New Defender Rage/Hate Thread

[Buliwyf]

Swiss army knife? I can do way more with a fullsize. SUV's are just four door cars that can go off road a bit. All I have to do is get past the firm ride, which is 100% in your head. And the size, which is just a skill level thing most of the time. It's my daily driver.

Fullsize +'s:
Cross the county south of me, in the spring. Defender on 32" AT's doesn't stand a chance on flooded dirt roads. Not much does.
Tow, with no excuses.
Haul a camper.
Actually have more than $3 to retire on, without turning to selling drugs or people.
Bounce off a Prius at 55mph and still have my legs.
Not have to worry about how an RTT is going to make me handle in the snow.
Carry gear and 5 people, without having to wrap them up in plastic and stack them.
Track perfectly straight on sand ripples, for a hundred miles.

It's not like I can't still go to starbucks and pretend to be a drug dealer like a LR owner, just because I hopped into the full size.

Seriously though, any kind of real towing or hauling, I'm not the least bit interested in a Bronco, Jeep, LR. Been there, done that. An RTT on either of those is as heavy as I'll go. Then I jump straight to an F250 designed to tow and haul.

 

[Buliwyf]

You people are dense as can be.

- Tow camper to campground and leave it there
- Drive tow vehicle to interesting places


You might fantasize about months-long African safaris where you live out of your vehicle, but you're completely delusional if you think even a tiny percentage of any of these brands is being used for that.

A max tow rating for a vehicle that does multiple things is incredibly valuable when you aren't living in an idiotic internet fantasy world where the only travel that matters is the one you dream about while angrily bashing at your keyboards.


The tow rating is going to sell a lot of Defenders. You can stick your fingers in your ears and shout LALALALALALA all you want, but that's a fact.

I'm still not getting how a giant motorhome fits into all of that?

 

[Carson G]

Swiss army knife? I can do way more with a fullsize. SUV's are just four door cars that can go off road a bit. All I have to do is get past the firm ride, which is 100% in your head. And the size, which is just a skill level thing most of the time. It's my daily driver.

Fullsize +'s:
Cross the county south of me, in the spring. Defender on 32" AT's doesn't stand a chance on flooded dirt roads. Not much does.
Tow, with no excuses.
Haul a camper.
Actually have more than $3 to retire on, without turning to selling drugs or people.
Bounce off a Prius at 55mph and still have my legs.
Not have to worry about how an RTT is going to make me handle in the snow.
Carry gear and 5 people, without having to wrap them up in plastic and stack them.
Track perfectly straight on sand ripples, for a hundred miles.

It's not like I can't still go to starbucks and pretend to be a drug dealer like a LR owner, just because I hopped into the full size.

Seriously though, any kind of real towing or hauling, I'm not the least bit interested in a Bronco, Jeep, LR. Been there, done that. An RTT on either of those is as heavy as I'll go. Then I jump straight to an F250 designed to tow and haul.

Have you driven a newer LR? I’ve driven multiple full size trucks from various makes and pretty much every Land Rover platform ever built. Every LR I’ve ever ridden in or drove were all better than any full size period. And having been wrecked into before your claim about safety is utter BS. If you haven’t owned a newer LR and a full size truck you have no experience to talk about ride quality and safety. It’s also not just ride quality that’s not all that’s better on a LR it’s the seating position and the steering is more precise the brakes feel better the gas pedal isn’t an on and off switch like some of the GM 3/4 tons I’ve driven. If you haven’t already driven a newer LR go drive one and then try and tell me it doesn’t drive way better than any full size.

Edit

If you have actually driven one then ignore everything I just said you’re entitled to your opinion and I’m entitled to mine.

 

[Buliwyf]

Driven them. Had to resist the temptation to look down at the dash to see if it had a flower holder like a VW Beetle does. Lol.

Bump. 6 more to go.

 

[JeepColorado]

I haul crap all the time with my Landy’s everything from farm equipment to cars and trucks, campers, boats. I’ve looked at full size pickup and I’ve spent quite a bit of time behind the steering wheel of full size pickups and I downright hate the way they drive. But if I need that much capability I have access to three full size pickups 2 3/4 tons and a 1/2 ton. I however don’t need full size capability on a day to day basis and I’d rather not deal with the negatives of a full size either. Also some of us need a vehicle that’s more than a play toy I can justify $60-70k on a vehicle that can do a lot of things well a heck of a lot easier than I can a vehicle that’s $50-55k that only does a couple things well.

This is purely my opinion. I’m a big fan of Swiss Army Knives. That’s one thing both new and old Defender’s have in common they’re decent at a lot of things.

