New Defender Rage/Hate Thread

EricTyrrell

Adventurer
In reality, what you have found are a few cars - many of them not road legal due to throwbacks to another time, and they're simply not good enough to be road legal in the US or the EU.
Wrong. Educate yourself. They're "not road legal" due to not being sold by the manufacturer in the US. If a vehicle has to be imported, it must be 25 years old. It has nothing to do with safety. You can import nearly any vehicle you want if it's 25 years old.

That should tell you something: They are keeping these around for the third world because they're cheaper. They don't have solid axles because "solid axles handles better" as he said.
Quote me, liar.

I have only said that solid axles are appropriate for some vehicles, because the advantages (low speed traction, serviceability, simplicity, cost, etc) outweigh their disadvantages (worse handling, weight, NVH, etc) in those specific applications. The Defender, being in the utility 4x4 market niche, is one such vehicle. <--- Disclaimer: This is not arguing "that unless you have a race car or a super fast car, solid axles is better than IS"
 

EricTyrrell

Adventurer
That Suzuki was only released earlier this year, so definitely still in production.

All GVM under 3500kg, so definitely car licence in the EU and Australia (car there is up to 4500kg), ie not a truck licence needed - not sure about USA:
  1. Suzuki Jimny (Road legal outside USA)
  2. Toyota Land Cruiser 70 series (Road legal outside USA)
  3. Mahindra Thar (Road legal outside USA)
  4. Nissan Patrol GU (South Africa, Developing and East Asian economies only - clicky https://www.nissan.co.za/vehicles/new/patrol-pick-up.html)
  5. UAZ Hunter (Road legal Outside USA) https://uaz.global/cars/suv/hunter
  6. UAZ Classic van (RL Outside USA) https://uaz.global/cars/commercial/classic
  7. Jeep Wrangler (duh)

So as you can see from that list, most of the developed world (hell, even developing world - the Lada Niva has been IFS and monocoque since introduction) has moved on from live axles, apart from a few heavy duty vehicles and doing things differently.
So nearly all the vehicles in the same market niche as the Defender are still using solid front axles.. <--- Disclaimer: This is not arguing "that unless you have a race car or a super fast car, solid axles is better than IS"
 

Pilat

Tossing ewoks on Titan
It is better, for most applications, because most applications are not utility/offroad. I've said this countless times in as many ways as possible for you. However, they solid axles exist in utility/offroad vehicles and will continue to. No obstacle course needed. Again, they continue to roam the roads as well as off-road without issue.



1. While cars can often mean "sedans, crossovers, and coupes" here, the terms cars and trucks are also often used interchangeably. They're both used to get a pint, drop the kids off, pick up groceries, etc. SUVs are just as large in volume, and sometimes even heavier. There's no difference in paperwork, taxation, or license to an owner. When someone asks who's "car" they're taking to the game, no one cares if it's got a bed in the back or not.
View attachment 552454
hmm..

2. We were going back and forth and your first request for cars I thought was kind of stupid, because no cars, as in "sedans, crossovers, and coupes", use solid axles. They shouldn't. I never said they should. It's a dumb question.

3. Later when you said this (I've quoted this before)..

.. I realized maybe you didn't want a list of "sedans" and this (see above) is what you wanted, so that's exactly what I gave you. There was no stipulation in your statement there about vehicles with beds, or that they still had to be in production.


Calm down man. What I quoted were your words. It sounded like you wanted such a list.


It does. No one says "lets take your Heavy Duty Truck to the market", they say "let's take your car to the market", and when it happens to be that "your car" is a Heavy Duty Truck, no one cares and you go to the damn market.


Dishonest. Quote me. I've been saying exactly the opposite consistently. How many times have I told you IS/air is appropriate for Range Rovers, for example? It's got to be nearly a dozen times. No wonder you're so worked up if that's somehow what you're getting out of what I'm saying. I could say "The ball is red", and you'd say "Stop being dishonest! You keep telling me the ball is blue!"


Already covered this many times. It tells me they are appropriate for those applications. However, a Defender is not in the category of "cheap slow cars to super cars". It is in the category of utility/offroad, where coincidentally much of its competition still uses solid axles, because they too are in the same niche where solid axles work well. <--- Disclaimer: This is not arguing "that unless you have a race car or a super fast car, solid axles is better than IS"


I've stated many times that IS has advantages. That is obviously one of them. However, (I've said the following before many times as well) it is not always necessary. Where a solid axle is used, it is because the issue of coupled wheels and unsprung weight are not a high priority. Those issues are high priorities on most vehicles, but not all. <--- Disclaimer: This is not arguing "that unless you have a race car or a super fast car, solid axles is better than IS"


I've told you over, and over... and over, that in the context of improving solid axles, it cannot be changed. You cannot decouple the wheels and keep a solid axle. Proof:



Again, I addressed this directly already. Proof:

Notice, I did not state you could "eliminate" unsprung suspension weight (which IS does not completely do either, although it does decouple), I said you could "reduce" it. Will it be enough of an improvement? That depends on the application. The intended market might not care (trucks and 4x4s), or they might demand further refinement to the point where IS is considered, which is what happened in the L322. <--- Disclaimer: This is not arguing "that unless you have a race car or a super fast car, solid axles is better than IS"
More lies and general dishonesty.
 

Pilat

Tossing ewoks on Titan
Wrong. Educate yourself. They're "not road legal" due to not being sold by the manufacturer in the US. If a vehicle has to be imported, it must be 25 years old. It has nothing to do with safety. You can import nearly any vehicle you want if it's 25 years old.


Quote me, liar.

