New Defender Rage/Hate Thread

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JeepColorado

Well-known member
Wow. That's going to put a dent in everyone else's demand models.

It's crazy- no doubt there will be some attrition, but even if it's as high as say 30%- that's still over 140,000 Broncos sold and you've only been able to reserve one for about 2 weeks now. That's incredible- I love what that will do for the 4x4 market..... aftermarket companies will flourish, new clubs will form, more forums where I get to be a troll (haha, Just Kidding)....it's great for anyone who cares about the world of 4x4.

I think it's a phenomenal example of what could have been with the Chevy Blazer or the Defender...I just hope Chevy and LR are paying attention.
 

roving1

Well-known member
It's crazy- no doubt there will be some attrition, but even if it's as high as say 30%- that's still over 140,000 Broncos sold and you've only been able to reserve one for about 2 weeks now. That's incredible- I love what that will do for the 4x4 market..... aftermarket companies will flourish, new clubs will form, more forums where I get to be a troll (haha, Just Kidding)....it's great for anyone who cares about the world of 4x4.

I think it's a phenomenal example of what could have been with the Chevy Blazer or the Defender...I just hope Chevy and LR are paying attention.
First just to clarify I am not anti Bronco at all but these refundable deposits with no commitment are fairly meaningless converting to a total sales number. 30% of people probably wont have a job in 6 months let alone people that cancel otherwise or don't realize it's going to be the better part of 2 years before delivery happens. So yes its an impressive early barometer but saying they have already sold 140K Broncos just isn't how that works at all.

Second I hate the new Blazer, no, I loathe it. But no one cares that I loathe it or that it is a disappointment. The buying public love the stupid things and don't even blink at prices over 40K for them. They sold 100,000 of these stupid things during a once in a lifetime pandemic where we were shut down for a huge chunk of it. The Blazer already is a success and hating it doesn't change that fact at all. Probably will sell more units in one year and make more money even with crappier margins than the Defender will in a decade, as depressing as that is.
 

JeepColorado

Well-known member
First just to clarify I am not anti Bronco at all but these refundable deposits with no commitment are fairly meaningless converting to a total sales number. 30% of people probably wont have a job in 6 months let alone people that cancel otherwise or don't realize it's going to be the better part of 2 years before delivery happens. So yes its an impressive early barometer but saying they have already sold 140K Broncos just isn't how that works at all.

Second I hate the new Blazer, no, I loathe it. But no one cares that I loathe it or that it is a disappointment. The buying public love the stupid things and don't even blink at prices over 40K for them. They sold 100,000 of these stupid things during a once in a lifetime pandemic where we were shut down for a huge chunk of it. The Blazer already is a success and hating it doesn't change that fact at all. Probably will sell more units in one year and make more money even with crappier margins than the Defender will in a decade, as depressing as that is.

Ok, let's say they have 60% attrition of those early deposits- that's still selling 80,000 Broncos..... the equivalent of 2/3rds of the highest record Jaguar/Land Rover has ever sold across all models for a single year-- and that's just one Ford model.

My point is that there's a lot of people on here who say that even if the Defender is "compromised" as not a true-off-roader, it's because LR needs to make it more palatable to a broader mass of people because they need to sell a lot of them, that LR needs cash and can't afford a Niche low-volume vehicle.

To that I say- look at the Wrangler and now the Bronco- these are anything but low-volume- there is an INCREDIBLE appetite for retro-modern 4x4s (retro in looks- modern in comfort) and LR had what is arguably the pinnacle brand name in this entire market- DEFENDER- and threw it away on a over-complicated fax-simile copy of a Honda Element.

In the world of Uber-Lux sophisticated 4x4s they already have a halo vehicle- it's the Range Rover.

What they needed was to balance that out on the other side with a Halo vehicle- a representation of that other side of the brand that speaks to it's roots- the very things that made it famous- the market is CLEARLY there- and they had perhaps the best name plate in the world to do it with- as good as Wrangler, as good as Land Cruiser, but they blew it. My guess, outside looking in, is because Gerry and his fashionista's were a little too influential in the overall product.