If what you really want is a Swiss Army Knife- Wouldn't this be at least as good or even better than most any modern LR product?
- It's as small as an Evoque, but has more storage room
- You can tow with it
- It's already got any modern LR beat in aftermarket accessories

 

[soflorovers]

Definitely referring to re-plumbing coolers on the P400. Didn't see in the post where they said this was for the P300 only - the OP mentioned the coolers. I would imagine that LR would be cool and simply deny any warranty claims on the modified parts, i.e., the coolers and revised plumbing, but could see some dealers being pricks about it and denying any engine claim and forcing owners to appeal to JLR. Dealers don't make any money on warranty repairs and often lose money in terms of billable hours - they have to apply to corporate to get reimbursed and unless the A-team is on it in the shop, dealers often don't get reimbursed for the time it takes them to perform the repair, only the time the manual says it's supposed to take. I'm sure you're familiar with that process....

Volkswagen famously denied warranty claims for engine issues where owners DIY'd things like oil changes and didn't use VW spec motor oils - dealers were sometimes instructed to take samples for analysis in suspect cases and the policy had been blanket denial forcing owners to go to VAG and beg for dispensation. Now, VAG at the time was run by the Porsche Family **************, and VAG as the largest automobile manufacturer at the time had the pockets and the balls to do that - and that is absolutely an extreme example. Land Rover simply can't afford to be such pricks about it and my guess is there wouldn't be thousands of these kits installed annually, so it probably won't be a big deal assuming it's a good engineering job and a competent installer. I would hope that the shop that would do the work or provide the kit would back up their own engineering with a warranty, however - or better yet, work with some dealers to perform the mods directly the way some aftermarket tuners work with specific dealers to source certain mods on American muscle.

Here's the original post. Seems @Carson G can shed a little light on this. Specifically, OP asked about the coolers and the shop responded "radiators aren't moving, they're way back! ". Sounds to me like there were no coolers to be moved.

 

[soflorovers]

This is the first reference I've seen that the P300 doesn't have the coolers - can anyone elaborate on this? I don't have Instagram so I can't review the post to see what they said. I've got a P300 on order thinking it will be a sweet spot in the Defender line up for other reasons but this might be a really good bonus. I will tow a travel trailer with my new Defender but I went to great lengths to choose a diminutive European style trailer that I can tow with my Tdi powered D90 so the new 110 will easily handle it as well. My 1995 Eriba Puck weighs around 1200 lbs fully loaded for travel.

View attachment 601686

But for true overland type travel I would love to have a Patriot camper - I've very carefully looked them over at the Overland Expo events and they are truly impressive and well thought out.

View attachment 601687

I linked the original IG post right above. Based on the conversation in the comment section, they did not move any of the coolers. One can only assume (in addition to a parts diagram that I've seen floating around on this forum before) that the lesser models don't require the coolers.

 

[Corgi_express]

I'm still not getting how a giant motorhome fits into all of that?

Motorhome + Jeep = camper and a vehicle you can run off road

Defender 2 + Trailer = camper and a vehicle you can run off road


I am having a hard time fathoming why you are unable to comprehend the comparison here. They both fit a common use case - one that is only fit by the Wrangler or the Bronco if they are used as a toad. There are tradeoffs to both - driving a big motorhome with a toad is a pain in the neck because you can't maneuver well or really back up, but you get a bigger living space. Driving a Defender with a small Airstream or other travel trailer will be much more maneuverable. The place where they overlap is that, in both cases, people who go camping often want a way to go off road too, and the Defender solves that problem in a different way than the motorhome + toad. The fact that motorhome + off-road capable toad is so incredibly popular is evidence that your belief that nobody will tow with a Defender is unfounded, and that your strawman about off road towing is irrelevant.

FWIW one of the most commonly hyped things about the Gladiator was its excellent tow rating for its class, for exactly the same reason. The RV market is hot right now, and the Defender's ability to tap into that market is awesome. A lot of people are moving away from those big motor homes, for greater flexibility in where and how they camp, and a Defender with a trailer will be an appealing option.

 

[Carson G]

Here's the original post. Seems @Carson G can shed a little light on this. Specifically, OP asked about the coolers and the shop responded "radiators aren't moving, they're way back! ". Sounds to me like there were no coolers to be moved.

I’m not entirely sure which ones don’t have the AUX coolers. My assumption is it’s one of the diesels. The winch mount instructions I read through didn’t say which ones had the coolers only that not all of them do.

 

[JeepColorado]

Motorhome + Jeep = camper and a vehicle you can run off road

Defender 2 + Trailer = camper and a vehicle you can run off road


I am having a hard time fathoming why you are unable to comprehend the comparison here. They both fit a common use case - one that is only fit by the Wrangler or the Bronco if they are used as a toad. There are tradeoffs to both - driving a big motorhome with a toad is a pain in the neck because you can't maneuver well or really back up, but you get a bigger living space. Driving a Defender with a small Airstream or other travel trailer will be much more maneuverable. The place where they overlap is that, in both cases, people who go camping often want a way to go off road too, and the Defender solves that problem in a different way than the motorhome + toad. The fact that motorhome + off-road capable toad is so incredibly popular is evidence that your belief that nobody will tow with a Defender is unfounded, and that your strawman about off road towing is irrelevant.

