New Defender Rage/Hate Thread

[DieselRanger]

To dismiss LRs reliability ranking as mostly infotainment based is not being candid about it's issues with complex suspension systems- one of the supposed key advantages of the new Defender

What issues are they having with complex suspension systems? I would expect a high number of recalls and warranty claims but I can find no evidence of widespread issues on vehicles made since 2012 outside normal wear and tear on high mileage vehicles.

Please provide examples.

 

[JeepColorado]

What issues are they having with complex suspension systems? I would expect a high number of recalls and warranty claims but I can find no evidence of widespread issues on vehicles made since 2012 outside normal wear and tear on high mileage vehicles.

Please provide examples.

Wouldn't the warranty claims and recalls you seem to want to exclude from the conversation be the examples?

 

[DieselRanger]

Wouldn't the warranty claims and recalls you seem to want to exclude from the conversation be the examples?

Where are they? They are not being reported in consumer publications. The problem reports for JLR vehicles are overwhelmingly infotainment related.

 

[JeepColorado]

Where are they? They are not being reported in consumer publications. The problem reports for JLR vehicles are overwhelmingly infotainment related.

Warranty Direct is a company that provides warranty coverage once your factory warranty has expired- per their analysis in 2017 of cars over the previous 4 years LR had the highest rate of post-warranty claims. The highest claim category overall for cars was suspension at 21% of claims with Electronic issues coming in a very close second. Land Rover was not first, that was Bentley, but it was 2nd place in the highest average costs of repairs. So not only do you go to the shop more often, but it costs $ once you are there.

Land Rover has highest rate of post warranty claims

Land Rover had the largest number of authorised claims for four year old vehicles, according to analysis of Warranty Direct customers over three years. Jag

www.motortrader.com

Land Rover, Jaguar and Vauxhall models have most claims AFTER their warranty

CAR owners have been left footing the bill for thousands of pounds worth of repairs after manufacturer warranties expire. Most new cars come with three years of cover but latest figures reveal the …

www.thesun.co.uk

Should you suggest that this is just a European issue-

RepairPal is a US based company that acts as a referral service for repair shops- based on their data- LR avg repair bills are approx. 100% more than the avg car, they go to the shop almost twice as much and when they do go- it's 25% more severe- which sounds like more than a infotainment reset.

Severity
On average across all Land Rover models, 16% of repairs are considered severe. This compares to a probability of 12% for major issues across all models.

https://repairpal.com/reliability/land+rover

That fact that LR has more issues, more frequent issues, more expensive issues than most any other brand across most of the developed world is a fact- it's more than infotainment my friend!

 

[JeepColorado]

So, I've been pretty vocal about the possible concerns with the Land Rover Defender. I feel the need to let you all know that I highly respect what LR is doing with the Defender and I hope that doesn't get lost in my taking up the position of Devil's Advocate. It's incredible that that vehicle exists in the world of International Corporations. It shows an incredible dedication to building this pinnacle- brand-defining vehicle- and the truth is that vehicle is not some luxury mobile, but a truly dedicated off-roader.

I've also watched dozens of videos now of the Namibia trip- what an incredible adventure and absolutely AMAZING that a company would even put an event like that on. It's a real gamble with incredible consequences- the Defender catches a lot of flak already, could you imagine if one had actually broke down during that? Pictures of it sitting on the side of the trail would flood the internet. It's an awesome show of belief in their product that was risky and overall really paid off given the coverage!

If you read articles, including Scott's, I think it's entirely fair to say that the overall sentiment of people who've got the most experience in this world we love and whom have actually experienced the Defender is Cautious Optimism.

Cautious because the reality is that LR has had demonstrable issues with execution complicated further by the fact that they've chosen to lean into really sophisticated and by definition- complex systems.

Optimism because LR has clearly invested so heavily in making this a reliable and durable product. It's an as exciting product as I can ever recall filled with more potential of any vehicle I've seen. Even the Wrangler just needed to drive better really to impress- the off-road chops have never been questioned. The Defender needs to execute everything beautifully to work. Due to corporate neglect it needed to leap ahead 20+ years while staying grounded as much as possible in where it came from. No small feat from a design and purpose standpoint. The overall sentiment seems to indicate that it will do just that- be thoroughly Modern....Defender.

