New Defender Rage/Hate Thread

[nickw]

You totally missed the point.

I was referring to availability of low profile tire in provincial areas.
Not the LR brand.





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I don't think I missed the point....this rig is plenty capable offroad with it's OEM tires. That is very different that parts availability in the middle of Africa (not sure how we got there) which is going to plague ANY modern vehicle short of a LC70.

 

[nickw]

The "you don't want technology" people on here who say that anyone who wants the Defender to be rugged long for the stone ages are advancing a straw man argument. There's nothing wrong with leveraging technology- what's exciting is when a company keeps incorporating new technology into a platform that is firmly rooted in the original soul of the vehicle- what made it great in the first place. And I don't mean staying rooted in it's soul in a superficial, appearance is all that matters, fake diamond-plate sticker kind of a way that adorns the hood of the current Pretender. I mean in a current Wrangler or G-Wagon way- both of those companies- one a high-volume entry level- to medium price point 4x4 company whose vehicle today still passes more than a striking resemblance to the original from 70 years ago all the way to as luxury as you can afford G-Wagon. Both of them showed LR how to do it, but Gerry and his team of fashion designers couldn't help themselves so we ended up where we are. I can't wait for the LC 300 to come up and provide further proof of how LR swung and missed. All the Defender had to do was be at least as capable as a Wrangler, it's not, be at least as reliable as a Toyota, that'd be a first, or as retro-modern as a G-Wagon- and I'd see a place for it- a niche it could carve out to say here's my piece of the market. It hasn't done that- The Defender didn't have to be all of those things, any one of them would have given legitimacy and it appears to have fallen in all categories. The world didn't need another decently capable, rides nice, nod to 4x4s that's basically a rugged cross-over. Once the Bronco comes out, the new LC 300 and what that will mean for the Lexus GX- all come on stage- the Defender sinks further and further into the oblivion of mediocrity no different than the Discovery did.

It offers tangible benefits over all the vehicles you listed in many ways offroad and onroad.

For one,iIt has significantly more Payload than the Jeep.

 

[EricTyrrell]

For one,iIt has significantly more Payload than the Jeep.

That's always been an advantage, but after parroting the same stat (and others) for years, it gets few excited, and ultimately doesn't sell. It needs to maintain that advantage, but there's so much more it needed beyond stats to gain the interest of buyers.

 

[nickw]

That's always been an advantage, but after parroting the same stat (and others) for years, it gets few excited, and ultimately doesn't sell. It needs to maintain that advantage, but there's so much more it needed beyond stats to gain the interest of buyers.

So doesn't that hint that LR wanted this to be a solid expedition platform more than the mall crawler / creampuff that folks seem to be calling it?

They focused on making it look good with a nod to the old defender (arguable, fair) but like they have been preaching, it has very strong underpinnings of a solid expo / offroad platform. Load capacity, which is a KEY for expedition use, is much higher than many other vehicles including the LC200, Gwagen and Jeep. Same for ground clearance. Water fording ability, which I less useful, but at least considered.

 

[EricTyrrell]

So doesn't that hint that LR wanted this to be a solid expedition platform more than the mall crawler / creampuff that folks seem to be calling it?

I think the engineers did. However, the design dept is running the show. They wanted something that slotted into the existing lineup and fit their vision of utilitarian, which for a bunch of people who jerk off over austere Apple design principals and London chic vehicle aesthetics, is very different than our ideas of utilitarian. There was an article a while back that highlighted how the engineers had wanted to include longer high-travel suspension for obvious reason, but ultimately were shot down.

They focused on making it look good with a nod to the old defender (arguable, fair) but like they have been preaching, it has very strong underpinnings of a solid expo / offroad platform. Load capacity, which is a KEY for expedition use, is much higher than many other vehicles including the LC200, Gwagen and Jeep. Same for ground clearance. Water fording ability, which I less useful, but at least considered.

If it's reliable, and riding on 18s, it'll be a great NA overland platform. Globally, I see parts, tires, and service being significant challenges. As an offroader, it may be very capable, but its design, reliability perception, cost, and suspension will deter offroaders from adopting it in great numbers. I think it'll be successful with the same crowd who buy G-Wagens, LC200s, and high-trim Jeeps.

