New Defender Rage/Hate Thread

[nickw]

Like was mentioned before....this debacle could have been avoided if 1 single person with common sense had spoken up at the preliminary meetings on this vehicle and pleaded to "not sully the Defender name and image"

What makes this new, rebodied D5, a 'Defender'?

Those marketing vids are cool and all, but most any new SUV with AT tires can do most if it, especially if you're not concerned with breakage, like photographers.

That's silly.....It's a modern take on the lineage....how is it any different than "Landcruiser"? Should Toyota have stopped with the LC name after the 25 or 40 and called it something different after that? You could have (at the time) made the argument that the FJ55 isn't a "real" LC based on how much it differed from the previous designs and was much more road/family truckster/station wagon focused.

For that matter, why keep the Patrol, GWagen, Wrangler, Silverado names?

In the case of this Defender, it's more capable than the previous generation and it's the same body style....seems like it's every bit, if not MORE worthy of the name as any of the other examples out there, including Landcruiser....

 

[JeepColorado]

After being shut down twice by moderators there is still enough dislike of the Defender to reach 100 pages; just sayin!

 

[XJLI]

WE DID IT GUYS!!

 

[JeepColorado]

WE DID IT GUYS!!

View attachment 583598

It's a real accomplishment given all of the LR Bias that exists around here. The Defender joins the rare air of cars that were hated upon arrival- the Ford Pinto and Pontiac Aztek and later editions of the Hummer come to mind of those vehicles that will join the dustbin of history- only to be remembered later as a cautionary tale for automotive companies or the punchline of a joke for enthusiasts.

 

[nickw]

It's a real accomplishment given all of the LR Bias that exists around here. The Defender joins the rare air of cars that were hated upon arrival- the Ford Pinto and Pontiac Aztek and later editions of the Hummer come to mind of those vehicles that will join the dustbin of history- only to be remembered later as a cautionary tale for automotive companies or the punchline of a joke for enthusiasts.

I'm guessing it's probably going to go the way the LR3/LR4 and Landcruiser 100/200 have went...all the delicate flowers throwing rocks and disliking them initially, calling out the worthless IFS and/or IRS, knee jerk reactions based on their narrow field of view, regurgitation of long held beliefs based down by the 'old timers' or simple lack of knowledge....only to realize a few years later, ok, maybe they were on to something....more capable, easier to drive, better MPG and yeah, being comfortable is a good thing....

I'll never forget when the LC100 came out, guys were up in arms, lots of jokes, lots of the same comments here about it not being a 'real' LC.....well, it's been one of, if not the most popular, reliable and well sorted LC platform of all times....

 

[JeepColorado]

I'm guessing it's probably going to go the way the LR3/LR4 and Landcruiser 100/200 have went...all the delicate flowers throwing rocks and disliking them initially, calling out the worthless IFS and/or IRS, knee jerk reactions based on their narrow field of view, regurgitation of long held beliefs based down by the 'old timers' or simple lack of knowledge....only to realize a few years later, ok, maybe they were on to something....more capable, easier to drive, better MPG and yeah, being comfortable is a good thing....

I'll never forget when the LC100 came out, guys were up in arms, lots of jokes, lots of the same comments here about it not being a 'real' LC.....well, it's been one of, if not the most popular, reliable and well sorted LC platform of all times....

If you mean the way of the LR3/4 to say that you can pick them up dirt cheap because while there is some, there's not significant aftermarket support and the secondary market doesn't trust them- yes, I'd agree, it probably will. I think it'll retain a little more resale than those- the name alone should be good for a bump in value.

 

[EricTyrrell]

I'm guessing it's probably going to go the way the LR3/LR4 and Landcruiser 100/200 have went...

There was no common direction. Lr3/4 went the boring and unreliable direction, 100 the boring but competent direction, and 200 the boring, rare, and too expensive to be practical direction. Craigslist tells the story of each. The most important "direction" is 4Runner, Wranger, and Tacoma taking over the market.

 

[EricTyrrell]

That's silly.....It's a modern take on the lineage....how is it any different than "Landcruiser"? Should Toyota have stopped with the LC name after the 25 or 40 and called it something different after that? You could have (at the time) made the argument that the FJ55 isn't a "real" LC based on how much it differed from the previous designs and was much more road/family truckster/station wagon focused.

For that matter, why keep the Patrol, GWagen, Wrangler, Silverado names?

In the case of this Defender, it's more capable than the previous generation and it's the same body style....seems like it's every bit, if not MORE worthy of the name as any of the other examples out there, including Landcruiser....

It's the "take" of a megalomaniac art collector who hates offroading. LC was split early on into three lines: heavy duty, light duty, and wagon. 50 series was the first in the new wagon line. Few people would care to debate it wearing the LC name, since the original (heavy duty) line continued production, evolving into the 70-series.

Gwagen and Wrangler bear striking resemblance in form and function to the originals. Why change the names?

Wrangler is more capable too and far more similar in body style, but that doesn't make it a Defender.

 

[REDROVER]

How do you know it’s more capable than the old defender?
have your driven one across outback personally?
Old defender proved to be capable for the passed 50 years,
This thing is not out yet properly and people like you Are already spreading the fake news of what’s on paper.

 

[nickw]

There was no common direction. Lr3/4 went the boring and unreliable direction, 100 the boring but competent direction, and 200 the boring, rare, and too expensive to be practical direction. Craigslist tells the story of each. The most important "direction" is 4Runner, Wranger, and Tacoma taking over the market.

What is your point?