I completely agree with you about the Blazer- I do think it's depressing that it'll sell so much more than the Defender, but I also think that supports my reasoning. Faced with that possibility LR had a choice- try to be more like the Blazer and join the world of vanilla-bland vehicles or stoke the fires of the enthusiast by bringing a live the reincarnation of one of the most identifiable 4x4s on the planet. The "safer" bet is to be more like the Blazer and shoot for the masses. The "riskier" , but more courageous bet would have been to come out with something more like the Bronco. To me, it's pretty clear which direction they went and I think history will prove they were wrong. It isn't even taking that much history- I think the design of the Bronco and the Grenadier alone have shown how the way Gerry went was wrong- sales numbers over time will confirm this.

I appreciate your thoughtful comments- even though I disagree with you.
 
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Buliwyf

Viking with a Hammer
If I'm after a plush SUV for mall crawling, why wouldn't I buy a cheaper Cherokee, Subaru, or Blazer instead?

Assume that I'm not a drug dealer or gang banger.
 

DieselRanger

Well-known member
If I'm after a plush SUV for mall crawling, why wouldn't I buy a cheaper Cherokee, Subaru, or Blazer instead?

Assume that I'm not a drug dealer or gang banger.
If all you want to do is mall crawl those would work just fine - or even a Tahoe or 'Burban. Great for hauling the family and doesnt signal that you have given up on life like a minivan.

However, if mall crawling is your thing, and you want to signal that you can afford to shop in any of the few stores that actually remain in malls any more, you're going to do that in a BMW X5/7, MB GLE, Audi Q, and now you have a couple options from JLR as well depending on how you see yourself. And just like any other SUV sold ever, most owners will never, ever take their SUVs off road, as much as they'd like to signal that they think they someday would. Four people on my block have always-freshly-polished Taco Turds or Heeps, that have never seen a speck of dirt between the lugs of their shiny KO2's, who have never unspooled their winch, and that with the f*cking Rocky Mountains a 20 minute drive from their front door. Jeeps here in Colorado are basically just mountain Miatas for most people. One guy on my block literally doesn't know how to use his winch, he just bought the Jeep because he wanted a Jeep and that "dealer special edition" had been sitting there awhile and he got a good deal. More people take their F150 Lariats and RAM 1500s off road than Jeepers it seems. Hardly ever see Raptors offroad, though. Those are for flat-brim hat wearing energy-drink swilling bros with tattoos on their arms they picked out of a book at the tattoo parlor.

But if you do want to go offroad and go almost anywhere you please, and you want a comfortable daily driver that cleans up nice for a night on the town, and the wife won't be ashamed or afraid to drive once in a while when *she* goes to the mall, you have an excellent choice in the Defender, as well as the D5 and RRS. And Il throw some props to the guy back in 2017 after the eclipse I followed out of the Laramie Mountains in Wyoming who wheeled his brand-new FFRR. Should a seen the looks on the faces of the guys in their Chevy trucks - two LR products must have looked like spaceships. Face it - there are only a few thousand people who regularly take their rigs off-road in the US on anything other than well-graded forest roads with occasional puddles.
 

soflorovers

Well-known member
Okay. I was just saying the change between the series III and Defender wasn't as drastic as the change between the old Defender and the new one in my opinion regardless of the reasons.

*edit.... 4 more pages!
I specifically made the Series v. 110 comparison because it was a radical shift from leaf springs to coil springs. Much like everyone complaining today about LR's switch from coils to air suspension, I imagine everyone at the time had issues with the changes. Regarding the nose on the new Defender, it's actually somewhat similar in terms of Series III v. 110; only difference is the grill was finally made flush on the 110. If anything, the New Defender is consistent with old LR design language as the center of the grill isn't flush with the headlights (Series 1-3). As I said, if you think the "Defender" started life in 1948, then this is a less radical front-end redesign in terms of grill relocation and overall shape than the Series III to 110. So with that said, I don't think the new Defender is anywhere as handsome as the previous Defender, but it's 100% a proper successor IMO.
 

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soflorovers

Well-known member
18 Month Wait for Bronco- demand is overwhelming Ford

Insiders say they've taken over 200,000 reservations thus far, but I'm sure they should have just watered it down and regurgitated the Ford Everest- there's just No Market for an enthusiast-driven 4x4

I can confidently tell you based on information I've received from those in new car franchise business that a very large number of those "reservations" were put in by dealer salespeople, dealer management, or families of those related to dealer staff for purposes of having a greater number of units allocated. Regarding the 18 month wait, it's a Ford... you'll be able to get one much sooner than that.
 

soflorovers

Well-known member
Did that not happen with the YJ to Tj Wrangler change as well? I don't know if people were up in arms about that?