Things I love about it-
- That LR built it in the first place
- It is clearly much better than the Wrangler in payload and towing capacity- if I were going to tow a travel/camper trailer- this would be my choice. I'd give it 3 years to get the kinks worked out, but this would be the choice in my mind if it proved reliable. If Toyota knocks it out of the park with design on the LC 300 I could be persuaded, but if I had to lay money on what I'd do in 5 years- my bet would be on the Defender.
- It's got a more purposeful design than the LC 200- to me the LC, while great underneath has always suffered from side bloat. I actually went to test drive one and confused it with a Sequoia on the lot from a distance away- true story. The Defender has no such issues- it looks the business all the way around except for that unfortunate front-end- nothing that a great ARB Deluxe Sahara Bar wouldn't fix. ......Or something cool from Lucky 8 if you are reading!
- It's a phenomenal blend of capability, comfort and character- not often found these days

I truly hope it does well. If it's as reliable as @DieselRanger thinks it will be- I can assure you that in 3-5 years I'd be on a lot considering it. Cheers friends!

 

[DieselRanger]

I truly hope it does well. If it's as reliable as @DieselRanger thinks it will be- I can assure you that in 3-5 years I'd be on a lot considering it. Cheers friends!

I'm not making any guarantees or projections and have been quite clear in that. I'm simply replying to your hyperbolic concerns that Land Rover is an unreliable brand - in fact it's a brand that has had the farthest to go since its acquisition by Tata and has indeed made massive strides - in fact greater improvements than other luxury brands, objectively measured.

 

[DieselRanger]

That fact that LR has more issues, more frequent issues, more expensive issues than most any other brand across most of the developed world is a fact- it's more than infotainment my friend!

"Post warranty". Those are the operative words.

Post.

Warranty.

Per the article, four years old in 2016, reported in 2017 for both your citations - so let's be generous and say these were all 2012 models of the new platform, which would only have been the case in non-NAS specs. So your data is...dated.

Second, the article states that the most common complaint for all vehicles surveyed was axle and suspension problems - it does not break them down by brand. So that's 21% of all vehicle problems. Not Land Rover problems. Reading comprehension much?

Let's assume, however, for the sake of argument that the problems are of Land Rover's brand. 2012 was the first model year of a brand new platform in the brand; according to the articles, gearboxes were, at the time, the most expensive repairs, and "suspension and axle" were, at the time, the most common - but it DOES NOT state what parts of those components were most frequently claimed post-warranty. Since then Land Rover has moved to the same ZF 8-speed transmission used in almost every other luxury SUV in the world aside from the Japanese, who use Aisin, as well as some of the most powerful supercars in the world. Since then those claims have fallen to almost nothing. Got any more recent data on suspension and gearbox claims post warranty?

Go ahead and look. I'll wait. In the meantime, continue to avoid mentioning any of the myriad massive recalls of Jeep and Toyota 4x4's over the last five years including failed frame welds, transmissions that could catch on fire or fail, rear ends that could grenade, frames that were out of true on delivery to the point rear hatches would not close after just a few hundred miles, dashboards that ripple and crack, and issues such as debris left in the bellhousings and poorly placed gaskets from the factory that caused fluid leaks that required full replacement. But since those aren't Land Rover problems, I guess they don't count.

 

[JeepColorado]

"Post warranty". Those are the operative words.

Post.

Warranty.

Per the article, four years old in 2016, reported in 2017 for both your citations - so let's be generous and say these were all 2012 models of the new platform, which would only have been the case in non-NAS specs. So your data is...dated.

Second, the article states that the most common complaint for all vehicles surveyed was axle and suspension problems - it does not break them down by brand. So that's 21% of all vehicle problems. Not Land Rover problems. Reading comprehension much?