FWIW one of the most commonly hyped things about the Gladiator was its excellent tow rating for its class, for exactly the same reason. The RV market is hot right now, and the Defender's ability to tap into that market is awesome. A lot of people are moving away from those big motor homes, for greater flexibility in where and how they camp, and a Defender with a trailer will be an appealing option.

What you are failing to grasp from that entire conversation is that the Defender's Max Tow capability is being touted as a big win..... I asked a practical point to refute that this is such a win- namely- how many people while overlanding and backcountry adventuring are actually towing that much anyway? I mean, after the ability to tow a teardrop or a Patriot Camper, which a G-Wagon or Wrangler could do- how much tow capacity do you really need?

....And even if they are towing that much off-road- wouldn't that make traction a key issue- somewhere the Defender looses out to the G-Wagon, Gladiator, Rubicon.

If you need a vehicle to tow that much ON the road- such as a boat on the weekends etc.... there are better options in the Power Wagon, Ford F-250 Tremor or even the new Chevy Tahoe Z71

 

[mpinco]

I'm a cheap bastard (I know, you run Land Rovers so ******) but I am not going to dedicate financial resources to multiple trucks for specific purposes. I have other toys to maintain. I expect, as a minimum, a candidate to be equal to or better than my HD 2011 LR4, 400hp/400lbft, Rhino hitch AND be very capable off road. That includes towing, from a light duty trailer up to and including at least 7000lbs and a Class IV hitch. The camping trailer is "base camp" while dry camping in the intermountain west. The tow vehicle has to be off road capable.

I'm not seeing that from LR today. Well, not completely true. The Range Rover LWB with 5.0 V8 has part of the functionality but I think it fails on a class IV hitch. .......Then there are those 21/22" wheels and the large price tag. The Defender falls short on engine and class IV.

 

[Blaise]

Re: JeepColorado

And how many people actually need capability that's at the level of a Wrangler Rubicon?

There are better tow vehicles.
There are better pure-off road vehicles.

Sometimes, people want to have something that does more than one thing decently.

The power wagon, tremor, wrangler, 4runner, etc etc etc are all fine choices. JUST DONT YOU DARE SAY THE DEFENDER IS A DECENT CHOICE OR EVERYONE WILL BE UPSET

That includes towing, from a light duty trailer up to and including at least 7000lbs and a Class IV hitch. I'm not seeing that from LR today.

My god. Do we need to explain that 8200lb is more than 7000lb now? Or are you going to keep ranting about how you think tow ratings are fake news based on your 'common sense.'

 

[mpinco]

.......
My god. Do we need to explain that 8200lb is more than 7000lb now? Or are you going to keep ranting about how you think tow ratings are fake news based on your 'common sense.'

What part of Class IV did you miss? Why class IV? Well here is one example, a Lance 2285 with a GVWR of 7,000 lbs (OK, that should work) and a hitch dry weight of 635 lbs. That is without ANY options and without provisions for dry camping. You are going to come in at close to 900lb tongue weight with just standard options and normal loading. And Lance is a light weight trailer.

Maybe someday someone will offer a Defender class IV hitch to address the current shortcomings of the factory option. I've also hear a V8 is in the pipeline.

 

[Corgi_express]

Sometimes, people want to have something that does more than one thing decently.

As long as my Defender can both drive off-road AND haul dead sheep in the back, I don't see why anyone would dare to think about using it for anything else

 

[JeepColorado]

Re: JeepColorado

And how many people actually need capability that's at the level of a Wrangler Rubicon?

There are better tow vehicles.
There are better pure-off road vehicles.

Sometimes, people want to have something that does more than one thing decently.

The power wagon, tremor, wrangler, 4runner, etc etc etc are all fine choices. JUST DONT YOU DARE SAY THE DEFENDER IS A DECENT CHOICE OR EVERYONE WILL BE UPSET



My god. Do we need to explain that 8200lb is more than 7000lb now? Or are you going to keep ranting about how you think tow ratings are fake news based on your 'common sense.'

View attachment 601871

You are confusing me with someone else- I have no issue with published tow ratings. My simple point is that you were hyping it up that the Max tow rating is such a big deal for the LR- I'm just asking the question of how many people are exceeding or even getting near their max tow rating for a vehicle they are choosing primarily for it's ability to overland/backcountry adventure. If you are choosing a vehicle primarily because of it's towing ability- there are better choices.