I have only said that solid axles are appropriate for some vehicles, because the advantages (low speed traction, serviceability, simplicity, cost, etc) outweigh their disadvantages (worse handling, weight, NVH, etc) in those specific applications. The Defender, being in the utility 4x4 market niche, is one such vehicle. <--- Disclaimer: This is not arguing "that unless you have a race car or a super fast car, solid axles is better than IS"
And yet another set of lies from you, and yet another set where you move the goal posts. I'm done with you, your lies, and general dishonesty.
 

mpinco

Expedition Leader
........... If a vehicle has to be imported, it must be 25 years old. It has nothing to do with safety. You can import nearly any vehicle you want if it's 25 years old.........
Agreed. The collector car market is a good example. Once a vehicles reaches a certain age it can be imported/exported/etc and can be driven on any road in the US. There are no safety or emissions requirements. Then there is the kit vehicle market. An entire vehicle can be bought from parts, assembled and registered.
 

mpinco

Expedition Leader
As far as IS vs solid axles, there is a reason LR developed and productized cross-linked air suspension to emulate solid axles. IS is poor on uneven terrain as the one tire/suspension system lifts up over bumps but the frame/underside stay level. Works great for a car like ride but clearance suffers greatly. Solution? Emulation. So as I said if one of your operational profiles/sales features is off-road capability then both IS and cross-linked air suspension (emulation of coils) must be paired or you go with solid axles. If a manufacturer sells into the Luxury market then the additional cost of IS/cross-linked air suspension is packaged into the higher price. As noted by all, to include the press, Land Rover has moved up-market with all products.
 
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mpinco

Expedition Leader
A vehicle with solid axles can age gracefully and be upgraded easily. My IH Scout with solid axles had 400K miles on her and never needed axle service other than a u-joint. EAS will wear out and need significant maintenance/overhaul at some point that varies by useage/environment. In addition if you plan on upgrading the truck to other than factory rubber you may want to consider Schrader valves and spare plumbing. EAS on bump stops is no fun.
 

EricTyrrell

Adventurer
As far as IS vs solid axles, there is a reason LR developed and productized cross-linked air suspension to emulate solid axles. IS is poor on uneven terrain as the one tire/suspension system lifts up over bumps but the frame/underside stay level. Works great for a car like ride but clearance suffers greatly. Solution? Emulation. So as I said if one of your operational profiles/sales features is off-road capability then both IS and cross-linked air suspension (emulation of coils) must be paired or you go with solid axles. If a manufacturer sells into the Luxury market then the additional cost of IS/cross-linked air suspension is packaged into the higher price. As noted by all, to include the press, Land Rover has moved up-market with all products.
Well said.

1. The bilateral move upmarket has left a gap at the utility end. There is no longer a product that fills the slot that other manufacturers still serve. That product was the Defender. The new product fills the Discovery's former slot, doesn't fill the old Defender's slot, and therefor it is a Discovery in any meaningful way. The Defender is dead. What do adventurers and hard working folk buy now? There's no good answer for much of the world who enjoyed the Defender. I suspect many reluctant 4Runner, Bronco, and midsize truck purchases will occur.

2. The IS/Air combo is spectacular in many aspects. However, its complexity, serviceability, cost, articulation, and reliability are challenges. These compromises are acceptable for the luxury market, but not the utility 4x4 market. To take one out of Pilat's book; how do we address these issues? The solution exists already, and can be improved (not perfected), solid axles.

3. Land Rover is the last company you want, when far from civilizations's cradle, to be depending on to develop and deliver consistent quality with regards to critical suspension tech.
 

mpinco

Expedition Leader
A real world reference point - nephew, an engineer who works in the mining industry and has to travel onsite to different locations. The truck of choice by the company is Dodge with solid axles. They provide the utility and reliability over the varied terrain. The few GM trucks they do have, with IFS, wear out early and were phased out for high maintenance cost.
 

Red90

Adventurer
Or maybe they are comfortable successfully navigating 99.9% of trails, paths, and obstacles out there....
You prove my point perfectly. It is not 99.9. It is more in the area of 50%. Without suitable experience you just would not know this. In any case you will not agree ever because you really can’t believe that your experience is that limited.
 

ricardo

Observer
I think the New Defender is the best 4x4 ever made on the face of the earth, and will forever be better than any other 4x4 at everything. It can literally do anything and go anywhere.

Discuss.
I'm interested in the brand of Kool aid that you are drinking and if you have a wholesale connection...
 

Peter_n_Margaret

Adventurer
The Defender is dead. What do adventurers and hard working folk buy now? There's no good answer for much of the world who enjoyed the Defender.
In Australia it is (and always in the last 50 years, was) the Landcruiser (now 79 series).
It probably outsells #2 in the market by 10 to 1, or more, and mining companies are big buyers, followed by the bush adventurers.
They have not always necessarily been the best 4WD in that class (many would argue that the Nissan Patrol 4.2L diesel was better), but sheer numbers in the bush mean that every local workshop knows how to fix one and the local country store probably has a set of springs waiting for a customer to wander in from the bush. That counts for a lot.
Personally, I chose an older vehicle that is simple and that I can fix in the bush. The engine has one wire that makes it go or stop, and I know where it is :) :)
"Creep home mode" or some other electronic failure is not a good scene 500km or more from the nearest town. But maybe that is not an issue in the USA as you probably struggle to get that remote?
Cheers,
Peter
OKA196 motorhome
 

REDROVER

Explorer
Shock of an older defender broke yesterday in Death Valley, it took less than 300 seconds to remove and keep going,
Try that in your LR4 or Lr3 or any stupid Land Rover with air suspension.
keep your bulshit new Land Rover to yourself,
Screw the new defender and the stupid engineers behind it.
stop kissing land rovers ass. They messed up.
Where are you all keyboard warriors and there mall crawling Land Rover when we do 1000 mine desert drive ? You guys scared ?
Come join the real land rovers.


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