Let's assume, however, for the sake of argument that the problems are of Land Rover's brand. 2012 was the first model year of a brand new platform in the brand; according to the articles, gearboxes were, at the time, the most expensive repairs, and "suspension and axle" were, at the time, the most common - but it DOES NOT state what parts of those components were most frequently claimed post-warranty. Since then Land Rover has moved to the same ZF 8-speed transmission used in almost every other luxury SUV in the world aside from the Japanese, who use Aisin, as well as some of the most powerful supercars in the world. Since then those claims have fallen to almost nothing. Got any more recent data on suspension and gearbox claims post warranty?

Go ahead and look. I'll wait. In the meantime, continue to avoid mentioning any of the myriad massive recalls of Jeep and Toyota 4x4's over the last five years including failed frame welds, transmissions that could catch on fire or fail, rear ends that could grenade, frames that were out of true on delivery to the point rear hatches would not close after just a few hundred miles, dashboards that ripple and crack, and issues such as debris left in the bellhousings and poorly placed gaskets from the factory that caused fluid leaks that required full replacement. But since those aren't Land Rover problems, I guess they don't count.

Dated? haha,.,. you said since 2012. Let me get this right, you set the parameters- you said "I can find no evidence of widespread issues on vehicles made since 2012." I spend 5 minutes googling and produce reports from 2 different companies whose job it is to make risk analysis bets on cars based on data that both state that LR is in the bottom of reliability- that they've had to pay out post-warranty claims on them more often and for more $ than most any other vehicle. And now you move the goal post and say, we'll we need more recent data?

Yes, the research is for "all vehicles surveyed" as it particularly relates to the suspension issue- no need to insult my ability to read and understand. It is 21% of all vehicles- LR could be the reason that number is that high, maybe not, we don't know based off the data we have. I think it's an incredibly fair implication of the data. Here's what we do know without debate- they have the most claims of anyone and those claims are more "severe" as measured by costs than other car manufacturers according to 2 different organizations whose entire business model is based off of understanding these matters.

It's not on me to prove why I'm skeptical of LR- there isn't an objective person on the face of the planet who has spent any time in the automotive world who isn't aware of LR's well-earned reputation for spending time associating with tow trucks- it is on LR and all of it's apologists to defend it- you keep saying that it's purely infotainment- I'll be waiting to see your proof of that.

 

[Colin Hughes]

I've had 5 different LR's over 18-19 years; D1, P38, D2, D1 300TDi and LR3. Were they cheap to fix? Not normally but they were less than my wife's BMW and Mercedes she had over that time as well. None of them were really all that bad, except for the D2. I always bought them well out of warranty and with higher miles, I expected issues, but never once was I stranded on a trail. When the LR3 got really up in miles and was needing lots of preventive maintenance, I let it go for a Jeep Cherokee Trailhawk. That lasted about a year and a half. Even with 3 software updates, the transmission still wasn't right and Jeep had had over 5 years to get it perfect. I've got a 4Runner now. It isn't as powerful as the LR V8, the stereo isn't quite as good, the ride isn't quite as good but I'm hoping for the famous Toyota reliability, so far coming up on a year and only a couple of oil changes. I do enjoy driving it and it pulls my teardrop just fine. I have an old Disco I for fun. My brother went all in on a Jeep Rubicon. That lasted about a year or so too. Issues along with a piss poor ride on pavement, felt like you were going to lose your kidneys. He's in a Tacoma now. If I had the money, I would be very tempted to look at a Defender. Right now though I don't and the head is currently winning over the heart

 

[nickw]

Dated? haha,.,. you said since 2012. Let me get this right, you set the parameters- you said "I can find no evidence of widespread issues on vehicles made since 2012." I spend 5 minutes googling and produce reports from 2 different companies whose job it is to make risk analysis bets on cars based on data that both state that LR is in the bottom of reliability- that they've had to pay out post-warranty claims on them more often and for more $ than most any other vehicle. And now you move the goal post and say, we'll we need more recent data?

Yes, the research is for "all vehicles surveyed" as it particularly relates to the suspension issue- no need to insult my ability to read and understand. It is 21% of all vehicles- LR could be the reason that number is that high, maybe not, we don't know based off the data we have. I think it's an incredibly fair implication of the data. Here's what we do know without debate- they have the most claims of anyone and those claims are more "severe" as measured by costs than other car manufacturers according to 2 different organizations whose entire business model is based off of understanding these matters.

