warranty?
 

MTVR

Well-known member
What the point in comparing a heavily modified drag car to a stock engine that meets emission standards and come with a warranty?

What do you mean by "heavily modified"?

It's a malaise-era 4-cylinder auto trans car, with a stock body at stock weight, stock suspension design, stock bore, stock stroke, stock displacement, stock compression ratio, stock block, stock crank, stock rods, stock pistons, stock cylinder head, stock valves, stock valve lift, stock intake manifold, stock throttle body, and no porting, originally rated at 145 horsepower.

If meeting emissions standards and having a factory warranty is the most important thing to you, you can get that from any new car...
 
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MTVR

Well-known member
The Hellkitten can't do this- heck, a stock Demon can't do this:


...and the Widowmaker meets emissions standards and comes with a full factory warranty...
 

MTVR

Well-known member
For an extra $100,000 that a good deal..

Actually, the cost of owning a Hellkitten is a LOT more than the cost of owning a Widowmaker- the Hellkitten will depreciate massively, just like any other consumer-grade domestic passenger car, but you would actually MAKE money owning a Widowmaker, because they will only appreciate. Previous generation (997) Widowmakers typically sell for half a million dollars on the secondary market.
 
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Grassland

Well-known member
These ideas don't sell well in America because over here a V6 Mustang is for teenage girls,

Meanwhile I want a cyclone V6 Mustang lol
Preferably an S550 but I'd take an S197
(Wife specifically said not allowed to buy a Mustang, period)
Full bolt on cars can run low 12s (probably gears too if it's 2.71)
Like, your grocery getter vanilla coupe NA on pump gas and bolt ons can do that, and reliably?
You have to do that, cams, etc at least to get the old 2v mod GT Mustangs to do that.

We are spoiled now. I'm not saying I wouldn't take more power, but ******** the base engines in things now aren't the slugs they were in the past and I'm not even 40 years old lol
 

MTVR

Well-known member
Here is a 3.9 liter (240 cubic inch) naturally-aspirated engine in a street car, that produces well over 800 horsepower on pump gas with no turbo, no supercharger, no nitrous, and no pistons:

 

MTVR

Well-known member
The 3.7 liter V6 Mustangs are an excellent performance value, and so is the current base model four cylinder.
 

Mike W.

Well-known member
Actually, the cost of owning a Hellkitten is a LOT more than the cost of owning a Widowmaker- the Hellkitten will depreciate massively, just like any other consumer-grade domestic passenger car, but you would actually MAKE money owning a Widowmaker, because they will only appreciate. Previous generation (997) Widowmakers typically sell for half a million dollars on the secondary market.
Actually I believe the discussion was about putting a Hellcat motor in a pickup..So when you can put a pop up tent, ARB fridge and a camp stove with a half ton of gear in a Widowmaker get back to me..
 

Hilldweller

SE Expedition Society
Did you talk math with them?

The stoichiometric ratio for nitromethane is about 1.7:1. That's why they back down the engine with a breaker bar before starting it- to avoid hydraulically locking up the engine.

I love racing math...
Grubby is from Oz; I could barely understand the bloke. But he did have a laptop and was setting up his own trip down the 1/4.

097.JPG


Kinda why I stopped modifying much under the hood a long time ago; just about everything sold anymore has totally adequate performance and if you really want to go faster it's generally cheaper to sell what you have and buy a faster vehicle than it is to try to shove more fast into the slow thing you have.

The tough part of all this is marketing adequacy. In Western language the word adequate carries negativity, even an air of poverty. A three out of five is failure. 2nd place is first loser. All you can eat is a dare.

I've tried to exercise the Scandinavian concept of lagom - you could google that word if you're not familiar or the summary is that enough is the right amount and more than enough is at minimum a waste. Eastern culture has a related concept of shibui which implies a balance of proportional strengths and limitations. These ideas don't sell well in America because over here a V6 Mustang is for teenage girls, GT86 needs a supercharger and the 46mm Bilsteins are for streets and parking lots you need $3500 Kings if you plan to go car camping overlanding a mile down an easy dirt road.

Since it's tough to sell shibui to Americans we get horsepower wars. I doubt we'll see many of these dynosaurs used for serious backcountry travel, just like AMG G-wagens they surely have the necessary hardware to cover substantial terrain but people don't buy them for that. You'll have a few folks with money buy them to go yee haw at the sand dunes but the people who have the funds to go beat up a truck that costs six digit money generally suffer a bit of A.D.D. from all the options money affords and wouldn't be suffering a quiet night under the stars if they could help it.