If you are looking for whats trendy and solely resale value based, CL can be a good resource....absolutely does not = relevance to this discussion. The RR Classics were cheap a few years back...good luck now. Same for the 80 series, they were affordable for several years in the early 2000's.....I looked at several in 05ish, mid 100k miles, F/R lockers, great shape, easy sub $6-8k that you couldn't touch for $15k now.

 

[onemanarmy]

That's silly.....It's a modern take on the lineage....how is it any different than "Landcruiser"? Should Toyota have stopped with the LC name after the 25 or 40 and called it something different after that? You could have (at the time) made the argument that the FJ55 isn't a "real" LC based on how much it differed from the previous designs and was much more road/family truckster/station wagon focused.

For that matter, why keep the Patrol, GWagen, Wrangler, Silverado names?

In the case of this Defender, it's more capable than the previous generation and it's the same body style....seems like it's every bit, if not MORE worthy of the name as any of the other examples out there, including Landcruiser....

The FJ55 and FJ60 shared the same heavy duty running gear as the FJ40. They were just a bit longer, that's it. That lineage holds up. It's not just the body shape that makes up an entire vehicle.
I don't agree with the 100 and 200 being called land cruisers....but at least Toyota offers more stripped down, rugged, utilitarian optioned 100 and 200s around the world. Also, yes, the 70 series keeps the dream alive.

Why keep the Wrangler nameplate? Easy...the new Wrangler is obviously a wrangler, even to non car folk. Removable top and doors, solid axles, manual trans....on and on. Does it suffer from too much tech and 'softening'? Yes. But they kept true to their roots, as much as the current regs allow.

The Defender did not.

Sent from my Moto G (4) using Tapatalk

 

[nickw]

It's the "take" of a megalomaniac art collector who hates offroading. LC was split early on into three lines: heavy duty, light duty, and wagon. 50 series was the first in the new wagon line. Few people would care to debate it wearing the LC name, since the original (heavy duty) line continued production, evolving into the 70-series.

Gwagen and Wrangler bear striking resemblance in form and function to the originals. Why change the names?

Wrangler is more capable too and far more similar in body style, but that doesn't make it a Defender.

Speaking of 70 series, you mean like the LJ variant of the 70 series? Still caries the "Landcruiser" badge and essentially built on a Hilux platform. What about the "Landcruiser" Prados....Toyota kept the LC name.

Gwagen went from manual Tcase, simple diesel engine with SFA to IFS, big HP gas engines and all the flippin doodads you can imagine, still a "Gwagen".

Toyota Hilux followed the same Trajectory, SFA, simple diesel engines, manual everything....to the Hiluxes we see today which are a far cry from the originals.

There are many more.

The new Defender is no different from the above examples and is more deserving than some of them. It has maintained or increased Payload capacity, towing capacity, ground clearance, offroad angles, overall capability and of course general body styling.

The only reason the snowflakes are upset is LR did this is one fell swoop vs iterative updates....

 

[nickw]

The FJ55 and FJ60 shared the same heavy duty running gear as the FJ40. They were just a bit longer, that's it. That lineage holds up. It's not just the body shape that makes up an entire vehicle.
I don't agree with the 100 and 200 being called land cruisers....but at least Toyota offers more stripped down, rugged, utilitarian optioned 100 and 200s around the world. Also, yes, the 70 series keeps the dream alive.

Why keep the Wrangler nameplate? Easy...the new Wrangler is obviously a wrangler, even to non car folk. Removable top and doors, solid axles, manual trans....on and on. Does it suffer from too much tech and 'softening'? Yes. But they kept true to their roots, as much as the current regs allow.

The Defender did not.

Sent from my Moto G (4) using Tapatalk

I was just playing devils advocate as I don't have a problem with the Landcruiser name....but using your point the 55's don't resemble the 40's and per your Wrangler example, is not 'obviously' a Landcruiser as folks new the name in the 1960's...it changed.

It's sounds like you are in the solid axle camp defining lineage, in which case, the LJ variant of the 70 series should be concerning to you since it's nothing like the 'real' H/F heavy duty 70's "Landcruisers".

 

[EricTyrrell]

Speaking of 70 series, you mean like the LJ variant of the 70 series? Still caries the "Landcruiser" badge and essentially built on a Hilux platform. What about the "Landcruiser" Prados....Toyota kept the LC name.

Gwagen went from manual Tcase, simple diesel engine with SFA to IFS, big HP gas engines and all the flippin doodads you can imagine, still a "Gwagen".

Toyota Hilux followed the same Trajectory, SFA, simple diesel engines, manual everything....to the Hiluxes we see today which are a far cry from the originals.

There are many more.

All your examples either still offer the original line, or despite their differences, are still far more similar to the original than the fashion Defender.

It has maintained or increased Payload capacity, towing capacity, ground clearance, offroad angles, overall capability and of course general body styling.

Again, so are several new vehicles, yet none of them are a Defender. The right stats are required, but obviously do not make a Defender in entirety.

The only reason the snowflakes are upset is LR did this is one fell swoop vs iterative updates....

There we have it again, the inane idea that I-dont-like-offroad McGovern's "take" was the Defender's destiny, it's final form, that this is what it would have evolved into if there had been more iterations. No, it's a joke no matter how it got here. It was never prophesied that this is what it had to be. The Discovery platform went through several iterations yet still devolved into its current abomination. The reason people don't like it, is because it simply has no similarity to the original. It's as much a Defender as a Wrangler with the badges swapped. Maybe less.

 

[EricTyrrell]

I was just playing devils advocate as I don't have a problem with the Landcruiser name....but using your point the 55's don't resemble the 40's and per your Wrangler example, is not 'obviously' a Landcruiser as folks new the name in the 1960's...it changed.

Again, the 50 series was an additional line, not a replacement for the 40/70 series which continued on.