Wait, Jeep corrected their square headlight mistake with the TJ.
That depends entirely on who you ask. I know for certain that some people welcomed the added comfort that came with the TJ, but there will always be those that are firmly against any form of change; the Jeep community is no different in that regard. In fact, most people forget that Jeep continued selling the JK alongside the JL for X.Y,Z reasons having to do mainly with the "enthusiast" base. I actually owned a YJ for about 2 years and didn't really have an opinion on the leaf springs - it was "adequate" as they say. Regarding the square headlights....you take that back! Jurassic Park still remains one of my favorite movies to date 😝
 
I think it's a phenomenal example of what could have been with the Chevy Blazer or the Defender...I just hope Chevy and LR are paying attention.
And Toyota. I bought my first and last vehicle from Toyota USA in 1969, a FJ40. When I had to source my 79 BJ40 from Canada I gave up on Toyota USA. Since then: 77 FJ45 pickup, 88 OJ50 MWB Bandeirante, but nothing from Toyota USA.
They could have sold diesel 40s and 70s and 80s in the USA till 2006 without serious emission issues but did they? No of course.
Imagine the value of an HZJ80 with 5spd and lockers on the used market.
 

JeepColorado

Well-known member
And Toyota. I bought my first and last vehicle from Toyota USA in 1969, a FJ40. When I had to source my 79 BJ40 from Canada I gave up on Toyota USA. Since then: 77 FJ45 pickup, 88 OJ50 MWB Bandeirante, but nothing from Toyota USA.
They could have sold diesel 40s and 70s and 80s in the USA till 2006 without serious emission issues but did they? No of course.
Imagine the value of an HZJ80 with 5spd and lockers on the used market.

So true! With the 4runner and the Land Cruiser both due for a significant redesign it'd be great to see them really knock it out of the park.
 

Blaise

Well-known member
Other than the 1 time I misremembered an article I read and said that the Defender's in Namibia had larger tires than stock, please enlighten me as to the actual facts
The vehicles were stock with the optional dealer-available standard sized Duratracs.

- I'm OK with the fact that the Jeep JLU rides substantially better on the road than previous Jeeps- I have no idea if you've driven one, but basically every review raves about how much better it is. And again, while I don't want to ride in a wagon cart- I don't need to be in the absolutely most plush vehicle I can possibly drive. If I did, I probably wouldn't be into adventurous hobbies/lifestyle in the first place.
-I've driven a JL for that exact reason, because of all the rave reviews. I was shocked at how badly it drove compared to my nearly 2000lb heavier LR3 on similar size/spec tires. Obviously it's more capable off road but it's also FAR smaller inside and less comfortable. I drive the most comfortable/plush vehicle I can which will still go anywhere because we like to do trips that involve thousands of miles of travel. No hate for the Wrangler, I think it's cool, just not the best choice for what we do. I'm more interested in traveling than I am suffering for the sake of showing off that I have 100% excess capability that I never use. It's like the guys who use a Dually F-350 diesel to haul a motorcycle. If you've got horses, yeah - it's the right tool.

Shocker, but guess which item below is not necessary for those who enjoy long distance travel:

-Comfort when I'm doing 1000 miles a weekend
-My wife being excited to do said 1000 miles per weekend
-Being able to cross Golden Spike

Anyway, off to Montana. Gonna be nice and comfy.
 

Todd n Natalie

Observer
That depends entirely on who you ask. I know for certain that some people welcomed the added comfort that came with the TJ, but there will always be those that are firmly against any form of change; the Jeep community is no different in that regard. In fact, most people forget that Jeep continued selling the JK alongside the JL for X.Y,Z reasons having to do mainly with the "enthusiast" base. I actually owned a YJ for about 2 years and didn't really have an opinion on the leaf springs - it was "adequate" as they say. Regarding the square headlights....you take that back! Jurassic Park still remains one of my favorite movies to date 😝
My question was just me pondering out loud. I really don't know what the reaction was to the coil vs spring debate on YJ / TJ's. I really never paid attention.

Okay. I will give you the Jurassic Park YJ. I'd roll a replica in a heartbeat. In fact I think there is two around town here.

 
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