On the other side of that if you put the same development effort as a raptor/TRX/etc into fine tuning a vehicle to perform exceptionally well as a long term car camping overlanding daily driver you'd wind up with something that has like 200 horsepower and 29" tires with a whole bunch of "invisible" improvements like skidplates and recovery points and aux cooling/filtration on every lubricant and configurable interior parts.. the market would give you a combination of confused mooing and crickets chirping in return for your effort.

So we get what we deserve. A bunch of elevator music boring not-great-at-anything people mover CUV's that will get you to most developed campsites, the occasional exception like Wrangler and maybe the new Bronco, and big money showpieces whose tech development may help subsidize smaller incremental improvements in the more realistically priced vehicles we end up actually buying down here in the cheap seats.
Sorta why I drive a Tradesman. Nothing fancy, less to break.
Function is beauty; beauty is function.
 

Explorerinil

Observer
Actually, the cost of owning a Hellkitten is a LOT more than the cost of owning a Widowmaker- the Hellkitten will depreciate massively, just like any other consumer-grade domestic passenger car, but you would actually MAKE money owning a Widowmaker, because they will only appreciate. Previous generation (997) Widowmakers typically sell for half a million dollars on the secondary market.
You have made your point that you clearly do not like the FCA 6.2, and thanks for taking this thread way off topic.
 

Hilldweller

SE Expedition Society
Well that makes two of us, hardly a "market" :ROFLMAO:

If you and I agree that we'd like more products refined back to the right amount of functionality the tough sell here is how do you market this kind of refinement?

For example I believe climate control reached its pinnacle with the three physical knobs user interface. They work as fast as your hand moves, they indicate their status visually with the position of the knobs, their full functionality is available at the top level without diving into a menu tree, their complete functionality is understood immediately at first glance by users and there is no cognitive load associated with learning how to operate it. If I was tasked with designing a futuristic concept car with no expenses spared it would still have three-knob climate control for the same reason tires are still round like wagon wheels. It's the best shape for that kind of thing and it doesn't matter that we figured this out decades ago.
....
My 2020 Ram Classic's knobs.
And the lowest-tier radio sounds better than the "audio package" that was in Wrangler I had.

IMG_0001.JPG
 

Martinjmpr

Wiffleball Batter
For example I believe climate control reached its pinnacle with the three physical knobs user interface. They work as fast as your hand moves, they indicate their status visually with the position of the knobs, their full functionality is available at the top level without diving into a menu tree, their complete functionality is understood immediately at first glance by users and there is no cognitive load associated with learning how to operate it. If I was tasked with designing a futuristic concept car with no expenses spared it would still have three-knob climate control for the same reason tires are still round like wagon wheels. It's the best shape for that kind of thing and it doesn't matter that we figured this out decades ago.

Yeah, I'm with you on the HVAC controls. Both my Suburban and 4runner had a "climate control" button where you set the temperature and it relied on a thermostat and computer to do the rest (open/close vents and blend doors, adjust heat and AC.)

In THEORY that should be a perfect system. Set the temp to whatever you think is "comfortable" and the system will do the rest. Problem is, in an area as small as a car interior, there are so many variables and so many places where air gets in and out, that maintaining the "perfect" temperature is an exercise in futility. Even though the 'Burb had "dual climate controls" for the driver and front seat passenger, I was constantly fiddling with knobs and adjusting temps to keep the wife and I comfortable on extremely hot or cold days.

Even worse, the 'Burb had a noticeable "lag" in adjusting temp. So on a cold day (I parked the 'burb outside so if it was a cold night, the Burb was cold) I'd set the temp at 72 and - nothing. Then a minute later, I'd bump it up: 75, 77, 80. Eventually, after almost 5 minutes, the fan would start blasting. Same thing happened on hot days when I was trying to adjust the AC. I think it was because there was some kind of sensor that was trying to keep the fan from coming on until the air was actually hot or cold.

That's why I was glad when I got my XLT Ford that it has basic hot/cold, AC on/off, and "which vent do you want air to come out of" controls, with a simple knob for the fan. Simple and easy. If the wife says "I'd like more AC" I can do that, if she says "I'd like more heat" I can do that.
 

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