 

[nickw]

I think the engineers did. However, the design dept is running the show. They wanted something that slotted into the existing lineup and fit their vision of utilitarian, which for a bunch of people who jerk off over austere Apple design principals and London chic vehicle aesthetics, is very different than our ideas of utilitarian. There was an article a while back that highlighted how the engineers had wanted to include longer high-travel suspension for obvious reason, but ultimately were shot down.



If it's reliable, and riding on 18s, it'll be a great NA overland platform. Globally, I see parts, tires, and service being significant challenges. As an offroader, it may be very capable, but its design, reliability perception, cost, and suspension will deter offroaders from adopting it in great numbers. I think it'll be successful with the same crowd who buy G-Wagens, LC200s, and high-trim Jeeps.

Send me a link to that article about high-travel suspension - it's pretty spectacular as is.....

I think that is what LR is aiming for, NA and EU overland platform. Doesn't mean somebody from France couldn't jump over to Morocco and spend a few weeks in N Africa or somebody from RSA couldn't pop over to neighboring countries for a few weeks either....then come home and drive to work the rest of the year. It won't be the beat up, bailing wire, 55 gallon drum gas tank on the rear seat with a hole cut in the roof for the .50 gun rig you see being used by a warlord.....but it doesn't have to be to be a good platform for the rest of us.

 

[EricTyrrell]

Send me a link to that article about high-travel suspension - it's pretty spectacular as is.....

You're Going to Love the 2020 Land Rover Defender 110—Here's Why

By modern SUV standards the Defender feels relatively soft and plush, and it rolls through corners. But there’s a majestic grace to it all.

www.motortrend.com

From photos underneath, and part #s observed, it appears it rides on the same geometry and control-arms as the D5. It's a missed opportunity to really demonstrate the potential off IS offroad and mitigate comments on how they appear to teeter-over nervously in cross-axle scenarios as IS vehicles tend to.

 

[nickw]

You're Going to Love the 2020 Land Rover Defender 110—Here's Why

By modern SUV standards the Defender feels relatively soft and plush, and it rolls through corners. But there’s a majestic grace to it all.

www.motortrend.com

From photos underneath, and part #s observed, it appears it rides on the same geometry and control-arms as the D5. It's a missed opportunity to really demonstrate the potential off IS offroad and mitigate comments on how they appear to teeter-over nervously in cross-axle scenarios as IS vehicles tend to.

Thanks for sharing. Yeah, the comments points to compromise off vs on road....

It does have airbags which, from my limited understanding, have the ability to replicate a solid axle by adjusting to limit the amount of that teetering effect you point out. With that said though, IFS/IRS do have many advantages offroad....

 

[Semiquixotic]

The more I read this thread, the more I come to realize that it wouldn't exist if they would have named it ANYTHING other than Defender.

 

[Todd n Natalie]

The more I read this thread, the more I come to realize that it wouldn't exist if they would have named it ANYTHING other than Defender.

The thread or the vehicle?

 

[DieselRanger]

You're Going to Love the 2020 Land Rover Defender 110—Here's Why

By modern SUV standards the Defender feels relatively soft and plush, and it rolls through corners. But there’s a majestic grace to it all.

www.motortrend.com

From photos underneath, and part #s observed, it appears it rides on the same geometry and control-arms as the D5. It's a missed opportunity to really demonstrate the potential off IS offroad and mitigate comments on how they appear to teeter-over nervously in cross-axle scenarios as IS vehicles tend to.

There's a new system embedded within it, which cross-links the airbags for additional leveling and, as others have pointed out, the ability to replicate performance of a solid axle. Additionally, the system has an extra reserve of negative travel even at full Extended ride height, so it's a little more capable than the D5.

 

[DieselRanger]

I do blame the gov't for most of the countries ills, not getting cool cars is at the top of that list.
I do know that CAFE plays a huge part. Fine, give me turbo 4.....but why are they using engines different from the Disco? That can't be a cheap decision. Manual hubs also help MPG and overall wear and tear on drivetrain.....longevity and serviceability in mind.
I do know what goes into getting a vehicle to market. I do know that most, not all, are built to world standards now, so there aren't 5 different versions of a ford focus coming off the same line. The old way adds complexity and cost. Just as we finally got the 'world' Ranger.
JLR sells less vehicles per year than GM, but they also have way less overhead, can be more agile, and can keep a finger on the pulse of the market and suppliers easier.