It's not on me to prove why I'm skeptical of LR- there isn't an objective person on the face of the planet who has spent any time in the automotive world who isn't aware of LR's well-earned reputation for spending time associating with tow trucks- it is on LR and all of it's apologists to defend it- you keep saying that it's purely infotainment- I'll be waiting to see your proof of that.

You need to get out more bud.

I think @Scott Brady summed it up well "....people overvalue reliability...". What level of reliability is needed? Is more better at the expense of drive-ability, features, comfort, etc? Reliability is a moving target that is getting better by the year. I think the point of comparing it with the LC100 is important, it points to rigs getting better OR points to how worthless the JDP rankings are. If the current Defenders get rated the same as the older LC100's your options are a) agree the current Defender is every bit as reliable as the older LC100 or b) the ranking are not statistically significant.

A few vehicles that come to mind that are not the epitome of reliability, even for their time, and been have been seen around the world, Africa, Sahara, etc:
1) Old Series and Defenders
2) Puegeot 504, all over Africa (the Hilux there before there was a Hilux)
3) Citroens 2CV's
4) VW vanagons/bugs

Any current rig would run circles around those from a reliability perspective.

 

[mpinco]

Not a perspective on the new Luxury Defender and applies to all Jaguar Land Rovers:

As predicted JLR is seeking 'significant' partnerships, maybe even a complete sale. SARS-2 and the global economic implostion/debt bubble popping will accelerate the trajectory.

Jaguar Land Rover owner to spin off cars unit to seek allies
Published
Mar 30, 2020

Tata Motors, the Indian owner of Jaguar Land Rover, plans to separate its cars business from trucks and buses, as the company seeks partners for a unit slammed by the coronavirus pandemic and a global shift to electric vehicles............

.........JLR, the British luxury carmaker, in January shelved plans to issue a US dollar bond after investors demanded too high an interest rate to compensate for the risk posed by the coronavirus, Bloomberg News reported in the same month.........."

The cost of rolling over debt / bonds has gone even higher as risk profiles have jumped to much higher levels. The upside is that in North America we may see a broader powertrain selection as JLR needs to increases sales and lower losses to convince potential partners JLR is a worthwhile ongoing company. The current Defender powertrain selection is very poor/ abysmal as too much emphasis has been put in EV.

 

[REDROVER]

It’s a shame
That you compare Land Rover product ( specifically a vehicle that is not even being sold yet to Toyota 100series.

Scots opinion is his opinion
World thinks it the other way around.

just a shame to compare Land Rover to Toyota Land Cruiser.
Average 100 series has 220.000 miles and still going extra strong and selling way more than junk Rover.
More than 80% of land rovers end up in the junkyard before they hit 120.000 miles

I can’t wait to see the crossover defender on top of the tow trucks, and it’s coming.
So you guys can keep it shut.

 

[Colin Hughes]

270K miles on it when it went to its next owner, original engine, never had to do head gaskets, only thing that ever required it going on a tow truck was when the starter died. Even then, I could have bump started it (5 speed) and driven it to the repair shop. It had much less rust (next to none) and a much cleaner interior than any of the high mileage 100 Series trucks I've seen for sale.
I don't know where all these sweeping generalizations come from - More than 80% of land rovers end up in the junkyard before they hit 120.000 miles - me thinks someone's hooked on the Fox "Fake News" channel. This thread definitely provides entertainment while I'm in self-isolation. Flame away lads!

 

[REDROVER]

Why didn’t you buy another Land Rover then ? There are plenty being given away for 5% of the cost of the original MSRP l
why buy 4 runner ?
May fake news is from Land Rover owners.

for every 250k miles land rover you show, I can give 5 examples how they died at 120k miles.

Now you show me land cruiser that end up in the junk yard with low miles ?

Let’s see the fake news

 

[REDROVER]

Let me refresh your memory about lovely discovery 2 that didn’t last 40,000 miles or let me refresh your memory about the classic range rovers disastrous quality or perhaps you forgot the P 38 or 2003 2004 Range Rover’s with terrible bmw motors.

Perhaps you also need to know vast majority of Southern California Land Rover club guys now drive different make up vehicles.