Yes, I understand that the take rate of manual cars in general is very low %, but other makers find a way to offer it AS AN OPTION.....especially when its in a vehicle when history and pedigree demands (mustang, wrangler, rumor even the Bronco will get one, mini, tacoma, miata, civic, wrx, accord, rumor for the Supra, 911, Hilux and Land Cruiser, etc)
They don't have to engineer a new trans, just use an off the shelf one from a supplier. Create an adapter, driveshafts, interior trim, some computer coding, and roll on. A manual trans and/or manual T case won't make a vehicle fail crash testing. If they can hire someone ( a team...big $$$) to code in all the terrain choices and the ability to recognize a street sign, making a manual trans work is childs play. Someone had to 'engineer' and design that fancy tire cover. A cloth/vinyl one would have done the same job, for far less $. You not gonna buy one if they didn't offer a hard plastic tire cover?

Fine, no manual trans for the new defender. I get it, to a point. A case can be made either way.
Still, I do blame JLR for straying so far from the idea, the image, the pedigree of the Defender (and series) nameplate. The series and Defender were the workhorses....tough, reliable (for a british product), spartan, configurable, slim and trim, no nonsense. Nothing you didn't need.
Yes, the new truck ticks some boxes....approach angles, water fording, rear spare tire, rear styling, ability to add winch, the rear roof windows, and steel wheels.
However, as minor as it may be, having integrated headlights and taillights, digital multi zone climate control, IFS/IRS, plastic cladding, everything integrated into a screen, air suspension, even OFFERING 'appearance packages' (the defender is not about dressing up...black wheel lug nuts for $500?!), not offering removable doors or roof (i can dream) fails to live up to the Defender heritage. All that stuff is already offered in ALL the other cars on the road.
Not all auto makers have the luxury of having such storied nameplates to feed from and keep going. JLR was given the opportunity and made more of the same, when we could have had SO MUCH. That is my hate.

The Discovery was designed in the Ford years; the supply contract for the Si6 is up, and the contract for the Td6 Lion engine is about to expire as well, hence the need to develop the Ingenium line. The Ingeniums have/are being offered in non-NAS spec D5s starting with MY2019, the Td4 / D240 may have been offered in 2018...yes, people pull caravans in the D5 with a 240hp turbodiesel 4 cylinder.

Rumor has it the P400 MHEV will show up in the D5 in 2021 or 2022 to replace the Si6, and Land Rover is rumored to be working on a D300 MHEV diesel with the kind of specs they used to have in their TDV8 engine they offered in the UK/EU RRS and Range Rover. Unfortunately it's unlikely we'll see it here in the US in any LR vehicle.

You can not like the Defender for its looks and other design choices all you want. That is entirely subjective. I for one think it actually looks pretty good. And the D5 looks way better in person than it does in pictures - when I first saw pictures, I thought it looked like a dung beetle, but it has absolutely grown on me.

 

[DorB]

I don't think I missed the point....this rig is plenty capable offroad with it's OEM tires. That is very different that parts availability in the middle of Africa (not sure how we got there) which is going to plague ANY modern vehicle short of a LC70.

Other platforms are not so limited by caliper size, and over sensor oriented suspension and can change the tires size.

 

[nickw]

Other platforms are not so limited by caliper size, and over sensor oriented suspension and can change the tires size.

What makes you think you can't change tire size? Guys do it all the time with modern LR's....

To be accurate, it's more to do with rotor size....that's the drawback of having a good braking system.

There are still several unknowns.....but the rigs are available with 18" wheels, the higher spec ones look to come with 19's, but that is not to say 18's won't fit. They may up-size the rotors on the higher spec rigs. With that said, my SQ5 was only available with 19, 20 and 21's OEM but I was able to fit 18" winters....which very well may be the case with the new Defender too.

 

[JeepColorado]

The Defender proves it's off-road worthiness!!!..A lot of off-camber situations, deep water and mud!!!

I'm kidding- the off-camber situations are all on concrete, the deep water is in a pit with a gravel bottom, although there is one really legitimate muddy hill- I'll let you guess how the Defender does